Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I recently got my hands on the new IG (AM) codex for my counts-as ork force. Don't ask, it's complicated.

Anyway, the one big question I have is.. When it comes to killing flyers / FMC, what do? Vendetta's are insanely expensive, but I hear Hydras are garbage.. and kind of see why. Pask could do the job alright I guess, with preferred enemy and a rending punisher cannon he'd (mathmatically) glance a flyer to death each turn, if he can hit it. 24 inch range and the 45 degree up-swivel make that way more difficult.

I'm asking this question from a "general" point of view. I have a couple of game stores a little over an hour from me and also like to try and squeeze a game or two in at a new place whenever I travel. As such I've no consistent local meta or regular foes, anything and everything is possible. The list I'm planning on running is itself very russ heavy. Two tank commanders (one of which is pask), vets filling troop tax, and then a crapton of tanks backed up with a wyvern or two. I'm simply curious as to what various people think would be a reasonable call for handling light / moderate amounts of flying things.

Pask punisher. Poor range for taking out flyers. But if in range you are averaging about 4 st5 rending hits if he is your warlord. Doesn't sound much until you take into accout tank hunter. Now an AV12 flyer either has to jink when you shoot it or risk losing 1 to 2 hps (and suffering a pen) on average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not as good against FMCs.

Just do the obvious and bring Vendettas. Great anti-air, decent anti-tank, and they can deliver a small infantry unit to an objective late in the game.

Also, if you're taking a LRBT-heavy list with only the minimum troops tax just play the FW ABG list and take more LRBTs as your troops as well as some nice HQ/elite tank upgrades.

Which book is that in, IA 1, yes? Does it also have some good, non-vendetta oriented AA options?

I ask because I don't have any flyers of my own. I could pretty easily rig up some semi-orky anti-air battery / tank thing with whatever weapons it needs.. But don't really have the parts on hand to make an orky flyer.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Which book is that in, IA 1, yes?

IA1 second edition.

Does it also have some good, non-vendetta oriented AA options?

Just the same Hydra (which still sucks) and flyers. It doesn't fix your AA problems, but it does get rid of your troops tax and give you a better list overall.

 Peregrine wrote:
Just do the obvious and bring Vendettas. Great anti-air, decent anti-tank, and they can deliver a small infantry unit to an objective late in the game.

Also, if you're taking a LRBT-heavy list with only the minimum troops tax just play the FW ABG list and take more LRBTs as your troops as well as some nice HQ/elite tank upgrades.

+1 for what Peregrine said about the taking of Vendettas, they're expensive for a very valid (read lethal) reason

For what its worth the Hydra in the ABG list still has Closed top and more important Ignore Jink.

That's a good point. I'm curious though, does the most recent profile supersede the older variant? I ask because I play an Elysian list and have been using the new pricing for the Vendetta under the assumption that that was the done thing (admittedly I don't play much)

You use the profile that is included in the army list unless otherwise noted. So a Hydra from Armoured Battlegroup would still use the older Hydra Rules.

Haha, looks like I just gained 40pts a Vendetta and an extra 6 capacity! Thanks! Sorry for derailing the thread *fades into the aether*

Well in my local group i pay the most expensive of the two ponts price listed. It helps with cries of cheese.

You can take and aegis with a quad-gun, probably the best AA you can get pointwise. Considering you can give orders to the model/unit handing the gun. . You could also take some sabre defense platforms. Thats what Im rolling with AA-wise.

Fraktalen wrote:
You can take and aegis with a quad-gun, probably the best AA you can get pointwise. Considering you can give orders to the model/unit handing the gun. . You could also take some sabre defense platforms. Thats what Im rolling with AA-wise.

Are the sabres from IA? Also, I take it the armored battlegroup / closed-top-no-jink Hydra is from the same book?

Sorry for being a pest with regards to "what comes from wear", but I want to make -absolutely- sure I pin-point what I want before I get it. I know that there can often times be rules for things in multiple places when it comes to Forgeworld.

Also, while I'm on the point. Does the IA book include wyverns as well? Or would I have to do something wonky like ally in normal guard to get access to those.

When a unit is published in several sources, the most recent publication obsoletes any others of the same name and faction. You can't take the IA:1 Hydra or Vendetta, since Codex: Astra Militarum has updated them.

This only applies if the unit names are the same. An Armoured Battle Group's Siege Tank Squadron must pay the point costs listed in IA:1, since the "Leman Russ Squadron" in Astra Militarum is not an equivalent unit. In this example, that means paying higher point costs but having access to more upgrade options.

Well, then the Hydra from IA:1 is not the same as one from Codex: AM, since they have different options and rules, but you pay the points listed in IA:1. Otherwise, Codex: AM has updated the Leman Russ as well and you should use those rules as well as the cost associated with them, not to mention that Inquisition would have had to update its Chimeras to be like the ones in AM or Space Marines of any kind having to update most of their army every time a marine codex is released.

I would recommend that you use the rules listed in whatever army list you are using, unless you want a specific option (e.g. Autocannon Chimera) and either have permission or are prepared to argue about it.

Edit: To answer your question: Yes, the Sabre Batteries as well as the old Hydra are included in the IA:1 book. Wyverns are not, nor are you able to take them in any army except Astra Militarum (and maybe Renegades and Heretics from IA13?). You cannot take Sabre Batteries in any army except Astra Militarum, while the Hydra is included in most Imperial Guard-derivatives.

Fortifications are extremely good for AA. With the stronghold assault book, you can buy extra gun emplacements for a fortification. E.g. a Bastion with two Quad Guns.

I don't personally buy extra guns because I run Void Shields as my upgrades, but you can easily get a couple Quad Guns in one Fortification slot if you need.

The Vendetta is a little overcosted, maybe by 15 or 20 points, but it's still a very useful unit for what it does, so I generally take one to every game. Hydras aren't terrible and they're pretty cheap. People will, justifiably, point out that a Wyvern is better for the points, by far.

But, if you need Anti-Air, you can park one in the corner of a table, and have range to everything but the very far corner, so it can be useful if your opponent's aircraft are dog-fighting, or tackling other targets. They're also handy for taking on skimmers, in whom you will find the speed to be your undoing... so that's handy there too.

A Wyvern is better at what it does, for the points, but a Hydra is a cheap "add-on" to boost a very short list of Anti-Air units. I've started using a Hydra, with my Vendetta, as my main opponent often takes a Raven with a Talon, and then sometimes takes Land Speeders into the mix as well. I've enjoyed having it the two times I've used it.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Fortifications are extremely good for AA. With the stronghold assault book, you can buy extra gun emplacements for a fortification. E.g. a Bastion with two Quad Guns.

Nope. You can choose multiple "Building" upgrades, but only one "Battlements & Battlefield" upgrade per fortification.

Authors of Stronghold Assault, Battlements & Battlefield, wrote:Each fortification can purchase a single Battlement & Battlefield upgrade from the list below[...]

Aenarian wrote:Well, then the Hydra from IA:1 is not the same as one from Codex: AM, since they have different options and rules, but you pay the points listed in IA:1. Otherwise, Codex: AM has updated the Leman Russ as well and you should use those rules as well as the cost associated with them, not to mention that Inquisition would have had to update its Chimeras to be like the ones in AM or Space Marines of any kind having to update most of their army every time a marine codex is released.

By that logic, it's impossible to update any unit, since by definition, any meaningful update will have different options or rules.

Inquisition does not use the new Chimera or Valkyrie rules yet because there have been no new publications for the Inquisition faction since their Codex was published. Similarly, Blood Angels did not update their vehicles until the new Blood Angels codex was released.

It's very simple. Each faction has a set of units available to them. These units are periodically republished under the same name, sometimes with new point costs or options. You must use the most recent publication available to your faction.

Corollax wrote:

By that logic, it's impossible to update any unit, since by definition, any meaningful update will have different options or rules.

Inquisition does not use the new Chimera or Valkyrie rules yet because there have been no new publications for the Inquisition faction since their Codex was published. Similarly, Blood Angels did not update their vehicles until the new Blood Angels codex was released.

It's very simple. Each faction has a set of units available to them. These units are periodically republished under the same name, sometimes with new point costs or options. You must use the most recent publication available to your faction.

You claimed that "When a unit is published in several sources, the most recent publication obsoletes any others of the same name and faction. You can't take the IA:1 Hydra or Vendetta, since Codex: Astra Militarum has updated them.". As the discussion was about Armoured Battlegroup, he can take the IA:1 versions from them if he plays that army. The faction wording is also somewhat murky as at least the Armoured Battlegroup is considered by the identical to a standard IG/AM army, which would imply that the faction is the same.

He can also take the Hydra from IA:1 (as the Vendetta in IA:1 is only available when playing Armoured Battlegroup) if he wants to for his Astra Militarum army, and it will be up to his opponent to decide if its allowed. I use Chimeras with autocannons and none of my opponents bats an eye as they are modelled with it.

I'll also apologize for misreading what you said the first time, I missed the word "faction". But I get your point, even if I do not agree with it. Though I'm curious as to where it says that you must choose the most recent publication, as I cannot find that rule.

The unfortunate reality is that 40k is not a rigorously defined ruleset. They do not explicitly address how to handle obsolete books. Since Codices are usually done by batch update, it is usually sufficient to assume that older books are no longer valid. Any unit entries missing from the new book are simply unavailable.

Of course anything goes if your opponent allows it. In tournaments, players let tournament organizers make these decisions in their stead, so that everyone has a level playing field. Almost every tournament rules that obsolete codices aren't available for play.

Forge World complicates this. It's not uncommon for them to republish the same unit, with different rules, while an older publication remains otherwise still in use. In the absence of batch codex updates, it tends to work on the basis of Army List Entries. Since their unit descriptions are often nothing more than an Army List Entry, this is a good compromise.

I have the digital rulebook, so I can't can't give you a page number, but the "Choosing your Army" section has a special section explaining how an Army List Entry is defined. The section after then explains how factions are determined for supplements. Forge World publications can reasonably be considered a supplement, and would presumably follow the same rules. This is what I had attempted to describe earlier.

TL;DR: Anything goes if you can negotiate it with your opponent, but tournaments have an expectation that you use the most recently published rules for your units. This link can help you determine which publication to use for Forge World models: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Forge_World_and_Apocalypse_Rules_Index

EDIT: As to the ABG Hydra/Vendetta issue, I'm gonna humbly request that Peregrine field that one.

Corollax wrote:
EDIT: As to the ABG Hydra/Vendetta issue, I'm gonna humbly request that Peregrine field that one.

And I will. The answer, in three parts:

1) The ABG Hydra and Vendetta are used exactly as they are printed in IA 1. The fact that similar units in the IG codex have been given different rules is irrelevant, just like how tactical squads in C:SM didn't change their rules when the new BA codex (which has tactical squads with different rules) was released. Sometimes this is a good thing (better Vendettas and Hydras), sometimes it's a bad thing (weaker LRBTs). Also note that this is only the case because all of the relevant units have their rules published in the ABG army list. If, instead, they gave the name of the unit and a "see Codex: IG for rules" statement (as some FW army lists have done) then those references would point to the new rules and you would use them just like you would in a codex army.

2) If you assume (with very strong evidence, even if it isn't 100% explicit) that the ABG list is an IG faction supplement you can take the ABG Hydra and Vendetta in any IG faction army and benefit from the better rules. You can also mix any other units you want: get the upgraded codex veteran squads, mix in some DKoK artillery, etc. This is an unfortunate consequence of GW's idiotic faction/allies system, where they effectively say "take whatever you want" and don't bother to consider the fact that people might abuse those options. A sensible house rule would be to require that all detachments come from a single army list instead of from a single faction. In that case you would have to include a full ABG detachment to include those Vendettas/Hydras/whatever.

3) If you are mixing army lists from the same faction for the sole purpose of getting access to an older and more powerful version of a unit then you should not be surprised if people are less willing to play with you. Expect to be put into the same category as unbound abuse, LoW in 750 point games, etc. Yes, it might be legal RAW, but you're exploiting a badly written rule to gain an advantage

Thanks. Exalted.

Pask's prefered enemy is a warlord trait. He also requires another tank in a squadron.

I used to run IG allies with Pask in 6-th when we were AOC. Before the IG update, it was an exterminator with HB sponsons and LC. After an update it was a punisher with lc and mm + eradicator. Great combo even without prefered enemy.

However, now i'd think twice before bringing LR tanks. The reason is a 6' "one eye open" bauble. This tanks need to be positioned close to the front so is your own stuff. Tanks that don't need it are a vanquisher which ain't bad but is nowhere near AA or exterminator which is a mid of the road multi-purpose tank that's not super-killy.

What i'd recommend now is a vendetta + comsquad with special weapons (preferably melta as orks lack such stuff) inside + veterans either with cammo cloaks AC/LC, can also make use of sniper rifles or a meltagun/meltabomb/krak nades just in case something comes for them in your backlines, or a set of weapons in chimera - melta or plazma once again, can also make use of 2 plazma/melta and heavy flamer, 4+ armor is quite nice for them - especially with plazma.

 koooaei wrote:
Pask's prefered enemy is a warlord trait. He also requires another tank in a squadron.

I used to run IG allies with Pask in 6-th when we were AOC. Before the IG update, it was an exterminator with HB sponsons and LC. After an update it was a punisher with lc and mm + eradicator. Great combo even without prefered enemy.

However, now i'd think twice before bringing LR tanks. The reason is a 6' "one eye open" bauble. This tanks need to be positioned close to the front so is your own stuff. Tanks that don't need it are a vanquisher which ain't bad but is nowhere near AA or exterminator which is a mid of the road multi-purpose tank that's not super-killy.

What i'd recommend now is a vendetta + comsquad with special weapons (preferably melta as orks lack such stuff) inside + veterans either with cammo cloaks AC/LC, can also make use of sniper rifles or a meltagun/meltabomb/krak nades just in case something comes for them in your backlines, or a set of weapons in chimera - melta or plazma once again, can also make use of 2 plazma/melta and heavy flamer, 4+ armor is quite nice for them - especially with plazma.

Thanks, but you miss the point Kooaei. My "counts as" army is all Orks acting as guardsmen - no units from Codex: Orks are present.

So just platoons of orks, somewhat shoddier looking tanks, and gigantic green (well, my orks are purple..) blobs of conscripts.

The issue with Hydras is that with the change to Skyfire they can only engage aircraft, if there aren't any your expensive tank might as well be a dancing bear (Before you ask the WHFB dancing bear was a limited run model and I doubt anyone would let you proxy one as a Hydra anyway). Your best solution in-Codex is almost certainly the Vendetta, price point or not; ground-based AA isn't very useful with the Skyfire change, and the Valkyrie doesn't put out enough high-Strength shots (it's a great air to ground vehicle, though). In-faction you do have access to a solid selection of Forge World Flyers; the Thunderbolt is a general-purpose plane that can take on most targets depending on its ordnance loadout but is also very expensive, the Lightning is weak unless it's on a very large (and by 'very large' I mean at least ten feet in one dimension) table, the Avenger is primarily a ground-attack aircraft but can take on Flyers fairly effectively, and the Vulture is very good at killing anything that annoys it.

My favourite AA solution in AM right now is the Punisher Vulture, but the Avenger and the Vendetta are better answers if you're fighting Stormravens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is an amusing-looking Orkified Vendetta at http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?367091-DA-GROT-REBELZ-Fully-Converted-Guard-amp-Ork-Army-Project if that helps.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Pask's prefered enemy is a warlord trait. He also requires another tank in a squadron.

I used to run IG allies with Pask in 6-th when we were AOC. Before the IG update, it was an exterminator with HB sponsons and LC. After an update it was a punisher with lc and mm + eradicator. Great combo even without prefered enemy.

However, now i'd think twice before bringing LR tanks. The reason is a 6' "one eye open" bauble. This tanks need to be positioned close to the front so is your own stuff. Tanks that don't need it are a vanquisher which ain't bad but is nowhere near AA or exterminator which is a mid of the road multi-purpose tank that's not super-killy.

What i'd recommend now is a vendetta + comsquad with special weapons (preferably melta as orks lack such stuff) inside + veterans either with cammo cloaks AC/LC, can also make use of sniper rifles or a meltagun/meltabomb/krak nades just in case something comes for them in your backlines, or a set of weapons in chimera - melta or plazma once again, can also make use of 2 plazma/melta and heavy flamer, 4+ armor is quite nice for them - especially with plazma.

Thanks, but you miss the point Kooaei. My "counts as" army is all Orks acting as guardsmen - no units from Codex: Orks are present.

So just platoons of orks, somewhat shoddier looking tanks, and gigantic green (well, my orks are purple..) blobs of conscripts.

AHHHHH, got ya! Than Pasknisher + a second tank is absolutely worth it. Protect it well with your grotscripts and a comisthread or a priestboy. It does lotsa killy dakka!

Don't forget the split-fire order.

Pasknisher is a universal tank that should be deployed close to the front due to it's shorter range. Not that it's a problem as it's a good idea to play more or less offensive as you have enough bodies to screen it and push forward. Keep PCS well-hidden and preferably barebones to be a lesser target magnet. A well-timed Move, move, move! or FRDSRF is priceless. That's one of the reasons you'd consider a comissar over a priest - to buff ld to 9 for orders.

The second tank in a squadron would depend on your needs.
Executioner works wonders with prefered enemy. Doesn't bother flyers at all, however.
Exterminator is fairly fine but not outstanding and allready has twin-linked main gun.
Eradicator is a great long-ranged anti-infantry tank due to s6 ap4 ignore cover pieplate and heavy bolters synergise well with the main gun. FW, Pathfinders and sniper drones hate it/

I'd probably go either with an executioner to make use of this rerolls or an eradicator. It's almost 2 times cheaper than a geared executioner.

The only dedicated AA that's worth it is a vendetta, though. Pask is a multi-purpose tank that will work super-great against vehicles and MC within 24'. Good vs infantry. And somewhat fine vs Flyers due to ROF. He won't demolish all air by himself but he'll help in this task.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
the Thunderbolt is a general-purpose plane that can take on most targets depending on its ordnance loadout but is also very expensive

The Thunderbolt sucks. It's more expensive than a Vendetta but has weaker guns, weaker armor, and no transport capacity. The only reason I can think of to even consider taking one is if you've filled up all of your fast attack slots, can't take another detachment to get more, and still need more flyers. And even then I'd almost always take the Avenger instead.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Before you ask the WHFB dancing bear was a limited run model and I doubt anyone would let you proxy one as a Hydra anyway

I'd let you proxy it as anything.

hydra is still probably the best anti-air the guard has despite the nerf. 4 twinlinked autocannon shots for that number of points is still good.