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For some reason, these wargears from the Grey Knights and Space Marines Codex cost the same 20 points on Terminators, but the Grey Knights one is clearly superior.

Assault cannon: 24" range S6 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending.

Psycannon: 24" range S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4 Rending.

No wonder why I play Grey Knights and never see Space Marines Assault Cannon as any recognizable threat. Is there any other wargear comparison that you think is unbalanced or not making any sense?

How about 25 points for a chaos Reaper Autocannon?

36" range, S7, AP4, Heavy 2, Twin Linked

Extra range doesn't help on a unit that wants to get into close combat, there's no rending to help out the AP4, and 2 shots isn't going to do much.

I don't see any problem between the Assault Cannon and the Psycannon though. Grey Knights have very little access to the heavy guns other marines love to lug around (Plasma, Melta, Lascannon) so the few guns they do have need to be able do a bit more work.

In general grey knights, despite being expensive overall, get their gear dirt cheap.

What's the base cost of their troops now, 100 or 110, can't remember. Correct me if I'm wrong. So for let's say 40 points more than a tactical squad, they get 5 storm bolters and 5 force swords. A storm bolter is 5 points, and a force sword is 15 points. And they're psykers. So for 110 points, they get a tac squad with 100 points of gear for 40 points more. And they're psykers.

No, I'm not complaining, despite all that stuff they still die just as fast as regular tac marines, I'm just saying that everything they get is cheaper than the standard marine equivalent.

Psycannon is the only big gun we got dude and I'm not gonna lie - it's a great weaon. I always give one too my warlord too - marine HQ can't do this with assualt cannons. A 5bs Psycannon is real nice.

Even the exact same wargear item doesn't cost the same between two different codexes. Besides, you might also have noticed GKs don't get lascannons, missile launcher, plasma weapons, or melta weapons on their troops. Psycannons are about the only anti armor weapon they get in any meaningful number.

bibotot wrote:
For some reason, these wargears from the Grey Knights and Space Marines Codex cost the same 20 points on Terminators, but the Grey Knights one is clearly superior.

Assault cannon: 24" range S6 AP4 Heavy 4 Rending.

Psycannon: 24" range S7 AP4 Salvo 2/4 Rending.

No wonder why I play Grey Knights and never see Space Marines Assault Cannon as any recognizable threat. Is there any other wargear comparison that you think is unbalanced or not making any sense?

If they're not seeing an assault cannon as a threat, it's to their disadvantage. The assault cannon is nearly as good, effectively identical against most infantry (S6 and S7 both wound on 2's against T3 and T4). It's only against heavier units that there's a difference, and the Assault Cannon is still *very* good.

The issue is that while the Space Marines have stuff like Predators, Vindicators, Cyclone Missile Launchers, flak tanks, etc, the Grey Knights have relatively limited heavy weapons options and availability, even when they do share similar platforms, often they are more expensive (e.g. Dreadnoughts). The Psycannon basically has to do *everything*, and it has to do it *all the time*.

The GK's in general are also very expensive overall, their numbers are limited, they require strong wargear to function or they're simply going to get buried, which they often do anyway.

 kingbobbito wrote:
In general grey knights, despite being expensive overall, get their gear dirt cheap.

What's the base cost of their troops now, 100 or 110, can't remember. Correct me if I'm wrong. So for let's say 40 points more than a tactical squad, they get 5 storm bolters and 5 force swords. A storm bolter is 5 points, and a force sword is 15 points. And they're psykers. So for 110 points, they get a tac squad with 100 points of gear for 40 points more. And they're psykers.

Keep in mind that taking costs straight from an armory and applying them to individual puds doesn't quite work there same way (and when armory options used to have options for puds, they would typically have two costs, one for Characters and one for puds, in the old CSM 3.5E codex for instance, Furious Charge was 15pts for an independent Character, but 3pts for a basic squad member). There's a decreasing marginal return on each individual upgrade weapon, having 10 Force Weapons in a unit often isn't really much more useful than having one or two.

In my experience, assault cannons are very "meh" because of the platforms they come on. I've even come to consider them a poor weapon just because of what they come on. If the marines could get a war walker squad with six assault cannons, I'd be impressed. But only the Eldar get that equivalent squad. Oh, with better range, too. Just in case they weren't good enough.

So, yes I'm extremely jealous of the psycannon because it is better than any marine heavy weapon imo, both in mechanics and deployment.

Martel732 wrote:
In my experience, assault cannons are very "meh" because of the platforms they come on. I've even come to consider them a poor weapon just because of what they come on. If the marines could get a war walker squad with six assault cannons, I'd be impressed. But only the Eldar get that equivalent squad. Oh, with better range, too. Just in case they weren't good enough.

The only similar Eldar weapons either have the same range, one less shot, and only pseudo-rending, or lack rending altogether and are only AP6 to get that 36" range and thus (while potent) and nowhere near as flexible and capable as Assault Cannons are.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
In my experience, assault cannons are very "meh" because of the platforms they come on. I've even come to consider them a poor weapon just because of what they come on. If the marines could get a war walker squad with six assault cannons, I'd be impressed. But only the Eldar get that equivalent squad. Oh, with better range, too. Just in case they weren't good enough.

The only similar Eldar weapons either have the same range, one less shot, and only pseudo-rending, or lack rending altogether and are only AP6 to get that 36" range and thus (while potent) and nowhere near as flexible and capable as Assault Cannons are.

Scatter lasers are far more potent than assault cannons because of their delivery systems and their extra 12" range. Rending in spurts of 4 and 8 shots is a joke and the AP 4 is also a negligible advantage. Range and delivery system. That's where the marines are costly getting hammered. Again, if the Imperium could mass up assault cannons, they'd be a thing. But as they are, I think they are bad. Let's put it this way: I've never had a problem with assault cannons and I play BA, a poor list even with the most recent codex.

Sure, I'd agree that the availability options are better and more widespread and allow Scatterlasers to be employed much more widely. But that's not reflective of the weapon itself. Assault cannons aren't bad weapons in and of themselves. They're sorta naff on Terminators, but make great Land Raider weapons (particularly in conjunction with PotMS).

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, I'd agree that the availability options are better and more widespread and allow Scatterlasers to be employed much more widely. But that's not reflective of the weapon itself. Assault cannons aren't bad weapons in and of themselves. They're sorta naff on Terminators, but make great Land Raider weapons (particularly in conjunction with PotMS).

As I said, I'm looking at them as a complete package. Sure, if I could get them on non-terrible platforms, I'd agree with you. But as it stands, I maintain that the assault cannon is a poor weapon in practice.

bibotot wrote:these wargears from the Grey Knights and Space Marines Codex cost the same 20 points on Terminators, but the Grey Knights one is clearly superior.

Yes, but to take a psycannon, you have to buy a grey knight terminator, not just a regular one. And, unless you're going unbound, you've got to take grey knights as allies. You've got to consider things more broadly, as just looking at nothing but statline and price is going to be too myopic to understand what's going on.

By your logic, bolters are bad because you have to pay 250 points for 6 of them on a land raider crusader, and 42 points apiece is way too expensive for them.

I'd also note that this applies to CSM terminator autocannons as well. 50 points is a bargain for making it so that your 350 point terminator squad isn't stuck being useless against targets it can't reach.

 Ailaros wrote:


I'd also note that this applies to CSM terminator autocannons as well. 50 points is a bargain for making it so that your 350 point terminator squad isn't stuck being useless against targets it can't reach.

If that's happened, something has gone terribly wrong, and that's likely the least of your problems.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Assault cannons make great Land Raider weapons

Land Raiders can't get assault cannons, they can get twin-linked assault cannons, which are such a completely different weapon, you'd pay points to reduce their bs, if you could.

(particularly in conjunction with PotMS).

There it is.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


I'd also note that this applies to CSM terminator autocannons as well. 50 points is a bargain for making it so that your 350 point terminator squad isn't stuck being useless against targets it can't reach.

If that's happened, something has gone terribly wrong, and that's likely the least of your problems.

You'd be surprised. For some reason people keep on running away from my 10 MoK terminator squad, making close combat much more difficult than if they just stayed put and took their medicine.

Honestly, the most useful thing I've found them for is against mech armies. Yeah, I got a bunch of combi-meltas, but deepstriking sometimes up to 500 points (if I've got a lord in there) into melta range when you're 11 40mm models... well... you don't always want to guarantee you're going to be in melta range with a close drop. If that mech army is skimmers, then there's no way you're going to catch them with power fists right away, and if they're running a flier-heavy list, you're not getting into close combat hardly at all.

Yes, combi-weapons and power weapons and MoK are doing a majority of damage, but when your opponent is doing literally everything in their power to prevent that, well, it's nice to have a backup, even if it IS just a pair of autocannons.

 Ailaros wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


I'd also note that this applies to CSM terminator autocannons as well. 50 points is a bargain for making it so that your 350 point terminator squad isn't stuck being useless against targets it can't reach.

If that's happened, something has gone terribly wrong, and that's likely the least of your problems.

You'd be surprised. For some reason people keep on running away from my 10 MoK terminator squad, making close combat much more difficult than if they just stayed put and took their medicine.

Honestly, the most useful thing I've found them for is against mech armies. Yeah, I got a bunch of combi-meltas, but deepstriking sometimes up to 500 points (if I've got a lord in there) into melta range when you're 11 40mm models... well... you don't always want to guarantee you're going to be in melta range with a close drop. If that mech army is skimmers, then there's no way you're going to catch them with power fists right away, and if they're running a flier-heavy list, you're not getting into close combat hardly at all.

Yes, combi-weapons and power weapons and MoK are doing a majority of damage, but when your opponent is doing literally everything in their power to prevent that, well, it's nice to have a backup, even if it IS just a pair of autocannons.

It's so sad

If it wasn't for psycannons - grey-knights would be unplayable.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If it wasn't for psycannons - grey-knights would be unplayable.

That's very well true. I just wish GW had given them a couple of different options instead of one gun to rule them all.

We have Psilencers and Incinerators, too. It's just that Psycannons are more flexible to use that the other two options, which only accel in specific roles.

SJ

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, I'd agree that the availability options are better and more widespread and allow Scatterlasers to be employed much more widely. But that's not reflective of the weapon itself. Assault cannons aren't bad weapons in and of themselves. They're sorta naff on Terminators, but make great Land Raider weapons (particularly in conjunction with PotMS).

As I said, I'm looking at them as a complete package. Sure, if I could get them on non-terrible platforms, I'd agree with you. But as it stands, I maintain that the assault cannon is a poor weapon in practice.

Perhaps that's the BA-tinted glasses talking then. I'd say that the assault cannon is an excellent weapon on the Storm Talon, it also has a good synergy with the sky hammer missiles, giving it a broad range of targets to threaten for a low cost. I'll also mention the Storm Raven, but that hardly qualifies as a cheap platform, I still wouldn't call it an ineffective platform though.

 Zewrath wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, I'd agree that the availability options are better and more widespread and allow Scatterlasers to be employed much more widely. But that's not reflective of the weapon itself. Assault cannons aren't bad weapons in and of themselves. They're sorta naff on Terminators, but make great Land Raider weapons (particularly in conjunction with PotMS).

As I said, I'm looking at them as a complete package. Sure, if I could get them on non-terrible platforms, I'd agree with you. But as it stands, I maintain that the assault cannon is a poor weapon in practice.

Perhaps that's the BA-tinted glasses talking then. I'd say that the assault cannon is an excellent weapon on the Storm Talon, it also has a good synergy with the sky hammer missiles, giving it a broad range of targets to threaten for a low cost. I'll also mention the Storm Raven, but that hardly qualifies as a cheap platform, I still wouldn't call it an ineffective platform though.

Storm Raven is perfectly costed for what you get IMO. I almost always give a laz cannon though - it just solidifies it's roll for killing heavy armor with all that low AP.

I find the Stormraven rather overcosted myself. Their durability/pt is actually rather poor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, I'd agree that the availability options are better and more widespread and allow Scatterlasers to be employed much more widely. But that's not reflective of the weapon itself. Assault cannons aren't bad weapons in and of themselves. They're sorta naff on Terminators, but make great Land Raider weapons (particularly in conjunction with PotMS).

As I said, I'm looking at them as a complete package. Sure, if I could get them on non-terrible platforms, I'd agree with you. But as it stands, I maintain that the assault cannon is a poor weapon in practice.

Perhaps that's the BA-tinted glasses talking then. I'd say that the assault cannon is an excellent weapon on the Storm Talon, it also has a good synergy with the sky hammer missiles, giving it a broad range of targets to threaten for a low cost. I'll also mention the Storm Raven, but that hardly qualifies as a cheap platform, I still wouldn't call it an ineffective platform though.

Yeah, it's good on the Stormtalon as well. But it sucks on so many other platforms.

Martel732 wrote:
I find the Stormraven rather overcosted myself. Their durability/pt is actually rather poor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, I'd agree that the availability options are better and more widespread and allow Scatterlasers to be employed much more widely. But that's not reflective of the weapon itself. Assault cannons aren't bad weapons in and of themselves. They're sorta naff on Terminators, but make great Land Raider weapons (particularly in conjunction with PotMS).

As I said, I'm looking at them as a complete package. Sure, if I could get them on non-terrible platforms, I'd agree with you. But as it stands, I maintain that the assault cannon is a poor weapon in practice.

Perhaps that's the BA-tinted glasses talking then. I'd say that the assault cannon is an excellent weapon on the Storm Talon, it also has a good synergy with the sky hammer missiles, giving it a broad range of targets to threaten for a low cost. I'll also mention the Storm Raven, but that hardly qualifies as a cheap platform, I still wouldn't call it an ineffective platform though.

Yeah, it's good on the Stormtalon as well. But it sucks on so many other platforms.

Well for the same price you can get a riptide so yeah...I get your drift.

Martel732 wrote:
I find the Stormraven rather overcosted myself. Their durability/pt is actually rather poor.

Disagree.

200 points for an AV12 flyer that is immune to Melta, has a TL-MM, a TL-lascannon or TL-Assault cannon, and 4 Str8 AP2 missiles is a good deal.

They're the most durable flyer out there that isn't a Super Heavy.

It's not immune to melta. Melta still takes off a HP 50% of the time. Even S7 is reasonable against the Raven, whereas S7 is not viable against the helldrake.

Yes, it is in fact immune to melta. The rule which gives an additional D6 on the damage chart. That's what that means.

The Heldrake and Stormraven have the same armor. Str7 has the same probability of damaging it. The Heldrake just has a permanent 5+ invuln. That doesn't make Str7 not a viable solution.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, it is in fact immune to melta. The rule which gives an additional D6 on the damage chart. That's what that means.

The Heldrake and Stormraven have the same armor. Str7 has the same probability of damaging it. The Heldrake just has a permanent 5+ invuln. That doesn't make Str7 any less viable.

It also has IWND. I guess the helldrake is just super nasty now that the vehicle tables have been nerfed. I always went for the explode result on them, because trying to HP them out was a nightmare. But now getting explodes isn't viable either, really.

Raven is immune to the melta rule, but melta is still D6+8 against them. More than enough to be a problem.

Yes, a melta gun can still bring a raven down. Its just not nearly as dangerous as it usually would be. Very little melta has skyfire either, aside from another Raven. So usually its just dealing with Str7.

And yes, the Heldrake is very durable. But str7 can still take it down. It gets IWND and 5+ invuln against other shots too.

Well, prescienced MM used to be a thing, but with Warp Charge 2 cost, that's not as common. I've just never been impressed with Stormravens in general, on both sides of thing.

id trade being able to task psycannons for having melta/lascannons on troops/devastators any day of the week.