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so, obviously WYSIWYG is a thing, its RAW and all that, this is defiantly a HYWPI discussion.

But all the marines seem to come with bolt pistols, but no BP's, or just one for the sgt in most marine boxes.

How do you deal with this where you are?

Anyone actually holding all SM players to account for this even though it means buying kits just for BP's?

Well, you can give peopel grenades, but those are rarely modelled on. Rule of thumb is generally is the MAIN weapon (ie rifle) modelled? yes, then that covers most of it. You wouldn't for example get piss about an ork warlord not having an attack squig modelled on.

From what I've seen, it is generally accepted that mundane wargear does not need to be modeled (granted you should still have a complete model).

So a model with a boltgun, and bolt pistol standard can be equipped with either one, however, a model taht exchanges his boltgun and bolt pistol would need both upgrades modeled.

As long as I knew that my opponent's models had a BP, I'd be fine with not actually seeing it. I've heard of a couple issues from fellow SW players that have to deal with the CCW upgrade on their Grey Hunters because their opponents keep thinking that they have to trade in the BP for a chainsword.

I play it where a model needs only to have upgrades, and its primary basic gear modeled.

Gear like grenades and pistols is incidental. Besides, they don't actually give you enough bits to give everyone krak and frag grenades, on top of a bolt pistol.

"In the Grimdarkness of the Far Future, there are still pockets."

I don't think this ought to be an issue at all. GW doesn't provide us with a suitable bolt pistol to use so where does that leave us?

If you have to start hacking up bolt pistols to glue onto Tac Marines then you are playing with the wrong group. There is a not so fine line between enforcing the rules and being a total jerk. Asking opponents to glue a grenade onto their models in order to use the grenade falls clearly on one side of that line.

 goblinzz wrote:
You wouldn't for example get piss about an ork warlord not having an attack squig modelled on.

I wouldn't 'get piss' about it, but that's exactly the sort of wargear that should be modelled.


For the original question, I prefer everything to be as close as possible to WYSIWYG, as it makes playing the game so much easier if you can just look at the models and see what they have.

But that's just a preference. It's generally not a big deal if basic equipment isn't all modelled, so long as it's clear to both players as to who has what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:

If you have to start hacking up bolt pistols to glue onto Tac Marines then you are playing with the wrong group. There is a not so fine line between enforcing the rules and being a total jerk. Asking opponents to glue a grenade onto their models in order to use the grenade falls clearly on one side of that line.

WYSIWYG isn't something that should need to be forced on you. It's something that you should be trying to adhere to as a courtesy to your opponents, unless you have agreed otherwise with them.

 easysauce wrote:
so, obviously WYSIWYG is a thing, its RAW and all that, this is defiantly a HYWPI discussion.

But all the marines seem to come with bolt pistols, but no BP's, or just one for the sgt in most marine boxes.

How do you deal with this where you are?

Just for the sake of amusement, I'd like to see someone try and argue that you can lose standard gear you have no option to remove if it's not modeled on.

Implied ugrades dont need to be modeled. You cant model everything a unit has.

Almost all Eldar Psykers come with Pistols, but very few of the models actually come with it modeled, alot of them have two handed staffs and such.

The model is just a depiction of the unit during a small glimmer of time.

Speaking of Eldar and WYSIWYG, their previous codex actually required WYSIWYG. Right before the army list section it said that all your models must be modeled with all their equipment and upgrades.

Considering none of the kits that are for Space Marines do not include anywhere near enough bolt pistols to properly model them on the squad, I think it is essentially impossible to get BPs on all of the marines that have them.

It's far from impossible. It does mean either scavenging extra bits or sculpting holsters, though.

BP's are fine, unless you switch out for a chainsword. Then you should model it WYSIWYG.

Basic kit don't really need to be modelled on. Upgrades, such as melta bombs, plasma guns, Meltaguns, etc. do need to be modelled, Imo.

 easysauce wrote:
so, obviously WYSIWYG is a thing, its RAW and all that, ...

Where are the RAW for WYSIWYG, I can not seem to find the rules for WYSIWYG in the rulebook.

If you can not cite a page then clearly WYSIWYG is not RAW.

WYSIWYG, as far as I've known, says to clearly show upgrades on models.

Standard equipment doesn't have to be shown. If every marine is armed with bolter and bolt pistol, then you have free license to model your space marines kneeling in prayer, so long as plasma gunners have plasma guns and melta gunners have meltaguns

Idk why but this just reminded me of the time me and a friend were playing a game and this random dude comes up to us and says, "that terminator shouldn't get a 2+ save cuz its missing a shoulder pad."

WYSIWYG used to only apply to upgrades (and at one point debatably only characters). However it is no longer in the rules at all so now is mere convention and courtesy. Therefore trying to enforce SM players to put BPs on their guys when it is standard equipment that does not come with the kit makes you TFG. You have no rules to support your position and the fact they have BPs is clear regardless of the model so why would you force them to buy all those extra kits or model with Green Stuff that might be out of their skill bracket?

The rule is gone entirely? Odd.

Well, it IS a courteous thing to do, and most tournaments specify in their rules that WYSIWYG, and in my experience go by the older meaning whereby models have to show upgrades, but not standard equipment.

It has made things rather annoying for my chaos marines, who now if they want to take ccw as well, I have to paint and then glue a bunch of knives or chainswords to their hips or legs.

I try to model all my marines with bp and bg but sometimes a bit snaps off. It's not a big deal to me.

Be careful with topics like this......GW might see it and introduce their new compulsory "Bolt pistol upgrade pack!"

 DeathReaper wrote:
Where are the RAW for WYSIWYG, I can not seem to find the rules for WYSIWYG in the rulebook.
If you can not cite a page then clearly WYSIWYG is not RAW.

I'm glad there is no RAW for that, it would be terrible if GW implemented that.

Often I take stuff like melta-bombs because I have spare points left.
Can you imagine the amount of models I would need to have every combination modelled?
That's why I love my Necrons so much, it's incredibly easy to obtain WYSIWYG on them.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Be careful with topics like this......GW might see it and introduce their new compulsory "Bolt pistol upgrade pack!"

Forge world already have one (but not compulsory) - http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-and-Accessories/PHOBOS_PATTERN_BOLT_PISTOLS_AND_PACKS.html

People! Don't you know that Space Marines keep their bolt pistols inside internal thigh holsters, like in Robocop?

Its not in the 7th book, but even when it was previously what did Necron players have to represent half their upgrades, haha. We have five different crypteks with one generic model, ha! WYSIWYG shouldn't have been enforced as long as their is a clear discussion beforehand.

 NakedSeamus wrote:
Its not in the 7th book, but even when it was previously what did Necron players have to represent half their upgrades, haha. We have five different crypteks with one generic model, ha! WYSIWYG shouldn't have been enforced as long as their is a clear discussion beforehand.

I have 27 individually modelled Crypteks, so it's hardly impossible.

sangheili wrote:Idk why but this just reminded me of the time me and a friend were playing a game and this random dude comes up to us and says, "that terminator shouldn't get a 2+ save cuz its missing a shoulder pad."

That model isn't wearing a helmet! Your save is reduced by one, and precision shots ignore your armor!

Aben Zin wrote:People! Don't you know that Space Marines keep their bolt pistols inside internal thigh holsters, like in Robocop?

I do always wonder, when they get into close combat and pull their pistol out, where do they stick their boltgun? Only a handful of mine have straps for them.

Is that a boltgun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

...It's a boltgun...

 kingbobbito wrote:
I do always wonder, when they get into close combat and pull their pistol out, where do they stick their boltgun? Only a handful of mine have straps for them.

The Horus Heresy books mention marines maglocking the bolters to their armour.

As someone who has attended a -lot- of tournaments, I've never met anyone who ever cared if bolt pistols and such were modeled. Even the douchiest of douche players that I've met wouldn't stoop that low, and they are few and far between.