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They do, because the rules for Deep Strike say that any unit Arriving by Deep Strike(proven to be the case with GoI) is Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

This is the only place in the rules where Deep Strike Reserve is defined, and it is defined as Arriving by Deep Strike. Which is what you are doing when you use Gate of Infinity.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They do, because the rules for Deep Strike say that any unit Arriving by Deep Strike(proven to be the case with GoI) is Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.

This is the only place in the rules where Deep Strike Reserve is defined, and it is defined as Arriving by Deep Strike. Which is what you are doing when you use Gate of Infinity.

Ok, at the Danger of quoting too much i will show you clearly why that is an assumption (incorrect) that you are making:


In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.

It simply cannot follow the rules highlighted in orange, for many reasons:
Does the Unit "must have the Deep Strike special rule"?
Do "They always begin the game in Reserve"?
etc...

Arriving by Deep Strike (white section) does not mean you go into reserves. Unless the rules said they did.

Gate of Infinity says you use the Deep Strike rules. That means all of them. Including the orange bit. Does that mean you can't use GoI if the unit can't normally deep strike. Maybe, but thats not part of this discussion.

You are refusing to use all the DS rules, therefore you are breaking the game.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Spoiler:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)

In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.

You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives).
And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves.
You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.

Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Gate of Infinity says you use the Deep Strike rules. That means all of them. Including the orange bit. Does that mean you can't use GoI if the unit can't normally deep strike. Maybe, but thats not part of this discussion.

You are refusing to use all the DS rules, therefore you are breaking the game.

1) You can't decide to use ALL the Deep Strike rules, but then "ignore" "must have the Deep Strike special rule" or "They always begin the game in Reserve" out of convenience. Using all the Deep Strike rules makes it impossible by RaW.
2)When are you told to use ALL the Deep Strike rules anyway?

"arrives (...) using the rules for Deep Strike"

That is the RaW. The arrival of the Unit follows the rules for Deep Strike. That means you can safely skip the part about how Units with Deep Strike are Deployed (Orange section) and follow the rules described by an appropriately named section:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"

I wonder if the reference to that title in Gate of Infinity was intentional?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Spoiler:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)

In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.

You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives).
And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves.
You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.

Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.

I'm not sure why you're getting your Grammar wrong here, it's very simple:

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

Them refers to the subject: "Deep Striking units", just as "the Unit" refers to that same subject.
So subject: "Deep Striking units"
A) roll for their arrival per "reserves"
B) Deploy as follows.

Grey Templar has shown why we can ignore "A": the fact that they are arriving "immediately".

How you somehow insert your own meaning that this must be done "from Reserves" is puzzling? Is there specific wording leading you to think this?

Sure, the unit is "Deep Striking", it needs to roll "as specified in the rules for reserves", but nothing in there suggests it IS coming from reserves. Apart from the Deep Strike rules themselves upon deployment. Does GoI revert to a Deployment phase?

You aren't ignoring the reserve roll, you are following the rules as written to immediately arrive by Deep Strike.

You aren't ignoring the need for all models in the unit to have the Deep Strike USR, you are following the rules as written which tell you to Deep Strike the unit, granting the Deep Strike USR via implied permission.

The unit does not go into Reserves (the place a unit may begin the game in), yet may go into On-Going Reserves (the place a unit is held when not on the table, yet directed to use the Reserves rule to re-enter play) due to a Mishap. The models of the unit do leave the table, which does imply On-Going Reserves, followed by immediately going through the Deep Strike process, which per the BRB is called both "Deep Strike" and "Deep Strike Reserves".

It's easy to see the confusion, because GW has used the word "Reserves" in three different ways to imply the exact same thing, the "Limbo" a unit is in when not on the table yet still legally in play. GW should have used different terms so as to differentiate between these states or places a unit can be held while legally in play yet not physically on the table. The only other time a model or unit is both physically off the table yet still in play is when Embarked in a transport or building. Yes, GW should have provided a term other than "Reserve" to denote when a unit is being moved via Deep Strike; unfortunately, they not only did not, they outright defined "Deep Strike" and "Deep Strike Reserve" to mean the exact same thing. Due to this confusion, many people conflate Deep Strike Reserves with being in actual Reserves, rather than literally being "embarked" on the "Deep Strike" process, which is the implied meaning behind the actual rules as written. I'm not talking about RAI, I'm talking about the rules as actually written. GW is using a word correctly to inform players of a process, players are using the same word as a game term for a specifically defined place/time in the game. GW is being too general, players are being too specific. GW really really needs a competent Editor.

By following the Deep Strike rules, yet with specific permission to modify those rules, Gate of Infinity allows a unit without the Deep Strike USR to:

Leave the table without being removed from play and Immediately return to the table via the process known as Deep Strike.

Thus the Deep Strike USR is conferred without being directly granted and the reserve roll for arrival is bypassed. The unit is implied to be in On-Going Reserves between removal from the table and the immediate return, because a Mishap can prevent the unit from arriving, where one of the possible outcomes is that it will remain in On-Going Reserves, which implies that it was in On-Going Reserves to begin with. This is perhaps the main reason why Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are one in the same. However, at no point in the process is it specifically defined that a unit removed from the table yet return via Deep Strike has gone into Reserves (a deployment option), or On-Going Reserves (a re-deployment option). What we are left with is the implied steps that occur if the rules are followed as written.

As written, a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play, has done so via the Deep Strike process which includes the Mishap game mechanic, and due to using the Deep Strike process has also qualified as having actually arrived via Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves without having been Reserved yet perhaps having gone briefly into On-Going Reserves, which can trigger other benefits such as a Rites of Teleportation if the unit in question is a qualifying unit.

TL;DR, GoI = DS, which can trigger RoT.

SJ

The problem is you are still being selective for part of the rules. Gate of Infinity has no wording to cover "must have the Deep Strike special rule" or "They always begin the game in Reserve" parts of Deep Strike.
Sure, you can make a logical leap and assign them Deep Strike because they are using it, but it is still an assumption with no rules support (GoI doesn't say: "model gains Deep Strike for a turn and...").

The only part i can agree with, due to lack of concise RaW, is this:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The unit is implied to be in On-Going Reserves between removal from the table and the immediate return, because a Mishap can prevent the unit from arriving, where one of the possible outcomes is that it will remain in On-Going Reserves, which implies that it was in On-Going Reserves to begin with.

SJ

Although Skies of Fury has specific wording to "destroy the Unit" in case of a Mishap, GoI does not, implying it is possible for the Unit to enter ongoing Reserves.
This means two things, the first being that this is the first RaW (logical interpretation) i can agree clearly tells you to put the Unit in Ongoing Reserves. The second is that it does indeed force the Unit to enter On-going Reserves, but it could be doing so for the first time.
Concluding that entering Reserves due to Mishap means it was there to begin with is a logical fallacy.

This is the correct interpretation with RaW support for GoI:

Leave the table without being removed from play and Immediately return to the table via the process known as Deep Strike.

Where does this say you are going into Reserves(of any kind)? "the "Limbo" a unit is in when not on the table yet still legally in play" only happens in a handful of other occasions: Deep Striking -type moves (Skyleap, Portal of exile, etc) and Transports.
Are Passengers in ongoing Reserves? i really like that interpretation.

At a closer look at GoI, i would even say the rules say:

Leave the table without being removed from play and Immediately return to the table via the process known as arriving by Deep Strike.

Which means you follow these rules:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"

The fact that the Unit using GoI does not have the Deep Strike Special rule means the entire rule does not have to apply.

Black Talos, please try and actually reading my posts before replying to them. All of your concerns were covered in multiple posts, including the one you are replying to. The continued lack of any apparent reading comprehension on your part makes this thread tiring and non-productive. Continuously asking for me and others to restate points I've and other have already stated numerous times falls under the category of trolling, not debating.

If you continue to not read what you are quoting, I will simply place you on ignore.

SJ

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Spoiler:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)

In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.

You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives).
And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves.
You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.

Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.

I'm not sure why you're getting your Grammar wrong here, it's very simple:

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

Them refers to the subject: "Deep Striking units", just as "the Unit" refers to that same subject.
So subject: "Deep Striking units"
A) roll for their arrival per "reserves"
B) Deploy as follows.

Grey Templar has shown why we can ignore "A": the fact that they are arriving "immediately".

How you somehow insert your own meaning that this must be done "from Reserves" is puzzling? Is there specific wording leading you to think this?

Sure, the unit is "Deep Striking", it needs to roll "as specified in the rules for reserves", but nothing in there suggests it IS coming from reserves. Apart from the Deep Strike rules themselves upon deployment. Does GoI revert to a Deployment phase?

Nothing suggests it? Really?
So you use all the rules for Reserves, but nothing suggests it's actually coming from Reserves. Apart from, you know, the Deep Strike rules.
I've inserted nothing. The actual rules - as you've quoted them - refer to deploying the unit, and applying the rules for arriving from Reserves. You're deliberately ignoring that fact.
My grammar was just fine - the Deep Striking unit must roll to arrive using the rules for Reserves. GoI allows you to skip that roll, but the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand.

either GoI uses all the rules for deep strike which means models using Gate of Infinity must use all the rules for deep strike:

all the models being gated must have deep strike USR.

All the models being gated must have begun the game in reserves.

When the unit was in reserves at the beginning of the game you must have told your opponent that would be arriving by deep strike.

The only rule we can RAI say we get to ignore is the roll to arrive from reserves, because we are told they arrive immediately. Assuming the outcome of the roll cannot matter because if the roll is failed they cannot arrive immediately and we are told they they arrive immediately.

However there is no permission in the rules to ignore the rest of the rules for Deep strike.

the alternative is that Gate of Infinity uses the rules for "arriving by deep strike" ignoring that the unit did not come from reserves, because it was not in reserves and there is no roll to arrive from reserves nor are we told the unit "automatically arrives from reserves, or passes its reserves roll, or does not have to make a reserves roll"

tbh which rules to follow for DS(all, some) are not stated. anyone claiming they are coming from reserveres has best a RAI or HYWPI argument, just as anyone claiming they are not coming from reserves has a RAI/HYWPI argument.

the only thing that is certain is if you are claiming they are coming from reserves, and are using all the rules for deepstrike then they must abide by the above points. Which means any unit that did not begin the game in deep strike reserves, and does not have the deep strike rule on their unit entry, cannot use gate. Which is what anyone who claims Gate uses all the rules for deep strike is stating, and is the least logical of the RAI ways to play it.

blaktoof wrote:
either GoI uses all the rules for deep strike which means models using Gate of Infinity must use all the rules for deep strike:

all the models being gated must have deep strike USR.

All the models being gated must have begun the game in reserves.

When the unit was in reserves at the beginning of the game you must have told your opponent that would be arriving by deep strike.

Incorrect. We have permission to use GoI (given by it not being Denied), meaning we have permission to ignore those three points.

the only thing that is certain is if you are claiming they are coming from reserves, and are using all the rules for deepstrike then they must abide by the above points. Which means any unit that did not begin the game in deep strike reserves, and does not have the deep strike rule on their unit entry, cannot use gate. Which is what anyone who claims Gate uses all the rules for deep strike is stating, and is the least logical of the RAI ways to play it.

Incorrect. DS specifies that all models in the unit must have the rule. GoI allows a model without Deep Strike to use the DS rules. GoI is more specific and therefore "wins".
Entirely logical, and most importantly, rules based argument. Can you come up with one that counters what I've said?

You have permission to use the power, that does not mean the power always has an affect. Stating such is incorrect. There are many psychic powers that can select targets they have no effect on, e.g. enfeeble on any vehicle. Permission to cast, but the rules prevent it from actually having any effect on specific targets.

GOI does not state it allows models without DS to use DS. It states the models must use the rules for DS. Thos are the rules for DS.

therefore you are incorrect, and as pointed out previously are making a RAI argument based on HYWPI.

blaktoof wrote:
You have permission to use the power, that does not mean the power has any affect. Stating such is incorrect. There are many psychic powers that can select targets they have no effect on, e.g. enfeeble on any vehicle. Permission to cast, but the rules prevent it from actually having any effect on specific targets.

GoI doesn't select a target - it targets the Psyker. There's a marked difference, despite your assurance its the same as enfeeble.
GoI has one requirement - that the unit not be Zooming or Swooping.

Your (incorrect) interpretation would mean that a unit would be removed (and in limbo since you assert the unit does not go into Reserves) and never be placed on the board. This has no basis in logic or rules.
I am not making a RAI or HIWPI argument. Please stop asserting that I am - it's rude to put words in my mouth.

making the mistake of assuming permission to use a psychic power means you have permission to resolve a psychic power on any/all targets is not the basis for a rules discussion.

stating things I never said as if they were stated is not the basis for supporting your HYWPI argument.

it is as silly as claiming that because GoI states they arrive immediately that they can ignore mishap results that do not have them arrive- because then they are not arriving immediately, you are in fact have no rules basis or logic for any of your HYWPI arguments in this discussion.

In essence you are stating:



if you look at your points they make absolutely no sense, and in fact conflict with each other, its just a flip flop of the same point in a single discussion which takes away all the credibility from any such point you would try to make.

Units going into OR are taken off the table and do not come back in from reserve until the next turn.

blaktoof wrote:
making the mistake of assuming permission to use a psychic power means you have permission to resolve a psychic power on any/all targets is not the basis for a rules discussion.

Good thing I'm not doing that then, eh?

stating things I never said as if they were stated is not the basis for supporting your HYWPI argument.

What did you never state? Elaborate so I can explain, please.
If you meant when I said, "Your (incorrect) interpretation would mean that a unit would be removed (and in limbo since you assert the unit does not go into Reserves) and never be placed on the board. This has no basis in logic or rules. " then let me elaborate:

You agree that the power can be manifested. You do not agree that the unit goes into Reserves. You do agree that the rules for Deep Strike are used.
Are those three sentences correct? I'd hate to put words in your mouth.

it is as silly as claiming that because GoI states they arrive immediately that they can ignore mishap results that do not have them arrive- because then they are not arriving immediately, you are in fact have no rules basis or logic for any of your HYWPI arguments in this discussion.

That would be a silly claim and easily disproven. I'm not making HIWPI arguments.

In essence you are stating:

Nope, I'm not. Mocking me isn't appreciated.

if you look at your points they make absolutely no sense, and in fact conflict with each other, its just a flip flop of the same point in a single discussion which takes away all the credibility from any such point you would try to make.

If that's the case then surely instead of resorting to mockery and yelling "HYWPI!!!" surely you can come up with a rules based opposition to my points?

I mean - I'm attempting to engage in an honest debate. It doesn't seem like you are.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Black Talos, please try and actually reading my posts before replying to them. All of your concerns were covered in multiple posts, including the one you are replying to. The continued lack of any apparent reading comprehension on your part makes this thread tiring and non-productive. Continuously asking for me and others to restate points I've and other have already stated numerous times falls under the category of trolling, not debating.

If you continue to not read what you are quoting, I will simply place you on ignore.

SJ

I have read your points, and you did not cover my concerns. I am not asking you to re-state points, i am asking you to provide support (preferably RaW) for those points, which you have failed to do.

Your main points, selected:
1) a unit that Gates is in play, is removed from the table while remaining in play, is returned to the table immediately so as not to disrupt play.
2) The unit is implied to be in On-Going Reserves between removal from the table and the immediate return
3) a Mishap can prevent the unit from arriving, where one of the possible outcomes is that it will remain in On-Going Reserves.

1) Is correct. It works just like passengers from a Vehicle
2) Is a made-up assumption on your part, which lack rules support.
3) Is also correct (as i pointed out in my previous post) You have rules support that the Unit enters On-Going Reserves when it mishaps. How does that, in any way, prove 2) ?

You also keep dodging an important question:
If you are following the Deep Strike rules in their entirety, how do you abide by "They always begin the game in Reserve"?
Or even "must have the Deep Strike special rule" ?

you are following the rules as written which tell you to Deep Strike the unit, granting the Deep Strike USR via implied permission.

The above is not a valid answer, in case you think it would be, as A) it does not have rules support, or please point out the specific permission in GoI?
B) the rules specifically tell you the Unit "arrives (..) using the rules for Deep Strike".

Not that the Unit has the Deep Strike USR, nor that it follows ALL the rules for Deep Strike, or not even that it is "Deep Striking".... It simply tells you that the nominated Unit arrives, following a certain method. It references this method, which you can find under:
"Arriving by Deep Strike"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Spoiler:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may (etc).
(Copied from BRB-Digital edition)

In white is what Gate of infinity calls out, and what your Unit must do.

You agreed that you have to roll "as specified in the rules for Reserves" (except GoI immediately arrives).
And then you deploy "them". Who? "Them" must refer to the unit that you rolled to arrive from Reserves.
You place a model from "the unit". Which unit? The one that just arrives from (Deep Strike) Reserves.

Please explain how immediately arriving from Reserves, as you've quoted, means the unit is not arriving from Reserves.

I'm not sure why you're getting your Grammar wrong here, it's very simple:

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

Them refers to the subject: "Deep Striking units", just as "the Unit" refers to that same subject.
So subject: "Deep Striking units"
A) roll for their arrival per "reserves"
B) Deploy as follows.

Grey Templar has shown why we can ignore "A": the fact that they are arriving "immediately".

How you somehow insert your own meaning that this must be done "from Reserves" is puzzling? Is there specific wording leading you to think this?

Sure, the unit is "Deep Striking", it needs to roll "as specified in the rules for reserves", but nothing in there suggests it IS coming from reserves. Apart from the Deep Strike rules themselves upon deployment. Does GoI revert to a Deployment phase?

Nothing suggests it? Really?
So you use all the rules for Reserves, but nothing suggests it's actually coming from Reserves. Apart from, you know, the Deep Strike rules.
I've inserted nothing. The actual rules - as you've quoted them - refer to deploying the unit, and applying the rules for arriving from Reserves. You're deliberately ignoring that fact.
My grammar was just fine - the Deep Striking unit must roll to arrive using the rules for Reserves. GoI allows you to skip that roll, but the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand.

No, you must roll to arrive, because this is specified in the rules for reserves.

Not: You must roll, so that you may arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves.

Two very different phrases. What does arriving "as specified in the rules for Reserves" even entail? "Moving On From Reserve" paragraph? why would DS Units arrive following those rules?
The first sentence above is the only correct one:
You are rolling to arrive (by Deep Strike), in the way "as specified in the rules for Reserves":
Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each...
etc.

Or also, explain to me what you mean by: "the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand."? what are these?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Two very different phrases. What does arriving "as specified in the rules for Reserves" even entail? "Moving On From Reserve" paragraph? why would DS Units arrive following those rules?

DS conflicts with "Moving on from Reserve" and therefore replaces the parts it conflicts with. It doesn't conflict with every Reserve rule.

Or also, explain to me what you mean by: "the rest of the rules for Reserves still stand."? what are these?

Well, for starters, this thread involves one.

If you must roll to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves (which you've agreed applies, but GoI overrides), how can you "arrive" if you were never in Reserves?
How can the rule possibly apply if the unit is never in Reserves? You've agreed/asserted it applies.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
making the mistake of assuming permission to use a psychic power means you have permission to resolve a psychic power on any/all targets is not the basis for a rules discussion.

Good thing I'm not doing that then, eh?

stating things I never said as if they were stated is not the basis for supporting your HYWPI argument.

What did you never state? Elaborate so I can explain, please.
If you meant when I said, "Your (incorrect) interpretation would mean that a unit would be removed (and in limbo since you assert the unit does not go into Reserves) and never be placed on the board. This has no basis in logic or rules. " then let me elaborate:

You agree that the power can be manifested. You do not agree that the unit goes into Reserves. You do agree that the rules for Deep Strike are used.
Are those three sentences correct? I'd hate to put words in your mouth.

it is as silly as claiming that because GoI states they arrive immediately that they can ignore mishap results that do not have them arrive- because then they are not arriving immediately, you are in fact have no rules basis or logic for any of your HYWPI arguments in this discussion.

That would be a silly claim and easily disproven. I'm not making HIWPI arguments.

In essence you are stating:

Nope, I'm not. Mocking me isn't appreciated.

if you look at your points they make absolutely no sense, and in fact conflict with each other, its just a flip flop of the same point in a single discussion which takes away all the credibility from any such point you would try to make.

If that's the case then surely instead of resorting to mockery and yelling "HYWPI!!!" surely you can come up with a rules based opposition to my points?

I mean - I'm attempting to engage in an honest debate. It doesn't seem like you are.

rereading your previous statement and this one you have still failed to actually show any rules support for your statements.

you believe the unit follows all the rules for Deep strike, except that it can ignore the roll for reserves and arrive immediately. You are correct that it states board.

It then immediately arrives anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike.

but you assume arriving immediately means it went into reserves and comes back out what is RAI and HYWPI argument. An equally Valid argument which makes more sense is that it never goes into reserves, and it arrives back onto the table. Given that it does not "arrive from deep strike reserves" which is a rules statement used for things such as the rule in question in this thread, rites of teleporation, but instead simply arrives using the rules for deep strike. Nothing states it uses the rules for reserves. You then go on to state it uses the rules for reserves, in regards to going into reserves, not rolling, and immediately arriving back on the table (despite the rules not actually stating this). You further then go on to state that it uses this because it uses the rules for deep strike, however you claim it does not use the rules for deep strike because the unit does not have to have deep strike nor begin the game in reserves even those are part of the rules for deep strike.

as such your arguement is very flip floppy, without any rules support other than a RAI statement on what immediately could mean- the result of which you wish to take only part of the rules from DS regarding reserves and not the rest, without any rules support for doing either.

by the RAW nothing in GOI states the unit goes into reserves, nor does it state they arrive from deep strike reserves, or arrive from reserves by deep strike. You are injecting rules for reserves in GoI that do not exist based on part of the rules for DS, then ignoring the rest without any actual explanation of why. If questioned on it you simply claim people are putting words in your mouth and not supporting their points with any rules, even while they are supporting their point with rules, and you still have not actually supported or explained with rules how you are applying some of the rules for DS but not the others within the constraints of GoI.

btw here is an example of rules that include DS and reserves...something GoI does not do:

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.

so obviously it is possible for the rules writers to include rules on things arriving by deep strike and counting as coming from reserves, something GoI does not do because you do not have any raw permission to count as coming from reserves.

blaktoof wrote:
but you assume arriving immediately means it went into reserves and comes back out what is RAI and HYWPI argument.

False. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I've supported that argument with actual rules, which makes it a RAW argument.

An equally Valid argument which makes more sense is that it never goes into reserves, and it arrives back onto the table.

One that isn't supported by actual rules, however.

You further then go on to state that it uses this because it uses the rules for deep strike, however you claim it does not use the rules for deep strike because the unit does not have to have deep strike nor begin the game in reserves even those are part of the rules for deep strike.

That's a lie. The unit does use the rules for Deep Strike. GoI, however, conflicts with some of them and, as we know, specific overrides general in the case of a conflict meaning that GoI wins. Please stop presenting this as me contradicting myself.

as such your arguement is very flip floppy, without any rules support other than a RAI statement on what immediately could mean- the result of which you wish to take only part of the rules from DS regarding reserves and not the rest, without any rules support for doing either.

Except, of course, I've supported my statements with rules. You continue to ignore that fact.

by the RAW nothing in GOI states the unit goes into reserves, nor does it state they arrive from deep strike reserves, or arrive from reserves by deep strike. You are injecting rules for reserves in GoI that do not exist based on part of the rules for DS, then ignoring the rest without any actual explanation of why. If questioned on it you simply claim people are putting words in your mouth and not supporting their points with any rules, even while they are supporting their point with rules, and you still have not actually supported or explained with rules how you are applying some of the rules for DS but not the others within the constraints of GoI.

Um. I haven't? Please, enlighten me.

so obviously it is possible for the rules writers to include rules on things arriving by deep strike and counting as coming from reserves, something GoI does not do because you do not have any raw permission to count as coming from reserves.

Please explain how you roll to arrive from Reserves if you are not actually arriving from Reserves.
Both you and BlackTalos have asserted and agreed that that line of the Deep Strike rules is relevant but refuse to explain how that is possible.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
but you assume arriving immediately means it went into reserves and comes back out what is RAI and HYWPI argument.

False. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I've supported that argument with actual rules, which makes it a RAW argument.

So you can show an actual rule that says that when a unit is removed from the table via Gate of Infinity, it is put into Deep Strike Reserves?

Because I don't see any mention of Deep Strike Reserves in the rules for Gate of Infinity.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
but you assume arriving immediately means it went into reserves and comes back out what is RAI and HYWPI argument.

False. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I've supported that argument with actual rules, which makes it a RAW argument.

So you can show an actual rule that says that when a unit is removed from the table via Gate of Infinity, it is put into Deep Strike Reserves?

Because I don't see any mention of Deep Strike Reserves in the rules for Gate of Infinity.

Yes. I have.

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
It's a Deep Striking unit, correct?
It's rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, correct? (This step is skipped because of the conflict generated by GoI - namely that you immediately arrive)
Which means that it's arriving from Reserves, correct? If you disagree, please explain how the unit is described as rolling to arrive as specified in the rules for Reserves, but not actually arriving from Reserves.

A Deep Striking unit that arrives from Reserves is arriving from Deep Strike Reserves. "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

ive asserted that either all the rules for DS are followed for GoI, which makes little sense because then you cannot gate with models that do not have DS and or did not begin the game in reserves if that is the case, but then can maybe claim the unit rolled for reserves but arrives immediately- even though the rules for GoI do not state any of that.

or that since GoI never says the models go into reserve, or count as coming from reserve, that they are never in reserve and them immediately being put on the table has nothing to do with reserves- since the rules as written for GoI never state anything about reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play.

again an explanation of a power that has rules for arriving by DS and counts as coming from reserves for all purposes.

gate states nothing about reserves.

Nothing in gate states you roll for reserves or even follow that step.

so there is a large jump in your reasoning that has a lack of any rules at all supporting it. ie that models are placed in reserves when gating but do not roll and are instead immediately placed on the table. notice all the words you have to add that are not in the rules to put reserves in there?

blaktoof wrote:
ive asserted that either all the rules for DS are followed for GoI, which makes little sense because then you cannot gate with models that do not have DS and or did not begin the game in reserves if that is the case, but then can maybe claim the unit rolled for reserves but arrives immediately- even though the rules for GoI do not state any of that.

Again, and I'll use big letters so maybe you can understand (because I've said this before).
THIS. IS. A. FALSE. STATEMENT.

or that since GoI never says the models go into reserve, or count as coming from reserve, that they are never in reserve and them immediately being put on the table has nothing to do with reserves- since the rules as written for GoI never state anything about reserves.

They are placed using the DS rules, correct?
Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?

Nothing in gate states you roll for reserves or even follow that step.

Please, quote the rules for DS that apply since apparently you are doing so selectively.

so there is a large jump in your reasoning that has a lack of any rules at all supporting it. ie that models are placed in reserves when gating but do not roll and are instead immediately placed on the table. notice all the words you have to add that are not in the rules to put reserves in there?

GoI references the Deep Strike rules. Agreed?
So by referencing them, it must include them. Agreed?

How about you address my actual arguments instead of implying I'm being foolish or making things up?

rigeld2 wrote:
Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?

Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?

Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
1) In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
2) When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
3) Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
4) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...

GoI conflicts with 1 when it mandates that any Psyker manifesting must Deep Strike. Therefore #1 doesn't apply.
#2 is irrelevant - it goes in and immediately arrives back out, per GoI.
GoI conflicts with #3 by being able to cast after the beginning of the game.
GoI conflicts with #4 by stating the unit immediately arrives.

Rules based answers. Any rules based rebuttals? blaktoof and BlackTalos haven't been able to offer any yet.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?

Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
1) In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
2) When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
3) Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
4) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...

GoI conflicts with 1 when it mandates that any Psyker manifesting must Deep Strike. Therefore #1 doesn't apply.
#2 is irrelevant - it goes in and immediately arrives back out, per GoI.
GoI conflicts with #3 by being able to cast after the beginning of the game.
GoI conflicts with #4 by stating the unit immediately arrives.

Rules based answers. Any rules based rebuttals? blaktoof and BlackTalos haven't been able to offer any yet.

You are claiming that the unit goes into Reserves. Or at least that is what it appears to me. I've listed all the mentions of Reserves (with the exception of Deep Strike Mishaps) found in the Deep Strike rules. So, #1 does not apply. #2 does not apply. #3 does not apply. #4 does not apply. #5 (Deep Strike Mishap) may or may not apply. So what does GoI have to do with reserves?

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Do the DS rules mention anything about Reserves? Anything at all?

Yes, they say a number of things about Reserves. Including
1) In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike...the unit must start the game in Reserve.
2) When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent it will be arriving by Deep Strike.
3) Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve...
4) Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...

GoI conflicts with 1 when it mandates that any Psyker manifesting must Deep Strike. Therefore #1 doesn't apply.
#2 is irrelevant - it goes in and immediately arrives back out, per GoI.
GoI conflicts with #3 by being able to cast after the beginning of the game.
GoI conflicts with #4 by stating the unit immediately arrives.

Rules based answers. Any rules based rebuttals? blaktoof and BlackTalos haven't been able to offer any yet.

You are claiming that the unit goes into Reserves. Or at least that is what it appears to me. I've listed all the mentions of Reserves (with the exception of Deep Strike Mishaps) found in the Deep Strike rules. So, #1 does not apply. #2 does not apply. #3 does not apply. #4 does not apply. #5 (Deep Strike Mishap) may or may not apply. So what does GoI have to do with reserves?

#2 does apply because it doesn't conflict. #3 applies, but isn't a limitation because GoI mandates things after the start of the game.

Do you really want me to answer or are you just going to be contrary?

rigeld2 wrote:
Do you really want me to answer or are you just going to be contrary?

Apparently I'm going to be contrary .

As far as I know, in order to be able to place a unit in reserve you need permission.

When deploying, unless the mission does not use the Reserves special rule, you have permission to place units in Reserve.

During the game you occasionally have permission to place units in Ongoing Reserves (such as Leaving Combat Airspace, or Deep Strike Mishap).

Every time after starting the first turn, a unit goes into reserves you are specifically told to place the unit there.

Gate of Infinity does not refer to Reserves at all.

actually none of the things conflict that you state do, because GoI does not state anything about them that would conflict.

the rules for DS require you to have deep strike, be placed in reserves, then tell your opponent "hey, these guys over here are in reserves and are DSing in"

then you roll for reserves and deploy them as follows:

the reason GoI does not use reserves, other than the fact that the rules for it never give you permission to count as being in reserves, or to have arrived from deep strike reserves, is because the unit was never in reserves- that part of DS is completely ignored and you immediately placed the unit using the rules for deep strike i.e. place model from unit roll scatter look at mishap table...

You are not told nor given permission for the unit to enter reserves, then immediately leave reserves by autopassing a roll or ignoring a roll[none of that is stated, and you are making a RAI argument that the unit goes into reserves without ever being told it does]

Further claiming it does, brings up all the other rules before it as in - the unit has to have deep strike, the unit has to have been reserves etc...none of which you have resolved by blanket claiming "it conflicts[no actual reason why given] so ignored"