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Moving this to another thread. The rumors about the next CSM Codex are that Cult Troops are getting pulled and dumped into Supplements. Taking this with a huge grain of salt, but it got me thinking about what's actually out there right now. For a company that likes to talk about it's customer service, they are really missing expectations on this line.

To get a good set of rules for CSMs these days, you have to buy some combination of the following (prices estimated because I am too lazy to look this up):

- Codex CSM: $50
- Supplement: Black Legion: $30 (to get chosen as troops without Abaddon and those artefacts)
- Supplement: Crimson Slaughter: $30 (to get divination and working possessed)
- Dataslate: Be'Lakor: $10 (to get Be'Lakor)
- Dataslate: Cypher: $10 (to get Cypher and Fallen)
- Dataslate: Helbrutes: $10 (to get Murderpacks and whatnot)
- Imperial Armor 13: $85 (to get Fire Raptors, Sicarans and Rapiers)
- Codex: Daemons: $50 (to have a list that is semi-competitive)

That's close to $300 just for the rules. Beyond the fact it costs so much, I don't think there's a lot of awareness of what's actually out there outside forums like Dakka (even with GW store managers.)

But imagine if the CSM ruleset products looked more like this:

- Codex: CSM: $50 (including Be'Lakor, Cypher, all HQs, and all existing units)
- Codex: Your Favorite Legion: $50 (with special rules, FOC changes, a unique unit or two and artefacts for each)
- Supplement: Some Unit: $10 (Including formations w/ special rules)
- Codex: CD: $50 (for actual daemons)

Sounds a lot cleaner, huh?

Not saying this would happen, the point is to illustrate that the CSM product line is way, way too fragmented. I had a hard time just remembering everything that's out there now, and know that people who don't frequent forums have no clue about half of the things on this list.

If GW really just wants to take my money, they could do a lot better job of it by 1) coming out with a clear, generally available set of rulebooks and 2) stopping with the &$%*#$% supplements.

I get the point that the company wants to create artificial scarcity as a means of generating sales, but this is not video games and the DLC is a poor substitute for their core product. If they put out a new Codex with slightly tweaked rules for each Legion every four months, I would buy every one of them and they would be way ahead of the game financially. They could still do supplements around specific formations to boot.

But it's GW. *sigh*

$160 is still far more than I want to pay just for rules.

$300 is a joke.

I really am curious to see what happens when a Codex with a Supplement gets an update and how they handle that.
It's looking like Chaos Space Marines will be the first one up and how they choose to handle the supplements will be interesting.
I expect that they will all need to be purchased again like any other codex but as they will also be some of the first digital editions to be updated it will also be interesting to see if Black Library keeps to old versions available for download while selling the new versions etc. I expect pigs will fly before the digital editions get any kind of free update.

I can't think of anyone who will play the main codex + both supplements at the same time. Also, IA contains rules for FW units and I'm glad my book is not cluttered with units I will never even consider buying.

Codex: Chaos Daemons is not part of CSM rules. Whether you need a detachement of CD in order to make them.competitive is irrelevant.

What you propose is quite frankly preposterous. How is Codex: your favorite legion any different from the black legion supplement?
How is Supplement: some unit any different from datalslates.

I agree with 1 thing you've said: Be'lakor, Cypher and other special characters should definately be printed in the next regular codex.

I´ve seen a maximum of 3 books played simultaneously ( core, supplement, IA13. ) So it´s not like you need all of them to have "a good set of rules" -it´s more like all of them + a Codex of an army that isn´t even CSM ( as a sidenote I disagree about needing Daemons to make a competitive army. )

techsoldaten wrote:
But imagine if the CSM ruleset products looked more like this:

- Codex: CSM: $50 (including Be'Lakor, Cypher, all HQs, and all existing units)
- Codex: Your Favorite Legion: $50 (with special rules, FOC changes, a unique unit or two and artefacts for each)
- Supplement: Some Unit: $10 (Including formations w/ special rules)
- Codex: CD: $50 (for actual daemons)

Sounds a lot cleaner, huh?

...Wait, but that's what we have. We have a CSM codex, and you can buy for your favorite legion (that they've done up so far), some units as one-off unit rules and a codex for demons.

You're only making it sound confusing. I don't know who, for example, is buying both black legion and crimson slaughter. Certainly not everyone is running out and buying imperial armor (and FW stuff is never straight rolled into 40k rules anyways). Plus, listing dataslates by name in the first example, and then summarizing as "some units" is exactly a fair comparison.

Certainly it was simpler back when we had the codex system, but those times are rather gone, now.

What Ailaros is saying.

I run CSM dex, with Cypher and Helbrute dataslate. I'm gonna pick up IA 13 too though, and maybe even an SM dex.

I don't mind the dataslate formats. It gives them a way of fixing units, like the Helbrute, that seriously needed a boost.

I'd rather they took the time to produce a quality product rather than fleecing me for $100 for a dex (thats NZ pricing for a standard codex), then releasing fixes as dataslates for more money later.

I'd rather see:

Codex: Traitor Legions (all 9 properly represented)
Codex: Lost and the Damned (Cult, Renegade Guard, Mutants and Heretics)
Battlebrothers with each other as well as with Codex: Chaos Daemons.

Renegades I see as unnecessary as these are represented by Codex: Space Marines easily enough.

Id rather they just allow all the supplements to be mixed and matched artifact wise, throughout the already existing codecies.

The artifacts should be anyways. There is no reason to pay 50$ just to have a viable 4 wound Jugger lord who has a 2+ save due to an artifact. Exclusive Artifacts sucks. All artifacts should be coupled into and used by Chaos Space Marines, 1 lord with an artifact from each of the books.

until it's announced I'm not gonna buy these rumors. my guess is that CSMs are getting some sort of "levithan treatment" and the rumormongers are just confused

I agree that it's way too fragmented. When I started I wanted to build mainly daemons along with a nice sized CSM force as an ally/alt. Now I keep hearing about and seeing units that aren't in the rules I paid for and it discourages me from buying into the army. I thought I already paid for the army's rules; I don't want to pay more just to have the compete set when the prices are already outlandish.

While it can be a bit annoying its not like you A) need all the books/dataslates and B) Are the only codex that needs other supplements.

It really seems like the CSM community is the one that complains the most though. The codex isn't perfect but neither are any of the others.

Yes, it is way too fragmented. If nothing else, I look forward to our update so that everything is just more organized. As for the cost, some people just pirate it all. Not me...

But other people

The supplements should all consolidated into a single book if only for the fact that what you pay for the core CSM rules is absolutely not worth the actual content you receive.

edit- As far as the next edition, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the supplement material was added into it. You pay $60 and get the same crap they've been giving you for the past few editions, then release a FAQ for the supplements.

This does kind of explain why my boyfriend droped chaos at the end of 6th. 300$ for codex is horrible considering you need rule books on top of it too.

I play both CSM and Tyranids and this is true for both of these armies. The price of the Codices is ridiculous to start with, so to add the cost of the dataslates and supplements is just mind numbing. Never mind the fact that should you actually want to win any games you need to field the FW units and then need the correct book for those. There is also no way the supplements need to carry basically the same price tag as the parent 'dex. No, I don't need EVERYTHING that they have released, but, especially for Tyranids, the main codex is not enough if you actually want to compete regularly. Fortunately within my game group we share books, so not one person has to buy everything; without this set up, I would no longer be able to play this game.

I wonder how this looks in actual games, where opponents make you go through one book, then check the other one, then how it works with the ally force , ask for faq and then call you for stalling the game.

 Ailaros wrote:

You're only making it sound confusing. I don't know who, for example, is buying both black legion and crimson slaughter. Certainly not everyone is running out and buying imperial armor (and FW stuff is never straight rolled into 40k rules anyways). Plus, listing dataslates by name in the first example, and then summarizing as "some units" is exactly a fair comparison.

Nah, man, it's pretty confusing. Even GW store managers can't keep it all straight. The only other army I know of this much reference material is Tyranids.

And yeah, I own all these items.

It's rather easy to learn the extra rules for the supplements and dataslates. Just write down what you need or memorize it and you don't need to make an extra purchase.
It becomes a problem with tournaments or when playing with people you don't know though, I guess.

Like Tzeentch, the rules were fragmented and flung out into space after a great battle in the warp with Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh.

Now the hunch-backed scribes at Games Workshop are busy collecting the rules from the dark corners of their minds (and from other gaming systems) and collating them.

Sure they are ever changing and seldom make sense altogether in each released edition, but once all of them are combined, it will make sense.

You wasted your money and should have bought a snowboard.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
There is no reason to pay 50$ just to have a viable 4 wound Jugger lord who has a 2+ save due to an artifact.

I thought part of paying the $50 is to have extra fluff.

Every set of Codexes is too fragmented. GW's got this idea that they have to make money off the rulebooks and they make them hilariously expensive and keep making more of them. My 3e Daemonhunters army requires three separate Codexes today.

If I were writing 40k I'd put out nine big thick hardcovers (Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Inquisition/Minor Imperial, Eldar/Dark Eldar, Forces of Chaos, Necrons, Tau, Orks, Tyranids) with appendix sections to cover the dataslate and supplement content (sort of like how Codex Craftworlds, 30k, and the 4e SM Codex handled these things) and release extra appendixes in White Dwarf/on iBooks as needed instead of splitting the game up into more and more and more different books GW loves to claim are full-size standalone Codexes and really, really aren't.

I reckon they'll start releasing rules on the back of boxes of Khorne flakes each week to encourage you to keep buying them

I don't think it's just chaos marines, although they are a good example. Chaos isn't/wont be just fragmented, it's also devoid. Having to pay extra to fix the basic codex is bad enough, but having to do so at launch is ridiculous.