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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Long Jetty, The place is a dump

 Filch wrote:
I think GW has their head up their as$ charging us $0.25 for finecrap model, $1 for the box it came in, $2 for the shipping and handeling, $3 for the horribly written rules when a recast can sell for just $0.25 and cut out all that crap GW marks up on a plastic model.

At first I was a fan boy buying GW models and their full price. Then after being ridiculed for paying $35 for a box of toy soldiers that I had to put together and paint. I finally realized, I really wasted so much money and really need to sell just to recover some money back.


Here is something to consider Finecast is as nearly expensive as the price of international gold bullion, go figure.

"Ultramarines are Wusses".... Chapter Master Achaylus Bonecrusher

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Stormonu wrote:
So, is the land raider I scratch-built from a pizza box an IP violation that needs to be reported and destroyed? And what if I decide to sell that creation on e-bay?

If its not, I don't see any reason why a "recast" land raider by non-GW producer is any more wrong.


The difference is that one is a single custom-made model that uses GW's ideas but isn't a direct copy of the GW kit, while the other is an exact copy of the original sold in large numbers as a for-profit business. And technically selling your scratch-built LR is illegal and GW could in theory take legal action against you over it. It's just not worth their time to go after someone selling a $1 pile of scrap cardboard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Achaylus72 wrote:
Here is something to consider Finecast is as nearly expensive as the price of international gold bullion, go figure.


Yes, raw materials are cheaper per unit of weight than finished products. What else is news?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rippy wrote:
I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting?


It's because people don't like it when you question the idea that they're entitled to have GW products no matter what it takes to get them. A future in which they say "too expensive, guess I won't have it" is just too horrifying to contemplate.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/08 03:09:17


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Long Jetty, The place is a dump

I am on a very restricted budget, so if I want stuff that I can get up to 50% cheaper and 100% better quality from a recaster then I'll do it and damn anyone who says otherwise.

"Ultramarines are Wusses".... Chapter Master Achaylus Bonecrusher

 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.


Lets try not making personal assumptions about people you don't know over the internet. Instead, why not take what I am saying at face value. Apple, bad company, treats people like dirt, run by a megalomaniac (until he died). Microsoft, a much better company. Good to decent customer service. Generally well received products or poor products that see improvement later. Run by a guy who donates vast amounts of his wealth to various charities and is giving his kids none of the money when he dies. I gladly buy windows products. Google is another great company. When the NSA told google to give them access to all their data google told them to f off.

Based on this, I don't buy a iphone, but I would gladly buy a android or windows phone. Oh look! I own a windows phone.

As someone who fully believes in capitalism, I get involved with the voting of my dollars. If GW treats people like dirt, I support secondary markets popping up. Somebody needs to teach them a lesson. If it's pirates, then I applaud them. Again, I have a crap ton of models I have purchased in a relatively short time. Just ordered a nice big battlefoam case to hold it in. All pluck foam so I can custom fit all my kit bashes in there as I go. Gladly paid Battlefoam. Good company. Good product. Fair price for the quality.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rippy wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.


Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.

I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves


There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/08 03:27:16



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




In an ideal world, GW would price stuff fairly and stop trying to make rules just to boost model sales too..

A future in which people settle for 'too expensuve, I won't have it' is about as likely as a future in which corporations settle for 'unethical, I won't do it'.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Achaylus72 wrote:
I am on a very restricted budget, so if I want stuff that I can get up to 50% cheaper and 100% better quality from a recaster then I'll do it and damn anyone who says otherwise.


Here's a better idea: buy something else and just accept that you can't afford GW products. This isn't a basic need like food or water that you can't possibly live without, and would be justified in stealing if you had no other option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote:
There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.


No, there is a simple truth: buying recasts is wrong, and no amount of selfish rationalization will change that. It's only a "deep and complex" issue if you assume that people are entitled to own GW products no matter what it takes to get them, and "find some other hobby" is not an option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 03:45:37


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Once again I would like to point out that piracy != theft, and in the case of a consumer being unable/unwilling to pay the original prices, there can't be a directly correlated loss to the original producer.

Not putting any sort of moral compass on anything here, just trying to put things back in the correct perspective. What we're talking about is a violation of ownership rights (more akin to trespass) than theft.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 03:50:00


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in au
Ancient Chaos Terminator





'Straya... Mate.

Lance845 wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.


Lets try not making personal assumptions about people you don't know over the internet. Instead, why not take what I am saying at face value. Apple, bad company, treats people like dirt, run by a megalomaniac (until he died). Microsoft, a much better company. Good to decent customer service. Generally well received products or poor products that see improvement later. Run by a guy who donates vast amounts of his wealth to various charities and is giving his kids none of the money when he dies. I gladly buy windows products. Google is another great company. When the NSA told google to give them access to all their data google told them to f off.

Based on this, I don't buy a iphone, but I would gladly buy a android or windows phone. Oh look! I own a windows phone.

As someone who fully believes in capitalism, I get involved with the voting of my dollars. If GW treats people like dirt, I support secondary markets popping up. Somebody needs to teach them a lesson. If it's pirates, then I applaud them. Again, I have a crap ton of models I have purchased in a relatively short time. Just ordered a nice big battlefoam case to hold it in. All pluck foam so I can custom fit all my kit bashes in there as I go. Gladly paid Battlefoam. Good company. Good product. Fair price for the quality.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rippy wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.


Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.

I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves


There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.

Excuse me? I am the other side of the discussion mate. I have brought many points to the disucussion, though just because you disagree with them, you claim I don't bring anything. Also your comparing of buying samsung over apple proves you actually don't know what you are talking about here. This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?

 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Rippy wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.


Lets try not making personal assumptions about people you don't know over the internet. Instead, why not take what I am saying at face value. Apple, bad company, treats people like dirt, run by a megalomaniac (until he died). Microsoft, a much better company. Good to decent customer service. Generally well received products or poor products that see improvement later. Run by a guy who donates vast amounts of his wealth to various charities and is giving his kids none of the money when he dies. I gladly buy windows products. Google is another great company. When the NSA told google to give them access to all their data google told them to f off.

Based on this, I don't buy a iphone, but I would gladly buy a android or windows phone. Oh look! I own a windows phone.

As someone who fully believes in capitalism, I get involved with the voting of my dollars. If GW treats people like dirt, I support secondary markets popping up. Somebody needs to teach them a lesson. If it's pirates, then I applaud them. Again, I have a crap ton of models I have purchased in a relatively short time. Just ordered a nice big battlefoam case to hold it in. All pluck foam so I can custom fit all my kit bashes in there as I go. Gladly paid Battlefoam. Good company. Good product. Fair price for the quality.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rippy wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.

I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.


Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.

I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves


There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.

Excuse me? I am the other side of the discussion mate. I have brought many points to the disucussion, though just because you disagree with them, you claim I don't bring anything. Also your comparing of buying samsung over apple proves you actually don't know what you are talking about here. This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Hey Rippy, if people make knock off Iphones using IOS with jail breaked phones to access their market place and pay the producers of the software while cutting apple out of the picture. Hive fives all around. I care not a single ounce what happens to Apple because they treat people like dirt. If someone could produce knock offs of their product as easily as making a mold I would give them a thumbs up all the way just like I do for the recasters.

I get the difference. They are a crap company that overprices a product and mistreats their consumer base. feth um. Zero craps given. Hopefully (though I have little hope for it) it would be the wake up call that they need to change their business practices. Failing that, any way you, the consumer, can stick it to them. Do so.

It's already common sense that morality and "right" and "wrong" are all part of a sliding scale in which ymmv, Illegal does not = immoral, and a consumer who wants to spend their money will spend their money how they want. If that means a secondary market and they are okay with that, for whatever reason, then they will.

What can GW do to retain their customers? That is the only question with an answer that has any bearing on the reality of the situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote:
There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.


No, there is a simple truth: buying recasts is wrong, and no amount of selfish rationalization will change that. It's only a "deep and complex" issue if you assume that people are entitled to own GW products no matter what it takes to get them, and "find some other hobby" is not an option.


I assume that nobody is entitled to anything. I believe that people will do what they want up to the point that they are willing to deal with the consequences. GW is willing to over charge you because they don't see a consequence. Recasters are willing to produce the product, because making a new website is easy. And people will buy from recasters because GW is a douche. Thats it. Right or wrong is not a factor. That is the reality of the situation. I would feel bad for GW if GW did anything deserving of affection. In my opinion they don't. So I applaud the people sticking it to them. Keep up the good work!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/08 05:27:41



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in ro
Dakka Veteran




 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 05:29:44


 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Outside of the basic "RECASTS ARE WRONG! :( " argument there appears to be one other.

"You should feel bad that GW is being infringed upon."

To which I ask.. Why?

Why, if GW participates in crap business practices and price hikes their product to no end, should I care that they are being infringed upon?


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in au
Ancient Chaos Terminator





'Straya... Mate.

LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.

 
   
Made in ro
Dakka Veteran




 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.


Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.
   
Made in au
Ancient Chaos Terminator





'Straya... Mate.

I give up on trying to talk to Lance haha. He doesn't know what he is talking about. Jailbreaking giving producers profits? Ha. K mate. You have proven that you are not moral on this subject, you don't understand the argument, and to be honest, you might not even understand the topic.

 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.


As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Rippy wrote:
I give up on trying to talk to Lance haha. He doesn't know what he is talking about. Jailbreaking giving producers profits? Ha. K mate. You have proven that you are not moral on this subject, you don't understand the argument, and to be honest, you might not even understand the topic.


I accept your resignation from the discussion. Good bye.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 06:11:00



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in au
Ancient Chaos Terminator





'Straya... Mate.

LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.


Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.

Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.

 
   
Made in ro
Dakka Veteran




 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.


Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.

Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.



Nope. Most people find takimg advantage of somebody else's IP infringement (I don't think anyone taking part in the discussion recasts himself for profit) acceptable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 06:27:00


 
   
Made in au
Ancient Chaos Terminator





'Straya... Mate.

LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.


Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.

Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.



Nope. Most people find takimg advantage of somebody else's IP infringement (I don't think anyone taking part in the discussion recasts himself for profit) acceptable.

Quote your source?

 
   
Made in ro
Dakka Veteran




 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
 Rippy wrote:
This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?


Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business od GW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.

As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.

This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.


Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.

Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.



Nope. Most people find takimg advantage of somebody else's IP infringement (I don't think anyone taking part in the discussion recasts himself for profit) acceptable.

Quote your source?



The posts themselves. Several people have claimed to buy recasts,none have claimed to sell recasts.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Lance845 wrote:
Why, if GW participates in crap business practices and price hikes their product to no end, should I care that they are being infringed upon?


So, what exactly are the horrible offenses that GW has committed to justify punishing them? The only thing I can think of is their lawyers threatening legal action against that random author for using "space marine" in her title, and that ended almost immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote:
As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?


If it's so "inconsequential" then why do you (and other people) keep trying to justify buying recasts? This thread is clearly about the morality of buying recasts, not just the factual question of "do recasts exist".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 07:17:13


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






 Peregrine wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
Why, if GW participates in crap business practices and price hikes their product to no end, should I care that they are being infringed upon?


So, what exactly are the horrible offenses that GW has committed to justify punishing them? The only thing I can think of is their lawyers threatening legal action against that random author for using "space marine" in her title, and that ended almost immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote:
As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?


If it's so "inconsequential" then why do you (and other people) keep trying to justify buying recasts? This thread is clearly about the morality of buying recasts, not just the factual question of "do recasts exist".


ONCE AGAIN! I have never sought out and contacted a recaster. I have never paid money to some dude in China to have them mail me a recast.

This thread, was, in fact about the legality of recaster websites. It is not about the morality of anything. And even if it was, it would be a pointless discussion because morality is subjective.

This




Very clearly states some of the crap business practices of GW has and the way it effects both web and brick and mortar stores front and our ability to purchase product. When GW makes it harder for us to buy ridiculously priced products, what naturally occurs is a turn to secondary markets.

I found the part he starts talking about in relation to direct sales at the 5:30 mark to be 100% horse gak. What it amounts to is if you want to play Sisters of Battle your fethed.

Then listen to the part at 10:30. The statement "Every single customer that Mini wargaming is selling to would buy elsewhere if we shut them down". Partially true. Recasters.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/08 07:39:41



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot







 Peregrine wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
So, is the land raider I scratch-built from a pizza box an IP violation that needs to be reported and destroyed? And what if I decide to sell that creation on e-bay?

If its not, I don't see any reason why a "recast" land raider by non-GW producer is any more wrong.


The difference is that one is a single custom-made model that uses GW's ideas but isn't a direct copy of the GW kit, while the other is an exact copy of the original sold in large numbers as a for-profit business. And technically selling your scratch-built LR is illegal and GW could in theory take legal action against you over it. It's just not worth their time to go after someone selling a $1 pile of scrap cardboard.


Yes, but GW would still have the burden of proof that that cardboard Land Raider is a violation of their copyright, which isn't easy to do if the model isn't a direct copy. After all, a cardboard Land Raider is obviously going to be a lot different from a professionally made plastic kit in many ways. So does GW own an exclusive right to use the words "Land" and "Raider" together? Do they own the exclusive right to the basic SHAPE of the Land Raider, and nothing else can be in that shape? Exactly WHAT GW owns, in terms of copyright, has huge legal ramifications, so courts will almost always rule that the copyright only applies to something really specific. This is why many miniature companies get away with selling models that clearly crib from 40k's design aesthetic and are meant to be usable in casual games of 40k. As long as they give their stuff a new name, and don't directly copy GW's designs, they're in the clear. GW can't own concepts as broad as "super soldiers in powered armor" or even, "super soldiers in powered armor fighting for a fanatical religious regime." If that were the case, they'd probably owe the estates of Frank Herbert and Robert Heinlein a whole ton of money.

Recasts, on the other hand, are literally just direct copies of GW molds, so the copyright infringement is self-evident. The end product is virtually identical, so it'll fit even the narrowest definition of a copyright violation.

So no, the two don't really compare, from a legal standpoint.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 07:27:33


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 Peregrine wrote:

Lance845 wrote:
As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?


If it's so "inconsequential" then why do you (and other people) keep trying to justify buying recasts? This thread is clearly about the morality of buying recasts, not just the factual question of "do recasts exist".


Well, technically the thread is about the *legality* of recasts and recasters, which is distinct from the *morality* of such

I mean, the former is easy to answer, because the recasters operate from places where the IP rights of GW are either not recognized or not enforced and the buyers don't care.

The latter is something different altogether.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 07:27:44


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 fallinq wrote:
So no, the two don't really compare, from a legal standpoint.


You do realize that "they aren't the same" is exactly what I said in the post you quoted, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote:
Very clearly states some of the crap business practices of GW has and the way it effects both web and brick and mortar stores front and our ability to purchase product. When GW makes it harder for us to buy ridiculously priced products, what naturally occurs is a turn to secondary markets.


Sorry, but I'm not impressed. I don't care one bit about some random online store's profit margins, and GW has no moral obligation to support independent stores*. And none of GW's business policies have made it difficult to buy GW products. Everything they sell, other than the limited-edition stuff, is available at any time from GW's own website. It's 2015 and shopping online is just part of life. Buying any GW product you want is no harder than buying a book from amazon, ordering a pizza online, etc. The only thing the customer loses is the discount that certain stores offered, and "GW won't sell me stuff at the price I want to pay" is not the same as "GW's business practices are morally wrong".


*That doesn't mean it's a smart business decision to stop supporting independent stores, of course. But "GW doesn't maximize their profits" is hardly a convincing argument that they're an evil corporation that deserves punishment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 07:40:31


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
 fallinq wrote:
So no, the two don't really compare, from a legal standpoint.


You do realize that "they aren't the same" is exactly what I said in the post you quoted, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance845 wrote:
Very clearly states some of the crap business practices of GW has and the way it effects both web and brick and mortar stores front and our ability to purchase product. When GW makes it harder for us to buy ridiculously priced products, what naturally occurs is a turn to secondary markets.


Sorry, but I'm not impressed. I don't care one bit about some random online store's profit margins, and GW has no moral obligation to support independent stores*. And none of GW's business policies have made it difficult to buy GW products. Everything they sell, other than the limited-edition stuff, is available at any time from GW's own website. It's 2015 and shopping online is just part of life. Buying any GW product you want is no harder than buying a book from amazon, ordering a pizza online, etc. The only thing the customer loses is the discount that certain stores offered, and "GW won't sell me stuff at the price I want to pay" is not the same as "GW's business practices are morally wrong".


*That doesn't mean it's a smart business decision to stop supporting independent stores, of course. But "GW doesn't maximize their profits" is hardly a convincing argument that they're an evil corporation that deserves punishment.


Clearly you didn't pay attention. 1) it wasn't just an online store. 2) online stores are shut down all together. You will notice that no website ANYWHERE allows you to browse GW product and purchase it through their web store front except GWs own website. You can have catalogs emailed to you and you can place phone orders. 3) GW was limiting the amount of product they could ORDER. Meaning they couldn't sell the product AT ALL. Which hurts? The consumer. You. Me. New players. Old players.

What consumers are missing out on is ordering product without paying international shipping and any other import fees their country might have. When the product is harder to find and more expensive to get, but THAT guy over there is selling it for less? Well now... that guy starts looking like a better person to give you money to.

Again, this is not about morals. I am not painting devil horns on GW because they want profit. If you charge a fair price for a fair product and you make that product easily available (mp3s cost 1 dollar and can be downloaded ANYWHERE easily) then people will not turn to pirating and recasters because the actual product is just easier and people are generally happy to pay the producer of the product. BUT when the companies put in place policies that make it HARDER and over charge... ::shrug::

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/04/08 07:59:29



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Lance845 wrote:
1) it wasn't an online store.


Yes it was. They had a token "offline" store to meet GW's requirements, but their main business was selling online.

2) online stores are shut down all together. You will notice that no website ANYWHERE allows you to browse GW product and purchase it through their web store front except GWs own website. You can have catalogs emailed to you and you can place phone orders.


Sorry, but a store in another state where I go to their website, email in an order and pay online, and get my purchases mailed to me is an online store. It's an online store with a really bad interface, but it's still an online store.

3) GW was limiting the amount of product they could ORDER. Meaning they couldn't sell the product AT ALL.


And what's your point? GW has no obligation to provide inventory for independent stores. You can (correctly IMO) argue that it's a bad business decision to reduce their presence in independent stores, but "GW isn't maximizing their profits" is hardly a compelling argument that they need to be punished for their crimes.

Which hurts? The consumer. You. Me. New players. Old players.


It hurts nobody at all because every single GW product that miniwargaming sold can be bought through GW's own website just as easily. The only thing you lose is the discount that miniwargaming used to offer, but "GW charges more than I want to pay" is not a very impressive example of evil business practices.

What consumers are missing out on is ordering product without paying international shipping and any other import fees their country might have.


I didn't know you had to pay import fees to buy something from GW's own website in your own country. In fact, I seem to remember it being the opposite in discussions of how to get cheaper GW stuff in countries where their own retail prices are higher than the US/UK: you only pay international shipping if you order from the US/UK website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you charge a fair price for a fair product


Would you like to explain exactly how you determine a "fair price" for plastic model kits? Do you have some kind of objective method, or is it nothing more than "I want cheaper toys therefore GW's prices aren't fair"?

and you make that product easily available


Everything GW sells is easily available from their website. It's 2015 and online shopping is part of life. You don't get to complain about how "difficult" it is to buy GW products when you can order anything you want with a few minutes of effort.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 08:00:46


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
1) it wasn't an online store.


Yes it was. They had a token "offline" store to meet GW's requirements, but their main business was selling online.

2) online stores are shut down all together. You will notice that no website ANYWHERE allows you to browse GW product and purchase it through their web store front except GWs own website. You can have catalogs emailed to you and you can place phone orders.


Sorry, but a store in another state where I go to their website, email in an order and pay online, and get my purchases mailed to me is an online store. It's an online store with a really bad interface, but it's still an online store.

3) GW was limiting the amount of product they could ORDER. Meaning they couldn't sell the product AT ALL.


And what's your point? GW has no obligation to provide inventory for independent stores. You can (correctly IMO) argue that it's a bad business decision to reduce their presence in independent stores, but "GW isn't maximizing their profits" is hardly a compelling argument that they need to be punished for their crimes.

Which hurts? The consumer. You. Me. New players. Old players.


It hurts nobody at all because every single GW product that miniwargaming sold can be bought through GW's own website just as easily. The only thing you lose is the discount that miniwargaming used to offer, but "GW charges more than I want to pay" is not a very impressive example of evil business practices.

What consumers are missing out on is ordering product without paying international shipping and any other import fees their country might have.


I didn't know you had to pay import fees to buy something from GW's own website in your own country. In fact, I seem to remember it being the opposite in discussions of how to get cheaper GW stuff in countries where their own retail prices are higher than the US/UK: you only pay international shipping if you order from the US/UK website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you charge a fair price for a fair product


Would you like to explain exactly how you determine a "fair price" for plastic model kits? Do you have some kind of objective method, or is it nothing more than "I want cheaper toys therefore GW's prices aren't fair"?

and you make that product easily available


Everything GW sells is easily available from their website. It's 2015 and online shopping is part of life. You don't get to complain about how "difficult" it is to buy GW products when you can order anything you want with a few minutes of effort.


I think you should go back and watch that video.

Then I think you should go back and read what I have been writing.

You seem to be confused about the points I have been making. If GW wants to take customers back from recasters it's in their own hands. Any practice they put in place that makes recasters more appealing to consumers drives customers away. Done.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Lance845 wrote:
If GW wants to take customers back from recasters it's in their own hands.


It really isn't. The point I've been making is that all of the excuses for why buying recasts is justified are just that: excuses. People aren't buying recasts because GW makes it difficult to buy legally, you can buy anything you want from GW with a few clicks and a credit card (or a debit card if you can't get a credit card). So "it's too hard to buy legally" is something people say when they've already decided to buy recasts for selfish price reasons and want a way to rationalize their bad behavior. Even if GW somehow made it even easier to buy their products the people buying recasts "because it's too hard to buy legally" would just come up with some other reason why they're "forced" to buy recasts.

The only way GW can get rid of the recasters is to commit financial suicide and cut their prices to the point where recasters can't make any money. As long as the recasters can make money they will always find plenty of customers with the entitled attitude that the only thing that matters is how cheaply they can get what they want. So, in the end, the entire argument for recasting is nothing more than "GW isn't a charity that exists for the sole purpose of giving me cheap models".

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
Lance845 wrote:
If GW wants to take customers back from recasters it's in their own hands.


It really isn't. The point I've been making is that all of the excuses for why buying recasts is justified are just that: excuses. People aren't buying recasts because GW makes it difficult to buy legally, you can buy anything you want from GW with a few clicks and a credit card (or a debit card if you can't get a credit card). So "it's too hard to buy legally" is something people say when they've already decided to buy recasts for selfish price reasons and want a way to rationalize their bad behavior. Even if GW somehow made it even easier to buy their products the people buying recasts "because it's too hard to buy legally" would just come up with some other reason why they're "forced" to buy recasts.

The only way GW can get rid of the recasters is to commit financial suicide and cut their prices to the point where recasters can't make any money. As long as the recasters can make money they will always find plenty of customers with the entitled attitude that the only thing that matters is how cheaply they can get what they want. So, in the end, the entire argument for recasting is nothing more than "GW isn't a charity that exists for the sole purpose of giving me cheap models".


Not really. For example, what coukd could GW do to dissuade me from buying recast: start pricing models according to their size and detail, not their tabletop performance and stop shifting game rules around just to push the sales of model X or Y, both of which aren't exactly moral in themselves.
   
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LordBlades wrote:
Not really. For example, what coukd could GW do to dissuade me from buying recast: start pricing models according to their size and detail, not their tabletop performance and stop shifting game rules around just to push the sales of model X or Y, both of which aren't exactly moral in themselves.


Sorry, but in what bizarre world is not using the pricing policies that you want an immoral act? GW sells plastic toys, not essential goods/services. If you don't like their prices you're free to buy something else instead. There are pricing decisions that maximize profit and pricing decisions that fail to do so, but no possible pricing decision by GW (or any other company selling luxury items like GW) could be reasonably labeled "immoral".

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
 
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