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 tastytaste wrote:
Oy vey!

via Steve the Warboss 1-8-2014

Regarding Codex Chaos Space Marines
-No Cult Marines in the Codex
-Few Rule changes
-Dataslates for Cult Marines, Terminators, Chosen ect. in White Dwarf
-One Chaos God per Issue (each with their own dataslates for Berzerker Termis, Plague Termis ect.)

Az och en vey!

But considering that that the chaos codex isn't that old and does not require much fixing, I find this very hard to believe. Why would they release a new chaos dex? What would be the cool new stuff? Why is this stamped as a rumor from August 2014? Even GW's dickishnes aside, a CSM dex stripped of all cult troops makes for a really sad sight. Admittedly not knowing the sources reputation I call total BS on this one.

 Ozymandias wrote:
DA HAD A CODEX FIRST!

Shared with an equally undeserving army, the Blood Angels, and when the Chaos Codex did come out it was bigger and better your half-dex! And very yellow!

 Ozymandias wrote:
Ok, enough OT. This doesn't surprise me, why include Cult troops when you can get people to buy a dataslate for $35 (or whatever they're going for these days) for 5 pages of God-specific Cult rules. I would be surprised if there aren't any marks at all in the Chaos Dex. Not Khorne Berzerkers, but a mark of Khorne for the Khorne worshiping CSM that aren't World Eaters.

That part that bothers me so much, aside from all the usual nonsense GW pulls with Chaos, is that the fine folks at Forge World have given them the absolute perfect template for how to do Legions/Cults. Putting aside whatever balance issues the lists may have, the Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes/Legion specific army lists are fantastic.

Base List Special Rules
Base List

Legion #1 Modifier to Base List Special Rule
Legion #1 Additional Special Rule
Legion #1 Unique Units

Legion #2 Modifier to Base List Special Rule
Legion #2 Additional Special Rule
Legion #2 Unique Units

And so on. It is so elegant and so intuitive that it just shocks me that GW proper haven't adopted it.

The Chaos codex definitely does need some fixing. It's not that old but when Necrons get done it'll be the oldest one, and along with DA they do need a bit of fixing. They're both a bit behind the curve now, probably because they were the first in a new edition.

However I don't trust GW at all to do it right, especially lately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ozymandias wrote:
DA HAD A CODEX FIRST!

Shared with an equally undeserving army, the Blood Angels, and when the Chaos Codex did come out it was bigger and better your half-dex! And very yellow!

 Ozymandias wrote:
Ok, enough OT. This doesn't surprise me, why include Cult troops when you can get people to buy a dataslate for $35 (or whatever they're going for these days) for 5 pages of God-specific Cult rules. I would be surprised if there aren't any marks at all in the Chaos Dex. Not Khorne Berzerkers, but a mark of Khorne for the Khorne worshiping CSM that aren't World Eaters.

That part that bothers me so much, aside from all the usual nonsense GW pulls with Chaos, is that the fine folks at Forge World have given them the absolute perfect template for how to do Legions/Cults. Putting aside whatever balance issues the lists may have, the Horus Heresy Legiones Astartes/Legion specific army lists are fantastic.

Base List Special Rules
Base List

Legion #1 Modifier to Base List Special Rule
Legion #1 Additional Special Rule
Legion #1 Unique Units

Legion #2 Modifier to Base List Special Rule
Legion #2 Additional Special Rule
Legion #2 Unique Units

And so on. It is so elegant and so intuitive that it just shocks me that GW proper haven't adopted it.

Yep the FW 30k system is a thing of beauty in my eyes. There aren't even many balance issues in the lists, and the system for making the legions distinct and unique is so simple and works so well.

Just come to 30k!

Yo dawg, i heard you liked dinobots so i put some dinobots on your dinobots.*



*dinobots removed from codex and now day1 dlc

Yes it is a rumor but I guess this may very well be the new norm.

To be honest do you guys think they will release new kits for the cult troops? i.e Nurgle Dataslate gets simultaneous new plague marine release

I just want some Slaanesh love, ffs Lucius sucks, they should make Eidolon a special character all Frankenstein and such.

Well, I don't like the current state of CSM much. The codex feels pretty bland.

You can not make simple traitors as near-everything is somehow demonified.
You can not make propper cult armies as you have basically only one fluffy unit and have to fill up the rest with whatever springs to mind.
Black Legion supplement just adds more of the same blandnes.

The only two things that somehow seem in line with the design of the written stuff would be a demonic machines heavy list for iron warriors and the Crimson slaughter sup that does capture this crazed flair of the chapter pretty well. Other than that though...

However, if they gut the codex even further, there's not much point to get one in the first place. Scavenge the rules entries to whatever units you want to use and tape it together.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I like the dinobots!

I like the one with the massive multi-barrelled cannons, but they're still kinda silly. The Komodo dragon head does nothing for me. I prefer my Daemon Engines to be a little more engine and a little less Daemon, like a living mechanical thing rather than a mechanical living thing, if you catch my meaning.

Perhaps I should expand.

I like the dinobots. I'm slightly more ambivalent about their place in the CSM model range.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yep the FW 30k system is a thing of beauty in my eyes. There aren't even many balance issues in the lists, and the system for making the legions distinct and unique is so simple and works so well.

Just come to 30k!

I haven't played 40k in over a year. Collecting/converting a 30k army might be the only way I'd come back at this point.

 Ozymandias wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Yep the FW 30k system is a thing of beauty in my eyes. There aren't even many balance issues in the lists, and the system for making the legions distinct and unique is so simple and works so well.

Just come to 30k!

I haven't played 40k in over a year. Collecting/converting a 30k army might be the only way I'd come back at this point.

I love 30k. FW have handled it so well in my opinion. The books are amazing, the models are amazing. Yes you're paying more but I think the quality is worth it, and far surpasses anything in 40k.

I get some people are like 'ugh more space marines' but that's just a given, given the setting, and the legions actually feel varied and different even though they use the same list, and there's Mechanicum (ha we got it before 40k ) Solar Auxilia and Knights lists too, there's a lot more variety than there looks on the surface.

And they've handled the Chaos legions much better than 40k, and they aren't even really chaos yet!

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Seems a bit early for another Chaos Codex, no?

No? The chaos codex is 6th edition and the game is in 7th edition?

Chaos Marines were the first book of 6th, and thus the oldest hardback. Once Crons get updated, barring Sisters and any lesser codices, there are no more softback books to update.

Hmmm. Force people to buy generic Chaos Space Marine models instead of their already painted Cult troops that they have been using for years?


Now I can actually believe it. Expect a new Chaos tacticals box with spikier spikes, and plastic cultists as a release.

Cult troops will be released with new plastic models a few months later with appropriate Supplements/WD to field them. One supplement/WD each week for the 4 Gods for a month long Second Wave CSM release.

NEXT UP. Disecting Dark Angels to be 3 mini-dexes for their Wings.

 Malika2 wrote:
I'm not buying this rumour...

What! you now also have to pay for GW rumors?! Unbelievable!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And, what, you'll think they'll let you add 'em back in with Marks?

This is 40K Chaos. They've been getting blander and blander with fewer options every damned edition since they killed the glorious 3.5 book. And to add insult to injury the one time they released a Legion-based supplement, it was for the most vanilla Chaos Legion of all!

The only thing they're going to add is pointless DLC.

That 3.5 codex was the most broken and unfair POS that Games Workshop published in the entire 3rd edition era (and it took A LOT to knock the Space Wolf book out of that spot!). There was a reason that it was replaced by another codex within IIRC 2-3 years and it was because it was grossly unbalanced and about as fun to play against as sticking fingers in a light socket. That book and the ccombos it allowed single handedly destroyed my local scene when two chaos players decided to place no limits on themselves when using it. I know you play chaos but lets call a spade a spade and not put that broken mess of easily abusable rules on such a revered pedestal.

That of course doesn't mean that I support turning cult troops into paid DLC for the codex. If anything, the chaos codex should be a super sized one like the vanilla marines with both legion rules and cult troops but that won't ever happen again. Still, paid DLC cult troops (if done correctly and not just PA ones but rather terminators and where applicable jump troops) is still better than no cult troops at all. That is, unfortunately, the only realistic choice the modern GW will give players.

I don't think H.B.M.C. was praising it because of its OPness, more so because it was the last dex that actually accurately represent CSMs in all their glory. The last few ones have been jokes option-wise compared to that one. The current one was better, but still terrible. We want to be able to play accurate representation of the warbands made up of the remnants of the Traitor Legions, not just Black-painted Evil Ultramarines with less flavour, Red-painted Evil Ultramarines that suck or Green-painted Evil Ultramarines that are pretty good but still just Evil Marines with +1T.

If the cult troops get removed from the dex and made day 1 DLC, that's more options (and the among the only flavourful ones) removed and that's insulting. Green-painted Evil Ultramarines will definitely be the only thing taken as the only thing saving Pink-painted Evil Ultramarines were their Cult troops...

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
I'm not buying this rumour...

What! you now also have to pay for GW rumors?! Unbelievable!

I think that's the thread right there.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
To which I say:

Cult Marines aren't an extra fething add-on.

First they took our Legions, then they took our Daemons, and now they're taking our Cult Marines, so my point about them all going to hell stands. I am tired, so very tired, of seeing one of my fav armies get picked apart with each new edition. Why even have fething Chaos Marines at all if they're just going to strip away at them until they really are just Evil Ultramarines.

Oh come on! It is perfectly suited for Chaos. See, it is change. Tzeentch! It is decay. Nurgle! It makes you angry. Khorne! And also, something about Slaanesh, but I am not telling .
So it is a great thing, totally fluffy, and I really hope it continues to happens, until CSM are rolled in like the Black Templars!


(It was a joke, if you are fast enough you can catch it when it comes above your head )

Hmm, I think no cult marines sounds kind of crazy,
but this may mean a legion focus, similar to chapter tactics in the marine book, which would be pretty cool

I don't believe this rumor for a second. No way in hell are we getting cult terminators.

More likely I'd expect to see a new codex with across-the-board nerfs and the complete removal of cult units. The hybrid kits get discontinued and the plastic berserkers go Direct Only. Then they release a dataslate with rules for berserkers, unique warlord traits and relics, and a detachment with extra elite slots. Also a formation consisting of 8 berserkers + Khorne lord. If a unit wins a combat and is within 6" of all the other units then the whole formation gets Fear (!) and the Lord gets a free roll on the Boon table (re-roll Dark Apothosis results).

Yeah, that sounds more like it.

If this latest batch of rumors are true, then it seems WHFB is contracting itself in compactly while 40k is spreading itself further and further out. I mean, how many dataslates do we have now?

Christ! This thread was enough to bring Doobie out of hiding. That's how big a deal it is.

 warboss wrote:
That 3.5 codex was the most broken and unfair POS that Games Workshop published in the entire 3rd edition era (and it took A LOT to knock the Space Wolf book out of that spot!).

Utterly irrelevant. Matters of balance are not the same as matters of structure and options. They relate to and inform one another, but a failure in one does not indicate or constitute a failure in the others.

You could balance a Codex like the 3.5 without sacrificing its soul. You can keep the Legions and the options for multiple play-styles without Jervisifying the whole damned thing like they did when the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex came out.

The fact that the Iron Warriors were broken and that Siren was a stupid power doesn't mean that the core concepts of that book (Cult Troops are made via the Mark system, the Legions put different restrictions on unit types and benefits for unit size, etc.) were flawed or could not be balanced.

It was not - NOT - a "POS", as you would call it.

I'm taking more salt with this than I did with the Fantasy 9th Edition rumours.

The Cult troops already HAVE models and they're pretty popular at that. Aged? Yes, but they actually exist. I just don't see it happening. The only way I could see it happening is if they rapidly put out say... "Codex: World Eaters" supplements.

That or they've finally lost all subtly when it comes to "Please, please, please, just play Loyalist Codex #135151 like the other kids! Look, more toys for them! Don't you wanna join in the fun too, Lil Jimmy boy?!"

Come 8th CSMs will be a bloody Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines.

I don't see GW taking out units in a codex that already have models, the Cult Marines are too ingrained into the lore and without them Chaos is basically Cultists and regular marines with Obliterators and the demon engines.

Having said that I do think it's possible that they want to go in a new direction and the dataslates allow them to do that without cluttering the main dex. So the main Dex is your generic Chaos with the ability to represent a warband or non god aligned Chaos renegade chapter.

Then they can allow you your dataslates and formations in the WD. So a hypothetical Formations might be Khorne Marauding Horde.

2 HQ of either a Khorne SM or Demon
Troops Berzerkers,KhorneMarked SM,BloodLetters
Elites etc etc

Special Rule- All units have Adamantium Will and reroll charge ranges.

Honestly I'd pay a WD for that.

 Arbitrator wrote:
The Cult troops already HAVE models and they're pretty popular at that.

The Berzerker kit came out at the start of 3rd Ed. Everything is is a plastic/FineCost hybrid.

GW is in the process of cutting things, not adding, especially when no plastic alternative exists.

I'm sorry guys, this is all my fault. My friends and I were just talking the other day about the blandification of 7th Edition and how GW is loving removing stuff from codices only to put them back in with dataslates and such, and I said something about how I would expect to see the new Chaos codex to lose all of the cult troops to have them sold back to us in supplements for each Chaos god. GW must have been spying on us from the next table and got the idea from me.

Sorry.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I would expect to see the new Chaos codex to lose all of the cult troops to have them sold back to us in supplements for each Chaos god.

This. Totally follows GW's current strategy of banal core codexes which are only competitively useful in combination with pricey supplements. Moar cash for the GW cash god!

Like all things it depends on the execution. If the main book is bland but the WD lists allow us to combine Demons and CSM into one Force Org chart with a flavorful special rule, gives us God Specific Relics and Warlord Traits, and Cult Terminators and Dreadnoughts, I for one won't complain.

demontalons wrote:
Like all things it depends on the execution.

Well then we're screwed. GW is a house of a million fantastic ideas and a million botched executions.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ! This thread was enough to bring Doobie out of hiding. That's how big a deal it is.

 warboss wrote:
That 3.5 codex was the most broken and unfair POS that Games Workshop published in the entire 3rd edition era (and it took A LOT to knock the Space Wolf book out of that spot!).

Utterly irrelevant. Matters of balance are not the same as matters of structure and options. They relate to and inform one another, but a failure in one does not indicate or constitute a failure in the others.

I'm really surprised that I have to explain this to a long time playtester and RPG rules writing freelancer but matters of balance are intrinsically linked to matters of structure and options. It was the matter of structure in allowing a completely customizable set of daemon prince rules interacting with the undercosted/overpowered individual options that made the resulting combinations unbalanced. Throw in some unbalanced legion rules (a minority admittedly) and other unbalanced and undercosted units (like Oblits at natural t5 at their original points) and you have an unholy mess of a codex that had individual models that could run through 2 whole units a game turn without even considering what the rest of the army was doing. If a rules writer doesn't bother considering how that structure and those option interact, it completely screws balance. The same is true of RPGs where things like individual feats in D&D weren't at first glance grossly OP but rather simply powerful but when used in combo with other things in an unregulated lack of structure made them ridiculous.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

You could balance a Codex like the 3.5 without sacrificing its soul. You can keep the Legions and the options for multiple play-styles without Jervisifying the whole damned thing like they did when the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex came out.

The fact that the Iron Warriors were broken and that Siren was a stupid power doesn't mean that the core concepts of that book (Cult Troops are made via the Mark system, the Legions put different restrictions on unit types and benefits for unit size, etc.) were flawed or could not be balanced.

It was not - NOT - a "POS", as you would call it.

I don't disagree with any of the above except for the last sentance. The complete lack of balance in the codex nudges it into the thumbs down IMO category in the greater scheme of the game and community. You're choosing to put on rose colored blinders when you think back about that book. That book single handedly broke up my local player group when two players decided to use it to their full potential. My point was that folks like yourself hold that book in such high regard without ever mentioning the massive problems that it had. Someone looking at it right now as a new player may not see much there but in the framework of the different rules of 3rd edition where eternal warrior was incredibly scarce and there was no overwatch or follow up moves when assaulted and special characters were permission only, having instakill models with potentially double digit attacks going at initiatives higher than almost anything else in the game assaulting corners of units and wiping out whole squads with NO attacks back from the assaulted unit and then doing the same thing in the second half of the same turn because you could consolidate and sweep into yet another unit... was bad.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ! This thread was enough to bring Doobie out of hiding. That's how big a deal it is.

Know this - whenever it's time for Chaos Space Marines to get royally screwed... I will be there.

Ultimately an army whose only plastic models are base decorations for Space Wolves riding Space Wolves has a lot going for it.

 warboss wrote:
I'm really surprised that I have to explain this to a long time playtester and RPG rules writing freelancer but matters of balance are intrinsically linked to matters of structure and options.

You don't.

 warboss wrote:
It was the matter of structure in allowing a completely customizable set of daemon prince rules interacting with the undercosted/overpowered individual options that made the resulting combinations unbalanced. Throw in some unbalanced legion rules (a minority admittedly) and other unbalanced and undercosted units (like Oblits at natural t5 at their original points) and you have an unholy mess of a codex that had individual models that could run through 2 whole units a game turn without even considering what the rest of the army was doing. If a rules writer doesn't bother considering how that structure and those option interact, it completely screws balance. The same is true of RPGs where things like individual feats in D&D weren't at first glance grossly OP but rather simply powerful but when used in combo with other things in an unregulated lack of structure made them ridiculous.

1. There was nothing wrong with Oblits at T5. That's what they were meant to be, and they were fine. You got 1 unit of them and they couldn't get Marks. That was the balancing factor.
2. I'm never going to deny that elements of that book were too powerful or in some cases too weak (1KSons anyone?), but that doesn't stop the fact that the structure/options were excellent. They weren't balanced because like everything GW is good on concept and bad on execution. You could make the same argument for many of the books of that era, like the Guard book. Doctrines were a wonderful idea badly implemented. Didn't bring down the whole book though. Same applies here.

 warboss wrote:
I don't disagree with any of the above except for the last sentance. The complete lack of balance in the codex nudges it into the thumbs down IMO category in the greater scheme of the game and community. You're choosing to put on rose colored blinders when you think back about that book. That book single handedly broke up my local player group when two players decided to use it to their full potential. My point was that folks like yourself hold that book in such high regard without ever mentioning the massive problems that it had. Someone looking at it right now as a new player may not see much there but in the framework of the different rules of 3rd edition where eternal warrior was incredibly scarce and there was no overwatch or follow up moves when assaulted and special characters were permission only, having instakill models with potentially double digit attacks going at initiatives higher than almost anything else in the game assaulting corners of units and wiping out whole squads with NO attacks back from the assaulted unit and then doing the same thing in the second half of the same turn because you could consolidate and sweep into yet another unit... was bad.

I'm not looking back at it with rose-coloured blinders. There's no need to. The book was magnificent. A celebration of Chaotic diversity the likes of which the game had never seen before or since. You could play any Legion with full options, all the Daemons were there, a full host of Daemonic Gifts, Daemon Weapons and general Wargear, vehicle mutations, new units, old units, a competent and streamlined Mark system. It was missing Cultists/Lost & The Damned stuff, but beyond that it had everything. Not being balanced in no way changes any of that. Not being balanced just means that the book never lived up to its full potential because many units were too good/obvious takes, and many were utter trash.

And I do mention the problems with it. I mentioned them in the post you replied to. I'm sorry it broke you group up, but that's really your problem (and their's) not the book's.

It wasn't balanced