Shooting at Satirical magazine in France

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**Jihadin**

Let's keep it to the Radicalized and not involve religion as a whole being those that are radicalized who follow the Islamic faith use certain passages from the Koran/Quran same as those who are radicalized using passages from the Bible

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Okay. So, let us stop speaking about those guys motivations, then.

**Blackhoof**

Not many muslims actually care about depictions of the prophet, at least not inherently. Insulting pictures, yeah, but not the depiction itself. The only real controversies among the muslim communities have been when the images were insulting- benign images were only an issue when non-muslims thought it might be and kicked up a fuss.

**-Shrike-**

Jihadin wrote:
Let's keep it to the Radicalized and not involve religion as a whole being those that are radicalized who follow the Islamic faith use certain passages from the Koran/Quran same as those who are radicalized using passages from the Bible

I agree. Radicals will select particular (often extremely outdated) verses to try and justify their cause.

**Jihadin**

France better roll the military out to assist locking down the surrounding area to get these guys. These Shooters look capable of pulling off another attack later down the road

Edit
Pun was not intended

**-Shrike-**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay. So, let us stop speaking about those guys motivations, then.

Nobody said anything about that. You can talk about their personal motivations, just don't assume that the way these guys practice Islam should reflect on every other Muslim.

**cincydooley**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Which Christian organization killed a dozen or so folks over The Life of Brian? I missed that story somehow.

Not about Life of Brian, but we had some Christians put a movie theater on fire while people were inside because it showed The Last Temptation of Christ: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attentat_du_cin%C3%A9ma_Saint-Michel .
But I think you missed the point of my message. At some point you would certainly have been put to death for crimes of heresy long before you could even dream of publishing a caricature of Jesus. Some countries in the world still live with that kind of mentality, except with Islam, and a globalized world that allows them to hear about what happens in the rest of the world.

Well, sure. 600 years ago.

Don't pretend the two are the same. Despite areas where people still think Christianity is "backward" or "wrong," it's a very modern religion.

**Stevefamine**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
djones520 wrote:
Compatible with west in 3... 2... 1...

How is that relevant?

Anyhow, I would like to thank all the French newspapers that refused to show the perfectly acceptable caricatures of Muhammad for singling out Charlie Hebdo and making it a target. As long as it is only one newspaper doing this, they will be target for violence. If it becomes all newspaper, everywhere, the Islamists will understand that they cannot silence caricatures of Muhammad away, and will have to learn to deal with it.

They dont translate into the west....

Otherwise I wish the US coverage of this was better

**cincydooley**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay. So, let us stop speaking about those guys motivations, then.

Ignorant. Their motivations are a LARGE part of the story.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Blackhoof, explain to me why so many Tunisians were enraged when Nessma broadcasted Persepolis, then. Because they sure seemed upset at the depiction of Allah, while he certainly was not depicted in any kind of insulting way.
The movie, who was made by Iranian cartoonist Marjane Satrapi, would certainly not have shocked because of the depiction of Allah in Iran, because their brand of Shia Islam does not care. As surprising as it may be, because the movie was very critical of the revolution, it was still shown in the Islamic Republic of Iran. But even in Tunisia, which is far from the most hardline Muslim country, it caused a huge backlash.
Maybe you need to re-evaluate how representative the Muslims you know are, and realize that Muslims are way less homogeneous than you make them out to be.

**Dreadclaw69**

I hope that this is resolved speedily, and without further loss of innocent life

**PhantomViper**

-Shrike- wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay. So, let us stop speaking about those guys motivations, then.

Nobody said anything about that. You can talk about their personal motivations, just don't assume that the way these guys practice Islam should reflect on every other Muslim.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-reality-of-islam

crowds of thousands have gathered throughout the Muslim world—burning European embassies, issuing threats, and even taking hostages—in protest over 12 cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad that were first published in a Danish newspaper last September.

Anyway, I'll excuse myself from this thread and let the usual suspects carry on with their "religion of peace" nonsense.

My condolences to the victims and their families.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

-Shrike- wrote:
Radicals will select particular (often extremely outdated) verses to try and justify their cause.

That is a fallacy. Outdated? What does that even mean here?

-Shrike- wrote:
You can talk about their personal motivations, just don't assume that the way these guys practice Islam should reflect on every other Muslim.

And that is totally not what I said. I said that unless religion is constantly under criticism and mockery, terrible things will happens. Certainly not that all Muslims are the same or anything stupid like this.

cincydooley wrote:
Well, sure. 600 years ago.

And we need to find out how we went from that position to the current one. Cue my answer just above. Life of Brian made Christianism better. Metal music made Christianism better. All of the criticism made Christianism better. Or more “modern”, as you put it.

**CptJake**

This made me chuckle.

Spoiler:

**Jihadin**

Selective Qur'anic referencing comprises a core element of radical Islamist discourse endorsing militancy. These are often embedded in wider religious deliberations which also cite numerous Hadith and other religious sources to support a given argument. This article seeks to analyse and document the way in which specific verses of the Qur'an are used to legitimise justifications put forward for violence and targeting in a selected corpus of English- language extremist Islamist material. The article concludes that application of the teachings of the Qur'an is altered and tailored in major militant Islamist treatises to match their political narrative, thus violating strict Salafistic demands for literal application of the Qur'an's message.

Basically they use verses from the Quran/Koran to justify their action

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/104/html

The above is a summary and this is the conclusion.

Conclusions

From our brief analysis of thirty texts it emerges clearly that the Qur'an is taken as guidance very selectively to suit the jihadists' particular strategic and political agenda and to strengthen the accompanying narrative set forth by proponents of militant Islamism. Numerous verses and sections of the Qur'an that call for peaceful co-existence and mutual respect, counter-balancing many of the verses used to justify (terrorist) violence, are ignored and excluded from their one-sided narrative. This is typical of the tailored, politically motivated foundation upon which much of the militant jihadist discourse rests. Quoting from the Holy Book of Islam is shamelessly selective in order to serve their propaganda objectives.

The English-language output from militant Islamist figures relies heavily on the repeated use of a limited number of Qur'anic verses to justify political violence. Their arguments appear to rely on truncated rather than complete passages from the Qu'ran and are designed to fit their strategic narrative rather than being in conformity with the nuances of meanings of the Qur'an. The same 'doctored' use can be found in some of the abridged translations of medieval texts and more recent seminal works edited by jihadist publishing and distributing networks, which are also meant to serve contemporary jihadist propaganda.

When juxtaposed to the requirements set forth by Salafism for doctrinal purity and literal interpretation of the Qur'an (which includes the originally intended meaning) - values frequently invoked by the militant Islamists themselves - their peculiar selective utilization of the Qur'an appears paradoxical. Rather than being guided by the teachings of the Qur'an through the unadulterated application of its message, the narratives put forward by militant Islamists rely on a Qur'an a la carte, based on cherry-picked passages from specific verses to fit their pre-determined religio-political ideology and inform their messages to advance their group-specific ambitions.

Several authors in a previous issue of Perspectives on Terrorism [34] exploring the concept of counter-narratives and the potential for counter-terrorism efforts, have advocated measures to challenge extremist narratives given their role in recruitment and radicalisation. Such efforts rely, in part, on identifying irregularities and flaws in the extremist argument. Our investigation illustrates how the narrative of militant Islamism seeks to frame its legitimisation for violence through tapping into the authority of the Qur'an. This scrutiny of a sample of major English-language jihadist texts also indicates that propagandists of jihad violate the Salafists' own demands for doctrinal purity in terms of adherence to the Qu'ran. In other words - they tend to be dishonest and hypocritical.

**cincydooley**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

And we need to find out how we went from that position to the current one. Cue my answer just above. Life of Brian made Christianism better. Metal music made Christianism better. All of the criticism made Christianism better. Or more “modern”, as you put it.

Well, no.

But you're not going to listen to anyone tell you you're wrong, so I'm not going to try.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

And that is totally not what I said. I said that unless religion is constantly under criticism and mockery, terrible things will happens. Certainly not that all Muslims are the same or anything stupid like this.
.

A really ignorant, and almost insulting statement.

We get it: you don't like religion. Woohoo.

**djones520**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Okay. So, let us stop speaking about those guys motivations, then.

bs. Motivations of murderers is not off limits.

**MWHistorian**

I hope this doesn't frighten France into curtailing freedom of press or speech.

**Frazzled**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
BBC news live coverage reports that they found their car abandoned on the outskirts of Paris.

On the topic of cartoons: There are always crazy people, sometimes the world just has to be lucky to avoid them.
Some of my Christian friends (most would say they do not have a particular faith) do take some offence to Jesus cartoons, mostly because of how many surface around Christmas, just rubs them the wrong way.

Taking offense is of course permissible. Equating that to wacking a dozewn people is borderline asinine. I take offense at anchovies on pizza. I don't go blow away the CEO of Pizza Hut.

**Dreadclaw69**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
And we need to find out how we went from that position to the current one. Cue my answer just above. Life of Brian made Christianism better. Metal music made Christianism better. All of the criticism made Christianism better. Or more “modern”, as you put it.

I am intrigued by this statement. What tangible effect did the Life of Brian, and metal music, have on Christianity to make it "better"?

**Frazzled**

MWHistorian wrote:
I hope this doesn't frighten France into curtailing freedom of press or speech.

Agreed. I hope The Republic does the opposite.

**Disciple of Fate**

Frazzled wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
BBC news live coverage reports that they found their car abandoned on the outskirts of Paris.

On the topic of cartoons: There are always crazy people, sometimes the world just has to be lucky to avoid them.
Some of my Christian friends (most would say they do not have a particular faith) do take some offence to Jesus cartoons, mostly because of how many surface around Christmas, just rubs them the wrong way.

Taking offense is of course permissible. Equating that to wacking a dozewn people is borderline asinine. I take offense at anchovies on pizza. I don't go blow away the CEO of Pizza Hut.

Agreed, just mentioning that people might be offended, but only crazy people will actually kill because of it. I wonder how much the cartoons factored into the attack, as they are from several years ago, compared with for example the amount of attention the target could generate together with the amount of security, which is quite high in Paris in some places.

Edit: Seems there are three attackers
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-30710777

French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve is currently giving a statement. He says that the authorities are hunting three attackers in connection with the shooting.

**-Shrike-**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
-Shrike- wrote:
Radicals will select particular (often extremely outdated) verses to try and justify their cause.

That is a fallacy. Outdated? What does that even mean here?

Out of interest, what fallacy do you think I'm using here?

-Shrike- wrote:
You can talk about their personal motivations, just don't assume that the way these guys practice Islam should reflect on every other Muslim.

And that is totally not what I said. I said that unless religion is constantly under criticism and mockery, terrible things will happens. Certainly not that all Muslims are the same or anything stupid like this.

No. However, saying that "Islam is stupid, because of this" is what I was referring to, and it wasn't aimed at you.

cincydooley wrote:
Well, sure. 600 years ago.

And we need to find out how we went from that position to the current one. Cue my answer just above. Life of Brian made Christianism better. Metal music made Christianism better. All of the criticism made Christianism better. Or more “modern”, as you put it.

... What? How do you define "better"? Oh, I see, "modern". Right... and mockery and criticism is a necessity, is it?

Also, you know the correct term is Christianity, don't be stupid.

**PhantomViper**

-Shrike- wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

And we need to find out how we went from that position to the current one. Cue my answer just above. Life of Brian made Christianism better. Metal music made Christianism better. All of the criticism made Christianism better. Or more “modern”, as you put it.

... What? How do you define "better"? Oh, I see, "modern". Right... and mockery and criticism is a necessity, is it?

Also, you know the correct term is Christianity, don't be stupid.

Hybrid is French, so he was probably using an anglicization of the French term "Christianisme". Calling him stupid for doing so is a bit much.

**d-usa**

A few posts actually talking about a current events, with the rest of the thread already being a gak-slinging contest about "religion is bad/Islam is evil" before we even got to page 2.

Just lock this thread if it can't stay on topic, it's the same thread we locked last week and the week before.

**PhantomViper**

-Shrike- wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
-Shrike- wrote:
Radicals will select particular (often extremely outdated) verses to try and justify their cause.

That is a fallacy. Outdated? What does that even mean here?

Out of interest, what fallacy do you think I'm using here?

There are no outdated verses in the Quran.

**Orlanth**

Jihadin wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
BBC news live coverage reports that they found their car abandoned on the outskirts of Paris.

They hijacked another vehicle at a Metro station. These guys are TRAINED for they were not Praying and Spraying/Spraying and Praying. Good thing they did not have a RPG because there's a damn good chance they would remember to pull the pin to arm the round

Edit

No idea if your pointing out the first vehicle though

It's interesting watching this with commentary here from professional soldiers.

The press initially mentioned two gunmen, and amended it to three only in the last few minutes.* I can see how there are three (once those on Dakka told us how to look), and the presence of the unseen driver is also a given.

As there is another car stolen and ready can we assume the team size is actually five or six, minimum?

The police car windscreen looks a lot different from a regular spree shooting, even a layman can tell the shot grouping is fairly good.

* Does this mean two active triggermen and one in 'reserve'.

**SlaveToDorkness**

In this day and age, with all the hacktivists we have, can't they disseminate the caricatures throughout the internet where it is everywhere and cannot be curtailed or traced to a source?

**Frazzled**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
BBC news live coverage reports that they found their car abandoned on the outskirts of Paris.

On the topic of cartoons: There are always crazy people, sometimes the world just has to be lucky to avoid them.
Some of my Christian friends (most would say they do not have a particular faith) do take some offence to Jesus cartoons, mostly because of how many surface around Christmas, just rubs them the wrong way.

Taking offense is of course permissible. Equating that to wacking a dozewn people is borderline asinine. I take offense at anchovies on pizza. I don't go blow away the CEO of Pizza Hut.

Agreed, just mentioning that people might be offended, but only crazy people will actually kill because of it. I wonder how much the cartoons factored into the attack, as they are from several years ago, compared with for example the amount of attention the target could generate together with the amount of security, which is quite high in Paris in some places.

Gotcha ok cool.

**CptJake**

Not really reserve, more like overwatch. He'll be looking for LEO or others moving in/reacting to the shooters and engaging as needed to allow the shooters to maintain freedom of maneuver.

And they may very well switch roles as needed/as their direction of movement changes.