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Murrdox wrote:

When it comes right down to it though, you're not being a "smart customer" when you buy from a recaster. You're stealing. You can rationalize it however you want, but you're stealing. Such transactions are not victimless crimes. They hurt the very business that you're so passionate about. If you're OK with that in your own mind, then there you go. I'm not here to convince you not to steal. I'm just here to tell you to own up to it, and don't sell anyone else in this hobby some story about how it's not really stealing, or you're not hurting anybody, or there's nothing wrong with it.

There's a REASON copying stuff like this is illegal. It's wrong.

Except, it's not stealing, according to the US Attorney's Office anyway. Morals will vary by individual but throwing words like "illegal" and "stealing" that are actually tied to laws is a different story. Please research/know your facts before posting incorrect information.

Murrdox wrote:


When it comes right down to it though, you're not being a "smart customer" when you buy from a recaster. You're stealing.

No you're not. Stealing is illegal almost anywhere. Buying knock-offs for personal use is legal in most places.

Stealing is not the same thing everywhere. Heck you can have the same thing be illegal and stealing for some people and normal for others.

And now we've come down to arguing semantics about what "stealing" is and whether or not such activity is legal or not in the specific area in which you live.

Having sex with 12 year old girls might be legal in some parts of the world. That doesn't mean it's right and not morally repugnant.

The Chinese government doesn't pay for ANY software pretty much. They pirate everything! Obviously it's not illegal, the government is going it! Does that mean it's right and it's not stealing?

You know the designs are stolen. You know what you're buying. Whether or not it fits a crime in the specific area you live in doesn't really matter. You've already justified it to yourself. Either you've justified it to yourself to somehow think what you're doing is OK, or you think it's a wrong so slight that it doesn't matter and you're fine with it.

The rationalization will never end.

Stealing is what the law tells you it is.

I would like to make a quick point here to clarify a couple of terms.

First, lets address one thing. Illegal !=immoral. These are not the same thing, and they cannot automatically be equated. Some things that are immoral are illegal and vice versa, but this is not always true, nevermind the subjectivity of morality in the first place.

Second, piracy is not theft/stealing. It's often referred to as such, because it's emotional and easy to label, but it is not the same thing, just as Battery is not Trespassing. If someone goes into a game store, grabs a model off the shelf, and runs out without paying, that's stealing. You have physically removed an actual item from the benefit and use of the original owner and they have a verifiable loss to record. Piracy has no such direct recordable loss. Violation of copyright is not theft, it's not stealing, it's violation of copyright. There's a reason they're not classed under the same laws or punished the same way or investigated by the same agencies.

Murrdox wrote:
And now we've come down to arguing semantics about what "stealing" is and whether or not such activity is legal or not in the specific area in which you live.

Having sex with 12 year old girls might be legal in some parts of the world. That doesn't mean it's right and not morally repugnant.

The Chinese government doesn't pay for ANY software pretty much. They pirate everything! Obviously it's not illegal, the government is going it! Does that mean it's right and it's not stealing?

You know the designs are stolen. You know what you're buying. Whether or not it fits a crime in the specific area you live in doesn't really matter. You've already justified it to yourself. Either you've justified it to yourself to somehow think what you're doing is OK, or you think it's a wrong so slight that it doesn't matter and you're fine with it.

The rationalization will never end.

Why wouldn't it be "OK" if the law allows it? The only reason it wouldn't be OK is if I'm doing something illegal, which I'm not. Please don't assume that your particular mores apply to the greater world, you'd be surprised how much in the minority you would be compared to the majority of the population on the planet. If you feel that something like this is wrong, from your particular upbringing/school of thought, that's all well and good but realize your particular world view is a microcosm when compared to the word.

Copyright infringement is not theft. I don't know where you are getting this concept from but a recaster is in no way prohibiting GW from selling their product, theft would mean that they snuck into the factory and took all the molds, designs and files to permanently deprive GW of their creation. I get that you think this is stealing but the law clearly disagrees with your interpretation.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I would like to make a quick point here to clarify a couple of terms.

First, lets address one thing. Illegal !=immoral. These are not the same thing, and they cannot automatically be equated. Some things that are immoral are illegal and vice versa, but this is not always true, nevermind the subjectivity of morality in the first place.

Second, piracy is not theft/stealing. It's often referred to as such, because it's emotional and easy to label, but it is not the same thing, just as Battery is not Trespassing. If someone goes into a game store, grabs a model off the shelf, and runs out without paying, that's stealing. You have physically removed an actual item from the benefit and use of the original owner and they have a verifiable loss to record. Piracy has no such direct recordable loss. Violation of copyright is not theft, it's not stealing, it's violation of copyright. There's a reason they're not classed under the same laws or punished the same way or investigated by the same agencies.

Thank you. I'm pretty sure that's why stealing gets thrown around so much with recasts because of the emotional label. But Vaktathi is right, there is a clear difference, hence why IP infringement usually results in a fine with no jail time (usually), where as stealing/theft is usually a minimum jail sentence with no fine.


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 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Talys wrote:


Yup. I personally don't care if the government doesn't get sales tax fir several reasons:

1. If the store shipped it to an out of jurisdiction customer, or I bought it from an out of jurisdiction vendor, it would be tax free. Just like if you bought it from an out of country vendor.

2. If I went to an out of jurisdiction event and bought product or prepaid gift cards, that would be tax free.

3. I actually practically never do this as I don't walk around with hundreds or thousands of dollars of cash. But on the odd occasion that I do, the store owner asks me if I need a receipt ("You don't need a receipt, do you?"), and if I say no, I always happen to get some money back. I don't even ask for it. It just happens. Certainly, that isn't a crime.

4. Whether my hairdresser reports their tip, or my waiter, or the FLGS storeowner... That just isn't my business.

Edit: To add to the list, if I pay a gardener, piano teacher, handyman, or any other of a long list of services and negotiate a tax price (quite often, THEY ask for it), my suspicion may be that they aren't remitting the tax, but this may nit be the case, and either way, it isn't my problem, is it? Even if someone like that provides me a service, I don't want the receipt, because what am I going to do with it? And if I guy models, likewise, I tell them to keep or destroy the receipt (unless it's credit card) because I there is a problem, they don't need me to drag the receipt back.

So if there's a way around a law in existence, it is ok to disregard said law?
Paying someone cash for services and you not knowing what they do tax-wise later is a little different from someone asking "Do you want a receipt?" {Wink,wink} and you know exactly what they're up to.

Tax evasion is fine, but recasts are wrong. Now who's rationalizing?

That's the nature of morality though, different people have different lines in the sand.

For some, they're ok with what they consider mild tax evasion, but not buying recasts. Someone else may view speeding as ok, but take issue with even the slightest attempt to avoid paying tax, etc, etc.

As I said a few pages back, it all boils down to either you're ok with the morality of buying recasts or you're not, either is fine. What I won't stand for is people trying to cast themselves as some sort of moral superior on the topic when they're possibly guilty of what others may view as even greater transgressions of morality simply because their line in the sand is somewhere different.

It's not impossible that China or Russia would crack down on recasters/ piracy, just highly unlikely.

I remember from the mid 80s and into the early 90s building up a massive music collection due to Dubai's music shops selling the pirate "Thomsun Originals" cassettes. Buy 10 tapes and get a free case for them. Pirate VHS copies of films were freely available not to mention genuine 'ticking' Rolex watches.

Then, it must have been late 90s, I think the UAE signed up to some trade agreements as part of their expansion and that type of trade was virtually killed off.

As I said, unlikely to happen with China, they are just too big.

Nowadays, being older and wiser I won't knowingly purchase any thing recast. I just believe that those who create deserve the rewards. If the item is too expensive, they don't get my business and I go for a cheaper 'counts as' or do without.

A naive point of view? Possibly.
A bit Black and White? Yup.

But hey, I'm the only one who moves to the beat of my wargaming drum.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 Talys wrote:


Yup. I personally don't care if the government doesn't get sales tax fir several reasons:

1. If the store shipped it to an out of jurisdiction customer, or I bought it from an out of jurisdiction vendor, it would be tax free. Just like if you bought it from an out of country vendor.

2. If I went to an out of jurisdiction event and bought product or prepaid gift cards, that would be tax free.

3. I actually practically never do this as I don't walk around with hundreds or thousands of dollars of cash. But on the odd occasion that I do, the store owner asks me if I need a receipt ("You don't need a receipt, do you?"), and if I say no, I always happen to get some money back. I don't even ask for it. It just happens. Certainly, that isn't a crime.

4. Whether my hairdresser reports their tip, or my waiter, or the FLGS storeowner... That just isn't my business.

Edit: To add to the list, if I pay a gardener, piano teacher, handyman, or any other of a long list of services and negotiate a tax price (quite often, THEY ask for it), my suspicion may be that they aren't remitting the tax, but this may nit be the case, and either way, it isn't my problem, is it? Even if someone like that provides me a service, I don't want the receipt, because what am I going to do with it? And if I guy models, likewise, I tell them to keep or destroy the receipt (unless it's credit card) because I there is a problem, they don't need me to drag the receipt back.

So if there's a way around a law in existence, it is ok to disregard said law?
Paying someone cash for services and you not knowing what they do tax-wise later is a little different from someone asking "Do you want a receipt?" {Wink,wink} and you know exactly what they're up to.

Tax evasion is fine, but recasts are wrong. Now who's rationalizing?

They are BOTH wrong. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm just saying: be honest about it.

If you like recasts, say, "I like recasts, even though I know it's theft of IP". Great, good on ya. (this is not me, simply because I like supporting the artists and companies that employ them; I would rather not own something I feel is overpriced, than to buy a knockoff)

If you like to pay cash and avoid sales tax, say, "I hate paying sales tax, so I avoid it whenever possible, even though I know that I'm breaking the law." Good on ya too. (this is not me. I'm happy to violate the spirit of the law, but never the letter of it. In other words, I may be ok with doing something morally wrong, but not ok with being legally wrong.)

If you jump through hoops to avoid sales tax, like buying out of jurisdiction, that's fine too. Just say, "I hate paying sales tax, but I don't want to break the law, so I'll go out of my way to avoid it." (mostly, this is me; if there's a LEGAL way to avoid tax without *ME* breaking the law -- that's also not inconvenient -- I'm happy to do so, even knowing that it's ethically wrong and that I'm harming my community)

Rationalizing is when you say, "GW charges too much so they wouldn't get my sale, so they aren't losing anything from me buying from a recaster, so there's nothing wrong with it at all." Because factually, that's untrue.

See, I am not sitting on a high horse at all. I happily acknowledge that I'm morally corrupt of character (though by all accounts, a pretty nice guy) I'm unwilling to break the law of the land, because I believe in the advantage of living in a nation of laws. But I'm perfectly happy to take every advantage possible within it. There are limits, to that of course, but generally speaking, that's me

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alphaecho wrote:


It's not impossible that China or Russia would crack down on recasters/ piracy, just highly unlikely.

It IS illegal to do such things in China and Russia, and GW, Microsoft and any number of other companies enforce their IP regularly there and stop counterfeiters. China and Russia just don't go out looking for counterfeiters, but that also has to do with the injured party not being Chinese or Russian.

The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.

I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.

In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.

 Big Mac wrote:
The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.

I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.

In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.

My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

 Rippy wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.

I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.

In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.

My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

I would disagree. I have a friend who buys lots of Tau recasts and some of those recasts are pretty damn good.

I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.

I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.

I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger?
The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.

 Rippy wrote:
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow

 Rippy wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.

I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.

In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.

My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

A lot of it depends very much on the specific kit, newer kits, and those that are relatively simple blocks (like Spartans) are usually pretty good from FW. If you've never had to deal with a FW Hydra, count your lucky stars, because they were atrocious, and yes, the recasts I've seen have all generally been much better quality.




Another thing I'd like to mention is that often recasters are the best source of OOP models. Where is one going to find Kasrkin? GW doesn't make them anymore. You can either go for an expensive 2nd hand set on ebay, or a recaster. Either way, GW is no longer selling that product.

 Korinov wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow

Ooh, what if he has? If it was painted, he'd never have known.

Now, there's a thought to keep one awake at night!

 SirDonlad wrote:
I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.

I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.

I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger?
The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.

I think that IRL, it is much less of an issue than in forums where people are bored, killing time in the world's longest Costco line (me right now). When was the last time at someone got worked up over a recast model on a gaming table?

Anyways, I hold no animosity or disdain for those who choose that route; I do lack respect for those who try to morally justify it, because, hey man, if you wanna be a gangster, have some balls and show your cuts.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow

Ooh, what if he has? If it was painted, he'd never have known.

Now, there's a thought to keep one awake at night!

Actually I have played against recasted models. They were of great quality. Though they were not better than the Forge World Legitimate ones. Not worse either (at least what I could tell from the paint job). My argument was that recasters arent better, not that they are worse. I have never had to deal with hydras though. No doubt the illegal recasts have the potential to be "better".


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 SirDonlad wrote:
I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.

I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.

I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger?
The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.

The venom I think stems from the fact that if everyone just got recasts, there would be no real product. So while many people strut around acting like they are the bees knees and entitled super cool black knights, shoving it to GDubs high prices, the reality is everyone is picking up their slack. If people didn't buy direct from Forge World, they wouldn't make anymore. I think there is just a certain entitlement, arrogance and cockiness with many of those who buy recasts (see Lance's attitude in this thread as an example.)

 Talys wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.

Well, let's call a spade a spade. For a hundred bucks, you get a starter box with lots of models (which have fantastic hobby value), rules, dice, and templates. For $700-$1000 you can put together a pretty decent army. If you're shrewd, you can spend half that buying used. On top of that, prepared to spend serious time getting some models to look cool if that's your thing. That's the entry fee to the 40k club.

Now, you can say, "OMG that's crazy", because for a tiny fraction of that you can play StarCraft until your head explodes.

But, on the other hand, there is an endless list of entertainment that makes 40k look like the deal of a lifetime. People pay that much for a couple of hockey or football tickets without thinking twice. A season pass on a ski hill can be $1,500 or more, and you still need a crap ton of gear, possibly hotel rooms, and all that. A golf club membership can rock $20,000 a year (or more), and it's the same 18 holes and restaurant, y'know?

So, yes, relative to some things, it's expensive, but it's hardly had "insanely unreasonable barriers to entry". It's just a game where you play with a lot of toy soldiers, all of which take a respectable amount of time and money to get going.

Getting back to recasts -- recasts don't really fix that to any real degree. Pick any army other than Imperial Knights, GW will still be cheaper for the stuff in plastic, and you'll still not get out of spending $600+ to build a respectable army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Reinokarite wrote:

This proxys are more illigal in the eyes of GW shop owners than recasts, because they can't tell recast from original if it's have been painted and can tell you instantly that your proxy is not belong in their shop.

On the topic: piracy is present and only become stronger as GW drops production wxpences but refuses to drop prices. I think that the rules should be free, they could put their rules on their website and STILL sell their codeces for fluff and illustrations. Hell it is known fact that people are wwilling to buy even illustratin books without ane fluff. Free rules would attract more people into a game. An more: they could FAQed codeces more often, it is not expencive, it is not even timeconsuming, but they refuse.

I personally bought my own copy of codex half year after playing my first game, if I could not play without it, I simply would not start to play at all.

I've actually not seen a store tell someone to remove either a proxy or a recast before. Mind you, I don't really go to the GW store much. What you describe as changes are things that many people would absolutely love, but it won't ever happen with GW. There are lots of companies with games that do have free rules though.

Personally, I think a compromise would be significantly cheaper eBook rules (which have no printing or distribution cost, other than, possibly, the iTunes store).

IF that starter box has races you are even interested in. With condensed rules. To actually start playing anything it's 100+ for the books alone. I am not talking about the costs to keep playing or to expand. I am talking about the costs of finding out that you want to play at all.

I have seen Finecast Zoanthrope recasts for $5 a piece. 15 for 3 zoanthropes or 50+ for GWs 3 zoanthropes OR venomthrope kit. GW will NEVER be less expensive then the recasters. The recasters are using normal mark up margins for cost of production. GW switched from metal to plastic and then INCREASED the price tag of their product.


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 Rippy wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.

I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.

In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.

My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

But could they do a comparable job for a fraction of the costs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.

People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow

Ooh, what if he has? If it was painted, he'd never have known.

Now, there's a thought to keep one awake at night!

Actually I have played against recasted models. They were of great quality. Though they were not better than the Forge World Legitimate ones. Not worse either (at least what I could tell from the paint job). My argument was that recasters arent better, not that they are worse. I have never had to deal with hydras though. No doubt the illegal recasts have the potential to be "better".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDonlad wrote:
I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.

I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.

I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger?
The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.

The venom I think stems from the fact that if everyone just got recasts, there would be no real product. So while many people strut around acting like they are the bees knees and entitled super cool black knights, shoving it to GDubs high prices, the reality is everyone is picking up their slack. If people didn't buy direct from Forge World, they wouldn't make anymore. I think there is just a certain entitlement, arrogance and cockiness with many of those who buy recasts (see Lance's attitude in this thread as an example.)

In fact, I have mentioned several times in this thread that all my models are purchased plastic from Ebay. I have never contacted a recaster. I purchased a single model from someone on this board otherwise. My attitude is against GWs business practices which every consumer should have for a company that abuses it's customer base. If GW had more respect for us, I would have more respect for them.

The reality is that there are levels of inconvenience to buying from recasters and auctioning stuff on ebay. But the price gap and the inconvenience of dealing with GW itself is so high that those secondary markets flourish. If GW did it's part to work not just with, but FOR their consumer base then the recasters 4-8 week shipping times, questionable quality and no recourse for bad product/customer service would not be worth the effort/risk to money spent.

If you charge a fair price for a fair product with easy access to purchase said product then why would anyone even bother to look for recasters?

Basically, why are you NOT mad at GW?

They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.

Oh, another little jibe at another poster from the guy who screams "invalid" every time he perceives a slight against him?

Perhaps you should stop flamebaiting and get a proper argument?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, another little jibe at another poster from the guy who screams "invalid" every time he perceives a slight against him?

Perhaps you should stop flamebaiting and get a proper argument?

Look at your response and take your own advice.

I'm content in the validity of my points.

All I've seen from you can be condensed into "I'm better than you because I don't buy recasts, something something you must be poor, something something no, that other thing I do which can be considered equally morally shaky isn't because I feel differently about that thing. You should all feel bad and are bad people."

Now I'm annoyed for stooping to your level, but feth it.

So, is the land raider I scratch-built from a pizza box an IP violation that needs to be reported and destroyed? And what if I decide to sell that creation on e-bay?

If its not, I don't see any reason why a "recast" land raider by non-GW producer is any more wrong.

 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.

Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.

I think GW has their head up their as$ charging us $0.25 for finecrap model, $1 for the box it came in, $2 for the shipping and handeling, $3 for the horribly written rules when a recast can sell for just $0.25 and cut out all that crap GW marks up on a plastic model.

At first I was a fan boy buying GW models and their full price. Then after being ridiculed for paying $35 for a box of toy soldiers that I had to put together and paint. I finally realized, I really wasted so much money and really need to sell just to recover some money back.

I have differing thought, when a company like GW makes rubbish resin kit as well as FW and charge a massive premium for the experience and after several attempts to rectify the issue with no luck leading thus eventually getting a refund without having that product is exceptionally poor for the customer.

However when you get onto one of these sites and get perfectly recasted product first time after the recasters have fixed up the mistakes that GW and FW should have done, and folks are stunned that they (the recasters) get business.

In the end recasters get business because folks pay good money to get perfect product the first time they purchase, and in relative terms, the recasted stuff is much cheaper and the quality is substantially better.

GW and FW haven't a clue.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.

Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.

I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves