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 Azreal13 wrote:
Yes chap, I'm aware. In reality, Guardsman should probably have a BS of 2.8 and Guardians 3.3, but the system isn't in small enough increments to allow that.

Making carpenters, sculptors, musicians and chefs who are only pressed into service when the need is great the same shooting accuracy as Aspect Warriors, who dedicate all of their time for centuries to nothing but fighting and humanity's finest genetically enhanced super humans is just too far, both in a fluff sense and a rules one.

Nobody was calling for Guardians to be WS/BS 4 before the current book, and it wasn't needed to make the current book good.

In my old Craftworld suplement Ulthwe guardians already had BS and WS 4. The point of the guardians is that they are just limited to lowly 12" shuriken catapult which already reflect that they cannot handle anything with longer range or power (besides the pllatform). That is why the aspects get their awesome weapons and special rules. A guardian with a warp generator would probably get eaten by daemons on the first jump and they couldn't move freely in hevier armor like the aspects do.

Well the fluff is all about eldar being quicker and more agile than humans, meaning than enhanced humans should be at best on pair with them, plus they get extra toughness. Saying that it is true that the most befitting solution would be upping the Speeh Meerens and aspects to WS BS 5, but that would break the game.

Ulthwé Guardians are a special case, their Guardians have always been superior to others as they lean more heavily on them than some other Craftworlds.

The fact remains, just because something is X in the fluff, it doesn't mean it should be Y on the tabletop if it inhibits the balance of the game.

If that were the case, Space Marines would only need a Tac Squad to eliminate just about anything.

Came up with some good ideas on this thread.
Just reducing it to an inv would be the best idea, but those people saying it should be Heavy Support are being a bit harsh.
Maybe 90-100 points, 5+ inv save or the anything higher than strength 8 counts as strength rules would be fine I think. Since it has no access points and it's loosing the shield it can stand to be a few points cheaper.
And yeah, every Eldar guardian has undergone extensive training and has fought for much longer than any guardsman. Also many of them have not always been 'carpenters, sculptors, musicians and chefs' because they change paths all the time and some of them may have been 'Howling Bansees, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and Warp Spiders' on previous paths and therefore be readily combat trained.
This is the same as the Dire Avenger may have only just started on the path, previously spending their entire life as a poet. The Eldar change paths all the time and have so many experiences, the most dedicated of which are therefore BS5 Exarchs, who are dedicated to their path so much that they can never leave it.
Also the people who pilot vehicles are trained as pilots, they are not regular guardians.

I didn't say that's what they'd always been, it is what they currently are, and as much as some may have been Aspect Warriors when following a previous path, many may have not.

Regardless, this isn't a 40K Background thread, and randomly giving Guardians (and consequently all Eldar vehicles, Jetbikes, artillery etc..) BS4 was a bad idea from a gameplay point of view and exacerbates a lot of the other issues with the book.

60" D3+3 shots S:4 AP - Ignores Cover. Perhaps one use only.

Serpent shield to maybe something like 12" or D6+6" (to be annoying really. ). Kept as a close ranged "oh crap" thing.

In second thought, I like that "close-range-oh-crap" thing. I kept the long 60" range in my quick reply just to stand true to the original Wave Serpent, introduced back in the years of 2nd Edition Epic, which seems to be the inspiration for the current Serpent Shield.

But really, it's a different weapon from a different scale and a different game. Serpents in present-day 40k are troop transports, and as such they should be zooming to the frontlines, not hiding in the backfield sniping foes from afar.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd be down with dropping the serpent shield mechanics entirely and just giving it a 5+ invuln.

So long as it goes down to ~70 points in cost, maybe 80. Without the shield it's nowhere near worth 105 points.

70pts effectively Chimera priced. With the huge advantages of Jink on demand (with access to wargear that enhances that), on top of being Fast and having AV12 sides and twin linked BS4 weapons with an innate 5+ invul, 70-80pts would be a drastic steal.

I'd forgotten that the Chimera was bumped up to 65 (lulz, GW). But that said I think 80 points is perfectly fair. One of those "twin linked BS4 weapons" is str 4 and the other is an AP4 multi-laser with 12'' less range. It also has zero fire-points -thus your troops have to actually disembark to do anything- so I think the skimmer rules and +1 AV on the side is a fair trade up for 80 points base.

edit- I wouldn't mind seeing the side-AV go down a notch, actually. The damn thing is a troop-carrier, not a tank.

It's +2 AV on the side next to a Chimera (they've always hide side AV10) on top of being 65pts now (they really did put the hurt on the poor Chimera with the last codex)

Still, the Chimera's weapons are less impressive in general and are only hitting 50% of the time instead of nearly 90% of the time, with far fewer upgrade options (especially as the Wave Serpents weapons are almost all the same price). Even a Devilfish, though it enjoys Skimmer benefits as well, is not Fast, is also BS3 (and most of its weapons are not Twin Linked), has side AV11 instead of 12, and shorter ranged weaponry, and no Shield system at all, also has no fire points, and is 80pts base.

The Devilfish is (rightly, imo) widely considered one of the worst units in the codex, in fact in the running for worst dedicated-transport.

It's one of the hard things about trying to use other units as a metric for gauging the worth of another unit in points. You kind of need those units to be priced sensibly for it to work, and in the case of the 'Fish and now the Chimera, that's just not the case. What they did to the Chimera in particular hurts the heart. There was absolutely no need for the double-nerf. fething taurox.

RE: the Guardian debate: Guardians being BS4 makes sense, because to say that they're merely conscripts is inaccurate. Due to the nature of Craftworld society, Eldar change "jobs" frequently. An Eldar chef could have been a farseer at one points in his/her life, while a hardened Dire Avenger veteran could have been a painter. As a Guardian is merely just a civilian Eldar given a gun, it's feasible to expect them to nominally be BS4 since many Eldar if not most of their society are war veterans.

If IG Veterans can be BS4 after surviving a handful of battles, which is what the IG codex paints them as, it's certainly feasible for Guardians to be BS4.

Not arguing the point, but Farseers are seers Lost on the Path, so its one of the few roles a guardian hasn't been.

Make the Serpent Shield attack One Time Use at reduced range and make the Serpent no longer able to gain the benefits of the Shield in any form for the rest of the game.

Piss and moan about it online.

I would trade everyday the serpent shield offensive capabilities for a cheaper transport or/and an assault transport. I want to field Aspect warriors and wraithguard and let them bring the pain to my enemy, but it is impossible when the only way to keep squishy Eldar alive more than 1 turn is being in a serpent and it usually costs as much or more than the unit it contains.

Make the Shield a template, one use, and allow it when fired to act as a Assault transport as discussed previously

If the Serpent actually cared about jinking reducing its firepower then it would be a thing.

But it doesnt really have to when it is within Scatter Laser range.

 Vaktathi wrote:
If the Shield concept is to be kept, just make it an invul save. The whole silly thing about it being a "cannon" came from its Epic incarnation, IIRC before it was ever a transport, and when Armorcast made the only 40k model for it, just drop that whole concept

Make it a 5+ invul like the War Walkers. That way Jink still has a purpose, the wargear still fits in nicely with other unit's shields, and the shield still has value in providing a level of protection against any and all incoming fire (including Ignores Cover weapons), or if the Wave Serpent chooses not to jink. Maybe drop 10pts off the base cost then?

This gets my vote.

It can stay exactly the same, just raise it's point cost to be reasonable for all the things it can do. The way most players run them, they cost 130?. If that cost was instead 175 or 180, it would be more balanced.

Don't ask where I pulled that number from...it just feels right.

 Voidwraith wrote:
It can stay exactly the same, just raise it's point cost to be reasonable for all the things it can do. The way most players run them, they cost 130?. If that cost was instead 175 or 180, it would be more balanced.

Don't ask where I pulled that number from...it just feels right.

But a transport can't cost 180 points, that is the problem, either we get another transport and the serpent becomes HS or just nerf it and reduce its cost. And Eldar DO need a transport.

 Voidwraith wrote:
It can stay exactly the same, just raise it's point cost to be reasonable for all the things it can do. The way most players run them, they cost 130?. If that cost was instead 175 or 180, it would be more balanced.

Seems more logical to just drop some stuff than to have a dedicated transport cost close to 200pts.

Arnais wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
It can stay exactly the same, just raise it's point cost to be reasonable for all the things it can do. The way most players run them, they cost 130?. If that cost was instead 175 or 180, it would be more balanced.

Don't ask where I pulled that number from...it just feels right.

But a transport can't cost 180 points, that is the problem, either we get another transport and the serpent becomes HS or just nerf it and reduce its cost. And Eldar DO need a transport.

Land Raider. 240 (minimum) dedicated transport.

 Happyjew wrote:

Land Raider. 240 (minimum) dedicated transport.

But marines also have access to other, cheaper dedicated transports - rhinos, drop pods and razorbacks.

Would you be happy for all those to be removed so that you were just left with land raiders?

Arnais wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
It can stay exactly the same, just raise it's point cost to be reasonable for all the things it can do. The way most players run them, they cost 130?. If that cost was instead 175 or 180, it would be more balanced.

Don't ask where I pulled that number from...it just feels right.

But a transport can't cost 180 points, that is the problem, either we get another transport and the serpent becomes HS or just nerf it and reduce its cost. And Eldar DO need a transport.

This one can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Land Raider. 240 (minimum) dedicated transport.

But marines also have access to other, cheaper dedicated transports - rhinos, drop pods and razorbacks.

Would you be happy for all those to be removed so that you were just left with land raiders?

If Land Raiders could do what WS did, probably. I imagine it would get boring after a while though. But Eldar players never seem to get sick of the WS...

Make shield one shot per game and once fired, it's gone as a defensive asset. Reduce range to 24" maybe.

Boost its points significantly. The falcon is cool, players should have a reason to take it.

Maybe they should make a stripped down Eldar transport; maybe a Vyper variant that function like a Storm.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe they should make a stripped down Eldar transport; maybe a Vyper variant that function like a Storm.

That's an interesting point, actually.

Have the WS as a very expensive transport (effectively the Eldar equivalent of a Land Raider), and then give them a cheaper transport with less defence and firepower.

Not sure if I prefer it to just removing some stuff from the WS, but it's an interesting possibility.

Martel732 wrote:


If Land Raiders could do what WS did, probably. I imagine it would get boring after a while though. But Eldar players never seem to get sick of the WS...

Don't tar us all with the same brush!!! I don't like wave serpents because of this either!!!
And also, Eldar can't have a 180 point dedicated transport. Most armies have more than one to choose from and Eldar only have one as it is. Plus the Wave Serpent is already one of the most expensive ones out there, if it was 180 points then it would be very difficult to take it.
And the Falcon cannot transport Wraithguard/Wraithblades. If a WS was 180 points base, then to transport a squad of wraithguard would cost almost 350 points. Which isn't really affordable in a 2000 point list let alone a 1500 or less.
A nerf is more appropriate than raising the point cost, unless GW provide us with a new Dedicated transport, ideally some sort of assault vehicle as we're the only army who needs one but doesn't have one as far as I know. (Which we could get in the Harlequin supplement which is rumoured to be arriving?)

The Wave Serpent is definitely better than a Rhino, but I'd love to have a Rhino to move my Aspects on occasion.

That said, we do have a lower firepower & survivability transport. Its called the Falcon. Our MBT. And it costs more. Shows how broken the Serpent's firepower is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was hoping the last day of the Advent calender was Harlies. Where GW's gift to the game was a WS errata... (And hoping they get a DT clowncar. Needing to take a DE ally and use my favorite slot just for the clowncar is disappointing.)

Actually an appropriately priced transport would do wonders for the army size.

I often see Eldar armies on the table and I'm like "Dying race my ASS!" with how many tanks they can field!

My personal theory is that the wave serpent shield originally had a range of 0" and it was supposed to be an anti assault weapon (like the Tau flechette launcher) that could be used in the shooting phase to hit everything base to base with it. Then at the last moment before the book got published someone decided to raise the range to 6" so it could hit more models. They typed in "6" in the editing program but forgot to remove the 0. The rest is history...

It's a pretty silly idea but I figured I'd share it.

 dementedwombat wrote:
My personal theory is that the wave serpent shield originally had a range of 0" and it was supposed to be an anti assault weapon (like the Tau flechette launcher) that could be used in the shooting phase to hit everything base to base with it. Then at the last moment before the book got published someone decided to raise the range to 6" so it could hit more models. They typed in "6" in the editing program but forgot to remove the 0. The rest is history...

It's a pretty silly idea but I figured I'd share it.

Well, smaller mistakes have made larger screw-ups, so I can get behind it

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe they should make a stripped down Eldar transport; maybe a Vyper variant that function like a Storm.

Venom/Raider?