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Honestly, keep them the way that they are, but give them Angelic Visage (re-roll saves, fluff justification being that they're throwing themselves entirely into the Emperor's service) and FNP 5+. My main problem with them is that they just die in droves, even when they're doing what they're supposed to (eg, killed when their transport blows up, killed by overwatch, killed before they can strike in combat, etc). Re-rollable 6++ saves and 5+ FNP at least make them a little more reliable, while still being relatively fragile.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So with the 'reliable' rumor people shooting down a SoB release, is this thread dead?

I would think so. But the discussion about Repentia/Celestians/Penengines could go on in its own somewhere else.

Reliable rumormongers are rated on what they know, not what they don't know. They might not know anything about the SoB, it doesn't mean SoB aren't happening. This rumor started partially because someone said they were spotted going into production. GW has in the past started on production of something then sat on it for months and months before releasing it. IF SoB are a full release with pretty much every unit in the army getting new models then production maybe a longer more drawn out build up before the release.Their rumors only go out so many months and if SoB fall outside that window these guys might not have heard about and more likely GW has set a true firm date for SoB's release.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 andrewm9 wrote:


Even at 12 points they still won't thave much of a use. Really its not about the cost so much as to what is their purpose really? They seem to be aimed at assult but they are too slow at Initiative 1 and have almost no defenses to speak of. What kind of assault unit is that? They cannot really perform except perhaps once a game.Even a weaponless Dreadnaught can take 2 or 3 of them out before they can do anything about it. Anyway enough about Repentia. I have digressed considerably.

You say that, but the thing is, it only takes on average, 3 or 4 Repentia to kill a knight in a single turn.There are very few things that hit as hard as Repentia in close combat, and the fact that when Repentia charge they get four attacks each - five with the Sacred Standard in range - it really doesn't matter that only 2 will get to swing on average from a squad of 10 assaulting, because those two models hit harder than most full-strength squads.

I won't deny the strength of Repentia in melee, the problem is we're overpaying for that strength and then not getting any durability for it.

Also being able to run blobs of up to 20 would be nice just to make them better at having enough bodies to get places. And maybe give them their 5th ed AoF as a special rule that works automatically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So with the 'reliable' rumor people shooting down a SoB release, is this thread dead?

I would think so. But the discussion about Repentia/Celestians/Penengines could go on in its own somewhere else.

Disagree, the "no Sisters" responses have been "I don't know of Sisters getting an update" not "there is a 100% chance there is no update coming". Heck it's well established anything more than 3 months out (maybe less) can change faster than you can say "heresy".

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 andrewm9 wrote:


Even at 12 points they still won't thave much of a use. Really its not about the cost so much as to what is their purpose really? They seem to be aimed at assult but they are too slow at Initiative 1 and have almost no defenses to speak of. What kind of assault unit is that? They cannot really perform except perhaps once a game.Even a weaponless Dreadnaught can take 2 or 3 of them out before they can do anything about it. Anyway enough about Repentia. I have digressed considerably.

You say that, but the thing is, it only takes on average, 3 or 4 Repentia to kill a knight in a single turn.There are very few things that hit as hard as Repentia in close combat, and the fact that when Repentia charge they get four attacks each - five with the Sacred Standard in range - it really doesn't matter that only 2 will get to swing on average from a squad of 10 assaulting, because those two models hit harder than most full-strength squads.

I won't deny the strength of Repentia in melee, the problem is we're overpaying for that strength and then not getting any durability for it.

Also being able to run blobs of up to 20 would be nice just to make them better at having enough bodies to get places. And maybe give them their 5th ed AoF as a special rule that works automatically..

Blob of 20 WOULD be nice, but I disagree about them overpaying what they get.
At least, not overpaying by much.

They fall about as quickly as cultists, yes. but costs considered, they are probably the hardest-hitting unit in the game, meaning the excel at taking out things that are durable yet offer little to no fight (like tanks or even most walkers) or just going a "you killed more, but I won the cost game" path against superelites (centurions, MCs, etc)


The would be just fine if they were a BIT cheaper, or tougher-to make it slightly less economical to nuke them, or make it take slightly more effort.
But not much. as they are, at 11-12 points or with a simple FnP they would be just fine.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
So with the 'reliable' rumor people shooting down a SoB release, is this thread dead?

I would think so. But the discussion about Repentia/Celestians/Penengines could go on in its own somewhere else.

Disagree, the "no Sisters" responses have been "I don't know of Sisters getting an update" not "there is a 100% chance there is no update coming". Heck it's well established anything more than 3 months out (maybe less) can change faster than you can say "heresy".

 BoomWolf wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 andrewm9 wrote:


Even at 12 points they still won't thave much of a use. Really its not about the cost so much as to what is their purpose really? They seem to be aimed at assult but they are too slow at Initiative 1 and have almost no defenses to speak of. What kind of assault unit is that? They cannot really perform except perhaps once a game.Even a weaponless Dreadnaught can take 2 or 3 of them out before they can do anything about it. Anyway enough about Repentia. I have digressed considerably.

You say that, but the thing is, it only takes on average, 3 or 4 Repentia to kill a knight in a single turn.There are very few things that hit as hard as Repentia in close combat, and the fact that when Repentia charge they get four attacks each - five with the Sacred Standard in range - it really doesn't matter that only 2 will get to swing on average from a squad of 10 assaulting, because those two models hit harder than most full-strength squads.

I won't deny the strength of Repentia in melee, the problem is we're overpaying for that strength and then not getting any durability for it.

Also being able to run blobs of up to 20 would be nice just to make them better at having enough bodies to get places. And maybe give them their 5th ed AoF as a special rule that works automatically..

Blob of 20 WOULD be nice, but I disagree about them overpaying what they get.
At least, not overpaying by much.

They fall about as quickly as cultists, yes. but costs considered, they are probably the hardest-hitting unit in the game, meaning the excel at taking out things that are durable yet offer little to no fight (like tanks or even most walkers) or just going a "you killed more, but I won the cost game" path against superelites (centurions, MCs, etc)


The would be just fine if they were a BIT cheaper, or tougher-to make it slightly less economical to nuke them, or make it take slightly more effort.
But not much. as they are, at 11-12 points or with a simple FnP they would be just fine.

I'd be happier for that than 14ppm with no FnP and just a 6++.

 BoomWolf wrote:

True there.
And I must say the recet news about "GW 30k" sounds awefully fishy. I fail to see the gain there, any 30k "basic unit" they can do will just serve to bite into FW profits, as they already sell said models.
Armies like admech or genecult are well within reason (FW have yet to make a full admech range after all-the classic redcoats at the very least are missing, and 40k admech is most likely not the same thing as 40k admech) (clut is an old classic, but no FW or GW currectly represents them ATM, even with allies) but 30k marines?
We got bazilion 30k marine kits by FW already, and they are going to get even more for the following HH books.

If somehow GW does 30k marines before sisters get a real rework, I'd be shocked by the level of stupidity.
Even their dumbest moves were not THAT dumb.

The 30k stuff isn't just plastic 30k models, it's a game that'll be out for 6 months and then the models relegated to their own line to replace LotR/Hobbit on store shelves. If anything it'll take a load off of FW who has too much on their plate with the Heresy by taking the core model range and both making it more accessible (something that can never hurt, especially when Marines are involved) and letting FW hand all the specialist stuff (characters, legion specific things, vehicles and so forth). It's all the same company and sales at the end of the day all go the same place but we'd be crazy to think GW wouldn't want to cash in on this, especially since the new CEO apparently is a big 30k player.

Also the 30k rumors have 3 big name rumor backers right now so I'd be more surprised if it didn't happen.

Repentia have to get through a very shooty edition, overwatch and they go last in combat. The chances of two getting to swing against a competent opponent are next to zero and the chances that they'll earn their points back are even lower.

Believe me, I tried to get them to work but my opponents wouldn't let them close enough to their big targets. Over ten games my Repentia's body count is 2 dreadnaughts, 1 hellbrute, 4 Rhino's, 2 terminators and 1 chaos space marine. After that I put them on the shelf and scrapped my idea of a 'fluffy army.'

Didn’t they used to have a rule where they still got to swing, even if they were killed?

 MWHistorian wrote:
Repentia have to get through a very shooty edition, overwatch and they go last in combat. The chances of two getting to swing against a competent opponent are next to zero and the chances that they'll earn their points back are even lower.

Believe me, I tried to get them to work but my opponents wouldn't let them close enough to their big targets. Over ten games my Repentia's body count is 2 dreadnaughts, 1 hellbrute, 4 Rhino's, 2 terminators and 1 chaos space marine. After that I put them on the shelf and scrapped my idea of a 'fluffy army.'

In 5th edition I could reliably roll Repentia through about half my opponent's army once I got into combat and as long as I wasn't caught outside of it, during 6th I was able do pretty well up until the last update. That said the one game I did get them into combat this edition I nuked a squad of Nobs and their Warboss (all of which had FnP) in a single assault causing my opponent to immediately divert two other units at them in response. To be able to put that amount of fear of a unit into someone in a single assault is hilarious and something I've only ever accomplished with Repentia.

They still aren't that good though. They're all glass and very little cannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:
Didn’t they used to have a rule where they still got to swing, even if they were killed?

That was their 5th Edition Act of Faith. I wish it was a permanent rule for them just to make up for how squishy they are and how late they go in combat.

Sooo.newest natfka rumor rated at 4-5 stars by him ("extremely accurate" says the upcoming admech is a purely 40k creation, specifically the Skitarii subfaction.
He also gives a quote from the codex referring directly to using it in 40k, who might be faked, but natfka seems to have faith in the dude.

http://natfka.blogspot.co.il/2015/02/adeptus-mechanicus-for-40k.html

Sits well with the old rumors that said necrons->quins->skitarii->sisters (thought now it seems there might also be a khorne and/or
Hopefully it will remain that way.



As for repentia, their gratest strength is not in the damage they do, but in the damage they MIGHT do.
People in this game, especially in dakka, seem to understimate the effect of anything that is not directly killing, tanking or moving at immense speed. "threat units" like repentia, CC effects and zone control are completely ignored.

Repentia THREAT an assault, and force the enemy hand for a reasonable price to rotate around them. having a bunch hidden behind a wall will mean the enemy will dare not approach the wall untill some LoS ignoring gun takes care of them, if he even has any.
They don't need to reach the enemy lines, they need to discourage them from reaching yours. at least on that note.

Or on the offensive side, if you pack multiple repentia teams, multiple engine teams and multiple dominos squads-you create a serius threat overload for more opponents. the repentia are EASY to clear out, but there are just too many things that are too close, too fast, so despite being easy to kill-you can't get them all. kill the repentia, the dominos will keep blasting and engines will chrage in, take care of dominos and/or engines, and the repentia will get to you.
Not fullproof, but its a workable plan.

Not saying they are 100% perfect and amazing, but I am saying some people here seem to underestimate them and what they actually do.
They THREAT what will happen if god forbids you allow them to hit your lines.

Repentia lost a lot of their threat when the unit lost FnP. Now a stiff breeze can knock them down fairly quickly and the opposing unit can move on their way rather easily. They're scary in one assault, but after that they're spent and pretty worthless. The current AoF rules are not helping them in the least.

And wth do Guard get to use an Order every turn or Marines get an "always on" Chapter Tactic but we have to pick and choose for a 1 use only ability that requires a roll?

Oh all the things of the Sisters book I don't like the current AoF system is on top of my list.

And yes, Sisters were on the list for early summer but that may not be true. We'll know for sure as we go forward.

Well yes, the AoF system is silly.
Both 1-use and roll is bad, as it makes it a "when you need it most" type of thing, but gives no assurances you can actually TRUST it to work when you need it.

Comparing it to chapter tactics is not fair, as the acts are mostly far superior to any CT. and orders originate from a single unit and are not independat.
But I agree another system is needed. either more trustworthy, or more available.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well yes, the AoF system is silly.
Both 1-use and roll is bad, as it makes it a "when you need it most" type of thing, but gives no assurances you can actually TRUST it to work when you need it.

Comparing it to chapter tactics is not fair, as the acts are mostly far superior to any CT. and orders originate from a single unit and are not independat.
But I agree another system is needed. either more trustworthy, or more available.

Orders originate from command squads at both the HQ and Troop levels. If you build your army to capitalize on them you can easily have 8 units handing out orders every turn.

And some of the CT are worse, but there are others that are better.

The point was that we don't have a good system and are screwed over for rules that shouldn't be so limited when other armies get more uses out of theirs.

I like the current AOF system much more than previous incarnation but then I think the current Codex ifs not bad - its nowhere near complete or everything I woud want but it works well.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well yes, the AoF system is silly.
Both 1-use and roll is bad, as it makes it a "when you need it most" type of thing, but gives no assurances you can actually TRUST it to work when you need it.

Well you have to have FAITH that it'll work... duh. :-p

FORGE THAT NARRATIVE! :-p

 Mr Morden wrote:
I like the current AOF system much more than previous incarnation but then I think the current Codex ifs not bad - its nowhere near complete or everything I woud want but it works well.

5th had a better system. Sure the Faith Points were limited and random but it was a long shot better than only getting 1 use out of the same abilities (or with Repentia worse abilities since most things you want Repentia to fight are S6 or greater). I speak no hyperbole when I say I enjoyed the 5th edition rules for AoF over 6th's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well yes, the AoF system is silly.
Both 1-use and roll is bad, as it makes it a "when you need it most" type of thing, but gives no assurances you can actually TRUST it to work when you need it.

Well you have to have FAITH that it'll work... duh. :-p

FORGE THAT NARRATIVE! :-p

Sisters who can't rely on their Faith aren't good Sisters. There, narrative forged.

5th system's problem was the total lack of scaling.

500 point game? 5000 point game? same faith level.

Fate as generate-able resource would be the best (say, generated by diagonalis, by team leaders with the flagbook thing, by wiping out enemy units, etc)

The number of times I needed a couple (or more) of AOF in 5th and rolled a 1 for the turn - or started the game with a 6 when it was not use...................or rolled a 6 when I had one unit left ..

Plus it did not stack - so bigger the game - nope still just D6 AOF points

Whereas 6th Ed codex - you get one (or moredepending on your unit) per unit and usually it worked when I needed it.

so yep was and am still happy with it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
5th system's problem was the total lack of scaling.

500 point game? 5000 point game? same faith level.

Fate as generate-able resource would be the best (say, generated by diagonalis, by team leaders with the flagbook thing, by wiping out enemy units, etc)

I agree the lack of scaling wasn't good (at least early game, late game after you've lost a unit or two it starts to really pick up). 3rd wasn't bad for generating points, but I didn't enjoy the system as much and I honestly did better with 5th's system.

That said, has anyone else never been able to use the current Martyrdom? I never have models who can use their AoF by the time goes off because I've already used them.

 BoomWolf wrote:
5th system's problem was the total lack of scaling.

500 point game? 5000 point game? same faith level.

Fate as generate-able resource would be the best (say, generated by diagonalis, by team leaders with the flagbook thing, by wiping out enemy units, etc)

Honestly, if we're wish-listing completely... I would LOVE some kind of alternative list-building for Sisters, perhaps evocative of different ranks within the order... maybe something akin to some of the odd-ball formations we've seen from Necron recently.

Your faith generation idea reminds me of rumors before the newest Ork Codex dropped. Everyone loved the fluffy and fun rumors which suggested that volume of Orks on the table essentially generated warp-charges. Seemed very much in line with Orky "belief = make stuff work". Unfortunately, come release we saw that only in the most vaguely represented way, and only if you took a Weirdboy, and sat him near a clump of Boyz.

What I am saying is... GW seems highly averse to giving armies more mechanically unique flavor. We're lucky if an army gets two "army-wide" rules to give them character, and instead spent a long time going down the path of USR and phoned in detachments.

Hopefully the more weird experiments with the Harlequinn FOC, etc... will translate to a more inspired Sisters book. I would be soooo happy if we ended up with Sisters being a legitimately "different" army than "Lady Space Marines -5"

I think most of us want to see something like the Decurion just because it'd really make Sisters feel different from the Marines.

Since we are discussing rules and being wishlisty. I would recommend a system similar to 5th's WD codex with some emthod of scalability. For instance Canoness', Dialogous', Living Saints, possibly Veteran Superiors (Not normal Superiors) and Priests generating Faith each turn which while still limited in some has a way of growing based on your army size. Perhaps a random chance for most of them scaling up with the points value up to the Living Saint which always geneartes some. Faith shoudl be a powerful tol in the arsenal not some crappy way of getting a couple of random USR's.

The changes to Faith to me were really bad since other armies had easy or permanent ways of generating cool rules. Blood Angels I see your anger and magic cup. Guard I look at your Colonel yelling at you (nvm that voxes should have more than 20 feet of range). Marines, I am looking at centuries of tradition. Honestly I don't begrudge armies their cool stuff, but give Sisters some equivalent that doesn't suck. Especially if you are going define these as 'Miraculous' There really isn't anything Miraculous about Preferred Enemy considering Dark Angels get it versus Chaos Marines just becuase they hold a millenia-long grudge for which none of them were alive to witness or don't even fully understand. Same thing for Furious Charge. I mean the sentient fungus gets it along with the "angry" Blood Angels.

Anyway

in pure game terms:

Ignore Cover for Dominions is great - esp with Melta guns
Rending with Heavy Bolters - yep also great
Shred with Serepahim is not bad
Prefered enemy - worked well for me

Rending's nice even with just bolters, heh.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Rending's nice even with just bolters, heh.

To bad the reduced uses of it made the unit far less useful than it used to be.

 Mr Morden wrote:
in pure game terms:

Ignore Cover for Dominions is great - esp with Melta guns
Rending with Heavy Bolters - yep also great
Shred with Serepahim is not bad
Prefered enemy - worked well for me

The only problem with these is that ignores cover makes flamer Dominions basically useless and shred makes Infernus Pistol Seraphim basically useless. I rather like the current faith system/effects, but I imagine that they could balance the weapons a bit better perhaps.

When writing my Fandex, I made Acts of Faith harder to pull off and less available all the time. I used rules similar to Codex: Witch Hunters, with a little more leeway. Depending on the size of a squad, only half of the Acts of Faith will be easily performed. Acts of Faith also now cost up to 3 faith points, so you won't get as many Acts of Faith per turn as you have units. Every unit has all Acts of Faith available to them, but each unit also receives a buff specific to only them. Dominions get Twin-linked when using Holy Fusillade for example. This way Flamer Dominions actually have a use for their signature Act of Faith.


I'd also like to see a return of alternative army lists, instead of a Force Org with a few special rules tacked on, that nobody will use because it lacks Objective Secured. Just finished making an Ordo Hereticus Strike Force alternative army list for my Homebrew Codex Sisters of Battle: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148. It's the polar opposite of the Space Marines Siege Assault Vanguard army list. The list can only take Drop Pods and Flyers, and units that can either Deep Strike, Infiltrate, or be transported in a Flyer or Drop Pod. It does however have some sizable buffs, more Faith Points, and re-rolls on reserves, etc., but like the the Siege Assault Vanguard, it can only tie if it doesn't complete its compulsory objective, Slay the Warlord.

 Mr Morden wrote:
in pure game terms:

Ignore Cover for Dominions is great - esp with Melta guns
Rending with Heavy Bolters - yep also great

Ignore cover sucks on flamers, Rending suck on multi-melta.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
in pure game terms:

Ignore Cover for Dominions is great - esp with Melta guns
Rending with Heavy Bolters - yep also great

Ignore cover sucks on flamers, Rending suck on multi-melta.

Well yesbut Ignore Cover is one of the USR's that people always want in their codexes - plus as its usually a one off - the flamers work in subsequent turns on the off chance you survive.

Ignore cover does nothing for Flamers but is deadily and awesome for Melta guns ( AP1 and no cover save is always nasty) and good for Krak grenades, even bolt guns and Bolt pistols.

Re rending - well I donl't know abut you I would always rather auto wound that roll "anythig but a one" cos that happens far to often

I really found the 5th Ed version of AOF frustrating - 6th ed I can plan around them and know that it actually scales rather than D6 a turn even if we are playing a huge game.

Auto wound AFTER you roll a six.
You could have rolled a one just as well.

Rending on MM never has any effect in game, except if you are shooting at an AV14 target from outside the melta range, in that case you get a glance promoted to a pen.

Cover ignoring on flamers again has no effect in the game, at all. the only gain a flamer domino squad has is for any abletaive wound you might have around with their bolters, hardly noteworthy.

Dominos and Rets are great because they have a setup that works wonders, but their OTHER setups? are meh, the HF rets the only of the of the non-HB rets and non-melta dominos to even consider.
Just like the broadside, one setup works too well, the other serves no purpose.

What I wish to see for the dominos next codex is not a firepower act, but a SPEED act. something that lets them dash forward will be great.
And for the rets? how about RoF or range increasing act, rather than a simple rend?

wishlisting though :[