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40k rules always require a fair amount of suspension of disbelief, but usually its not too hard to come up with a narration that can explain a given quirk in some logical fashion.

That's what I thought until I got my first flyers and started using them. For all intent and purpose, they can block out a significant amount of ground space with their huge base. I ran into this issue in my last game when I wasn't able to make a bombing run with my voidraven, as the spaced out opponents troops were able to deny any valid "landing" (as in final position) space for my bomber.

The other way around, flyers can just as well deny enemy movement in a major way. While it is allowed to move over their base, the requirement of a final 1" distance from the base simply renders certain manoeuvres impossible.

I want to make the argument for zooming flyers, combat jets that travel at great speed and altitude. Its easy enough to imagine how something that hovers over the ground oppucies ground space in such a fashion.

While I can imagine that a warrior might flinch over the sound and shadow of a passing fighter jet, I don't see how it would restrict movement in such a major way. On the other side, the notion that a bomber pilot won't willingly pass over enemy troops is ridiculous, keeping in mind that it occupies each bit of airspace for only a fraction of a second.

Many flyers are equipped with something thats essentially infantry weaponry (bolters, splinter rifles) so the assumption can be made that they are flying really low in order to bring those guns to bear, and that is probably the only angle of approach for that issue.

The fact of something really fast, moving relatively high up in the air, having the ground impact of something like a Tervigon, is baffling. While it doesn't have ground presence per set (you can freely move over and through the base) it factually has, as the immense base since makes most crossing moves impossible.

From the other perspective, you could consider a pilots desire of plotting a course that steers the jet clear of enemy clusters, because after all most small arms fire can damage an airplane with a luky hit.

Anyway, I'm having troubles with coming to terms with that rule, but I'm not yet set on house ruling it. Maybe theres something that I'm just missing, something you guys can comment on. I appreciate any input, cheers!

Not really a YMDC question since there's no ambiguity in how the rules work, but the answer is "because GW sucks at writing good rules". The flyer rules in 40k are just plain awful, and whoever wrote them should be fired for their incompetence. But hey, flyer models are great for Forging™ The™ Narrative™ so be sure to buy a few!

It's purely a side effect of the flyer needing a base to hold it up, and that base needing to be free to move around.

40K isn't a simulation. There's a lot of abstraction for the sake of having a playable game.

You can also crash if there are too many models on the ground.

While I understand your point, I don't think this is a problem in the game as flyers can vary their movement range from 18 to 36" in an 180° arc.

 insaniak wrote:
It's purely a side effect of the flyer needing a base to hold it up, and that base needing to be free to move around.

No, it's a side effect of GW being stupid. They have a rule (WMS) for dealing with cases where a model is supposed to be in one location but has to be placed elsewhere, they could easily have said "if the flyer's model can not be placed at the desired end point of its move then use WMS". But, like a lot of GW's other rules recently, they seem to have been content to write half the rules and expect the players to do the rest.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
While I understand your point, I don't think this is a problem in the game as flyers can vary their movement range from 18 to 36" in an 180° arc.

It IS a problem vs a proper greentide.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
It's purely a side effect of the flyer needing a base to hold it up, and that base needing to be free to move around.

No, it's a side effect of GW being stupid. They have a rule (WMS) for dealing with cases where a model is supposed to be in one location but has to be placed elsewhere, they could easily have said "if the flyer's model can not be placed at the desired end point of its move then use WMS". But, like a lot of GW's other rules recently, they seem to have been content to write half the rules and expect the players to do the rest.

WMS isn't a good rule because this game uses true line of sight. If you can't place a model where its suppose to be then you can't accurately determine vision to and from the model's position which screws up more mechanics of the game. WMS is a bandaid, not a game mechanic.

 CrownAxe wrote:
WMS isn't a good rule because this game uses true line of sight. If you can't place a model where its suppose to be then you can't accurately determine vision to and from the model's position which screws up more mechanics of the game. WMS is a bandaid, not a game mechanic.

And TLOS for flyers is a stupid mechanic. The sad thing is GW even had it right in the old Apocalypse flyer rules, where flyers were assumed to always be high enough that they can draw LOS to any model and any model can draw LOS to them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
WMS isn't a good rule because this game uses true line of sight. If you can't place a model where its suppose to be then you can't accurately determine vision to and from the model's position which screws up more mechanics of the game. WMS is a bandaid, not a game mechanic.

And TLOS for flyers is a stupid mechanic. The sad thing is GW even had it right in the old Apocalypse flyer rules, where flyers were assumed to always be high enough that they can draw LOS to any model and any model can draw LOS to them.

Then you have someone completely enclosed in ruin walls still get shot, makes perfect sense.

The current works great because it lets you use cover tactically so avoid incoming air fire (for both ground units and air units)

 Peregrine wrote:
No, it's a side effect of GW being stupid. They have a rule (WMS) for dealing with cases where a model is supposed to be in one location but has to be placed elsewhere, they could easily have said "if the flyer's model can not be placed at the desired end point of its move then use WMS". But, like a lot of GW's other rules recently, they seem to have been content to write half the rules and expect the players to do the rest.

Meh, it's a lot easier to just not allow models to sit on the base.

GW aren't alone in going down that road for big models. WotC had a similar mechanic for their AT-AT.

I'd point out that although the Flyer rules refer to enemy Units having a 1" bubble, it specifically points out that it can end on top of friendly models.

WMC means your Ork flyer should have no issue being "above" your green Horde, even if enemy flyers could have an issue...

 koooaei wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
While I understand your point, I don't think this is a problem in the game as flyers can vary their movement range from 18 to 36" in an 180° arc.

It IS a problem vs a proper greentide.

It doesn't even need a Greentide. Position a grot 18" in front of a flyers base and fire a Traktor Kannon at it. A single immobilised result = death


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remembering of course that traktor kannons auto immobilise.

But hasn't the ruling for immobilizing flyers changed in 7-th? They used to get forced to move, now they can crash if you roll 1-2 or something like this.

On a 1-2 they die on a 3+ they have to move 18" exactly forward (which they can't do so they crash and burn).

 FlingitNow wrote:
on a 3+ they have to move 18" exactly forward (which they can't do so they crash and burn).

Do they automatically crash and Burn though?

I'm looking at the book and cannot see why that would be the case RaW:

"it must move 18" and cannot turn at all in its next Movement phase"
"the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models"
"A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassable terrain exactly as a Skimmer."

Are the only rules i can find. I then read the last one, and this:

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models, move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it."

So the flyer would be displaced "the minimum distance" away from said Grot, but not Crash...?

Under Zoom
"If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked"

 CrownAxe wrote:
Under Zoom
"If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked"

Indeed, but it would not be "forced to move less than", because the rule is "it must move 18".

If the flyer moved anything else than 18", you are breaking the "stunned" rule.

Grats you found another rule interaction that doesn't actually work

You can't put the flyer on the model, but you can't move it out of the way of the model because you can only move 18" straight forward.

The best thing to do is have it get wrecked because then it can't be breaking a rule because it's dead.

the flyer needs a base, so, unless you want to put your flyer ON the other models, or the other models on the fliers base, it takes up ground. love how everyone is jumping on the rules like it is some sort of major issue that they can't have people under the fliers. make sence to me, its not a rules issue, its a modeling issue. So unless you want an unstable flyer, you have to deal with it taking up ground space.

 CrownAxe wrote:
The best thing to do is have it get wrecked because then it can't be breaking a rule because it's dead.

Ah okay, HYWPI. I suppose it's the easiest method.

"If a Skimmer is forced to end its move over friendly or enemy models" for the "You can't put the flyer on the model" part though.

"move the Skimmer the minimum distance so that no models are left underneath it." Does not sound like it's part of the "forced move" because it actually happens after the "forced to end its move".

That would be my interpretation of the RaW (HIWPI?)

 Brennonjw wrote:
the flyer needs a base, so, unless you want to put your flyer ON the other models, or the other models on the fliers base, it takes up ground. love how everyone is jumping on the rules like it is some sort of major issue that they can't have people under the fliers. make sence to me, its not a rules issue, its a modeling issue. So unless you want an unstable flyer, you have to deal with it taking up ground space.

Agreed.

 Brennonjw wrote:
the flyer needs a base, so, unless you want to put your flyer ON the other models, or the other models on the fliers base, it takes up ground. love how everyone is jumping on the rules like it is some sort of major issue that they can't have people under the fliers. make sence to me, its not a rules issue, its a modeling issue. So unless you want an unstable flyer, you have to deal with it taking up ground space.

There is a lot of room on a flyer's base, if you feel like playing it that way. Just means you'd have to deal with the inconvenience of needing to lift units and place them back down on top of the base every time it moves.

changemod wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
the flyer needs a base, so, unless you want to put your flyer ON the other models, or the other models on the fliers base, it takes up ground. love how everyone is jumping on the rules like it is some sort of major issue that they can't have people under the fliers. make sence to me, its not a rules issue, its a modeling issue. So unless you want an unstable flyer, you have to deal with it taking up ground space.

There is a lot of room on a flyer's base, if you feel like playing it that way. Just means you'd have to deal with the inconvenience of needing to lift units and place them back down on top of the base every time it moves.

Pretty much how i see things currently. The amount of times i've had to do this (even by choice) is minimal.

I dont have the rule book to hand but I'm fairly certen that its stats the base can be ignored and units can even move onto it when moving etc.

Sort of. It does indeed say it can be ignored, but enemies must stay 1" away from it.

There is nothing in the rules about sharing the base with friendly Units though... That is just (my) HIWPI.

 Godeth wrote:
I dont have the rule book to hand but I'm fairly certen that its stats the base can be ignored and units can even move onto it when moving etc.

From the main rulebook (Flyers and Other Models):

However, when moving this way, enemy models must still remain 1" away from the base of the Flyer, and the Flyer the Flyer cannot end its move with its base within 1" of other enemy models.

 Peregrine wrote:
If the flyer's model can not be placed at the desired end point of its move then use WMS

I'll be going with that suggestion, thanks. Scratch one more silly rule.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If the flyer's model can not be placed at the desired end point of its move then use WMS

I'll be going with that suggestion, thanks. Scratch one more silly rule.

Note that 'Wobbly Model Syndrome' requires both players to agree to its use.

 Ghaz wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If the flyer's model can not be placed at the desired end point of its move then use WMS

I'll be going with that suggestion, thanks. Scratch one more silly rule.

Note that 'Wobbly Model Syndrome' requires both players to agree to its use.

No 'Wobbly Model Syndrome' does not require both players to agree to its use, read WMS again.

The rule stats that both players must agree on the models actual location.

" as long as both players have agreed and know its ‘actual’ location. " (WMS rules)