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Dark Angel propaganda.

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

Uhuh. Keep telling yourself that.

Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

 Vespid wrote:
Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

Or its Zahriel or its the Knight of Lupus.

 Vespid wrote:
Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

No, the Lion is sleeping within the Rock. Luther is still in his cell.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson#The_Fate_of_Jonson

Zahariel might be Cypher. Would make the most sense and would actually make a decent story.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dark Angel propaganda.

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The half of the legion left at Caliban was corrupted by Nurgle through the ambition of Luthor if memory serves.

BTW favorite Primarch is Lemann Russ or Rogal Dorn.

Nope..

Fateweaver corrupted them (Tzeench)

Not nurgle. Nurgle's not that cunning.

Yep. Thank you, I forgot which one corrupted them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vespid wrote:
I voted for the lion,
but maybe the lion was the one corrupted by chaos and Luther was completely loyal to the emperor, and the fallen are the good guys, as well as the now loyal dark angels.

Yeah, nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Vespid wrote:
Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

No, the Lion is sleeping within the Rock. Luther is still in his cell.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson#The_Fate_of_Jonson

Zahariel might be Cypher. Would make the most sense and would actually make a decent story.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dark Angel propaganda.

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

This. Exalted for lore truth.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The battle of calth was over by that point. But the nightlords were distracting the majority of the dark angels and the Lion wanted the night lords dead.

The Ultramarines had no such excuse.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

Nope, Ultramarines don't get a pass. If they didn't get ambushed at Calth, how else could they be Mary Sue?

lion el johnsonville sausages
Lemon rush
horse
sanguinius- actual space jesus
vulkan- space wolverine
Rick and Morty
fulgrim- Just wanted to be pretty
alpharious "Because it would've been too easy"...
girlyman
Magnus- best lore out there, cool story about pride, hubris, father/son relationships, power, fate, even a love interest in one of the books, everything ever considered important in the human existence.
angry ron
konrad kurze client
contacts
angry dorn
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
fear us
lorgar- not actual space jesus
portobello mushrooms

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

Nope, Ultramarines don't get a pass. If they didn't get ambushed at Calth, how else could they be Mary Sue?

They're a lot more Mary Sue after the Heresy. Before the Heresy they were just a very well organised, efficient army led by a very very clever, but very stubborn Primarch.

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The battle of calth was over by that point. But the nightlords were distracting the majority of the dark angels and the Lion wanted the night lords dead.

The Ultramarines had no such excuse.

Hadn't the Thramas Crusade ended at a similar time to the battle of Calth as the Dark Angels bring Curze and some Night Lords to Macragge?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The battle of calth was over by that point. But the nightlords were distracting the majority of the dark angels and the Lion wanted the night lords dead.

The Ultramarines had no such excuse.

Hadn't it ended at a similar time to the battle of Calth as the Dark Angels bring Curze and some Night Lords to Macragge?

Good point actually, the Lion was at Imperium Secundus so he must've been mostly done with the Night Lords (apart from Curze who was on his ship).

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Evidence, or would you rather just provide conjecture? Lion was actually pretty distraught that he didn't make it in time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

Nope, Ultramarines don't get a pass. If they didn't get ambushed at Calth, how else could they be Mary Sue?

They're a lot more Mary Sue after the Heresy. Before the Heresy they were just a very well organised, efficient army led by a very very clever, but very stubborn Primarch.

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Exactly. Take that away from them, and what other fluff is there to write about them? They have to be the underdogs.

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Proof?

 Asherian Command wrote:

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Proof?

Where was it then? It was either on Calth - Horus called for them to muster at Calth, in KNF it mentions that they have vastly too many marines for the mission they believed it was, and Guillaman says that Horus is flexing his new Warmaster muscle, and trying to build bridges between the WB and UM, hence why so many UM were there. The rest were through the rest of the worlds hit by the Shadow Crusade.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Evidence, or would you rather just provide conjecture?

Read Unremembered Empire.
The novel explains why the Ultramarines can’t leave their system and why the Lion goes out of his way to confront Guilliman, when he just as well could be doing other things.

You’re the only one making conjectures here friend. I guess that’s what blind hate does to ya.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Lion was actually pretty distraught that he didn't make it in time.

The Lion was not alone in showing up late and feeling distraught over it.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Proof?

Where was it then? It was either on Calth - Horus called for them to muster at Calth, in KNF it mentions that they have vastly too many marines for the mission they believed it was, and Guillaman says that Horus is flexing his new Warmaster muscle, and trying to build bridges between the WB and UM, hence why so many UM were there. The rest were through the rest of the worlds hit by the Shadow Crusade.

The majority of the ultramarines were at ultramar. They were still mustering, they weren't all there at once. The ultramarines were mostly in space when the assualt came and they barely lost that many astartes in the battle because most of them were not there.

The Ultramarine fleet was still at ultramar according to the collect visions. the majority of the legion was holding multiple areas currently at that time period. The ultramarine fleet was massive and one that the wordbearers did not want to face the entire ultramarine fleet. The Fleet was only half of the Ultramarines fleet.

Read Unremembered Empire.
The novel explains why the Ultramarines can’t leave their system and why the Lion goes out of his way to confront Guilliman, when he just as well could be doing other things.

You’re the only one making conjectures here friend. I guess that’s what blind hate does to ya.

I did. Guess what it said. Gulliman had a special thing that allowed him to allow ships to warp there. If he had pointed it towards terra, The Dark Angels and many of the imperial fleets would of made it to terra, if it were not for the ultramarines using maccrage as a fleet beacon. If he had pointed it towards terra, the horus heresy would of been a sheer fire imperial victory.

The ultramarines instead decided to have it not point towards terra.

Remember they had a special beacon similar to the astronomicion.

The Lion was not alone in showing up late and feeling distraught over it.

The Space wolves did as well but... They felt quite sad that they were unable to get there. The majority of the dark angels were still fighting the Night Lords, and the Space Wolves were distracted by the Alpha Legion. The Ultramarines were not engaged in any conflict.

 Redcruisair wrote:
That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The only thing I said about the Ultramarines was that I didn't like how much space they take up in the SM codex and how you could fit lore for all the founding chapters if they weren't the poster boys. No need to get so worked up.

 jreilly89 wrote:
This. Exalted for lore truth.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Read Unremembered Empire.
The novel explains why the Ultramarines can’t leave their system and why the Lion goes out of his way to confront Guilliman, when he just as well could be doing other things.

I can't comment on Unremembered Empire because I didn't read it but people tend to forget the Heresy went on for seven years. That's plenty of time for all of them to get back to Terra but that would have meant leaving the rest of the Imperium undefended, which is why they got bogged down doing various things. The reason why the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves didn't make it to Terra in time is because Horus planned for them to be delayed. Simply put, he played them.

Also, from what I know about Unremembered Empire, the Astronomican goes out and Gulliman assumes Terra has fallen, which is why tries to create a second empire to hold humanity together, correct? This is a time of great confusion so I'm guessing the Lion went to Ultramar because he was suspicious about Gulliman's motives, thinking it might be a blatant power grab to take advantage of the fall of Terra, which is why they crown Sanguinius the new Emperor as a compromise, correct? Sounds straightforward enough. Both were trying to do what they thought was best for humanity while still staying loyal to the Emperor. They were played by Horus and let their mutual suspicions get the better of them, simple as that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

They had roughly 200,000 Ultramarines stationed on Calth... and over half them died to the Word Bearer's ambush.

can't comment on Unremembered Empire because I didn't read it but people tend to forget the Heresy went on for seven years. That's plenty of time for all of them to get back to Terra but that would have meant leaving the rest of the Imperium undefended, which is why they got bogged down doing various things. The reason why the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves didn't make it to Terra in time is because Horus planned for them to be delayed. Simply put, he played them.

Also, from what I know about Unremembered Empire, the Astronomican goes out and Gulliman assumes Terra has fallen, which is why tries to create a second empire to hold humanity together, correct? This is a time of great confusion so I'm guessing the Lion went to Ultramar because he was suspicious about Gulliman's motives, thinking it might be a blatant power grab to take advantage of the fall of Terra, which is why they crown Sanguinius the new Emperor as a compromise, correct? Sounds straightforward enough. Both were trying to do what they thought was best for humanity while still staying loyal to the Emperor. They were played by Horus and let their mutual suspicions get the better of them, simple as that.

I agree with that, I mean I just hate the ultramarines post-heresy. And I always found that Gulliman always had a motive and always planned ahead.

They had roughly 200,000 Ultramarines stationed on Calth... and over half them died to the Word Bearer's ambush.

I had to check that and apparently the black library expanded on it, and forgot about the second founding :/

Yup, that still leaves, 50,000 other Ultramarines.

Guess what you could of done.... You could of sent half your legion to terra with the blood angels. Well what do you know.

There is also conflicts with the canon as the canon says the ultramarines didn't lose that much. I mean they were attacked at calth. But it says in certain parts they didn'.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I did. Guess what it said. Gulliman had a special thing that allowed him to allow ships to warp there. If he had pointed it towards terra, The Dark Angels and many of the imperial fleets would of made it to terra, if it were not for the ultramarines using maccrage as a fleet beacon. If he had pointed it towards terra, the horus heresy would of been a sheer fire imperial victory.

The ultramarines instead decided to have it not point towards terra.

Remember they had a special beacon similar to the astronomicion.

So he should guide the scattered fleets towards Terra so that Horus superior fleet could intercept and eradicate them piece by piece? What an ingenious idea!

Guilliman did the right thing under the right circumstances. Consolidate your forces and then wait for reliable information to come your way. Once you have a clear picture of the situation you act.

 Asherian Command wrote:

can't comment on Unremembered Empire because I didn't read it but people tend to forget the Heresy went on for seven years. That's plenty of time for all of them to get back to Terra but that would have meant leaving the rest of the Imperium undefended, which is why they got bogged down doing various things. The reason why the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves didn't make it to Terra in time is because Horus planned for them to be delayed. Simply put, he played them.

Also, from what I know about Unremembered Empire, the Astronomican goes out and Gulliman assumes Terra has fallen, which is why tries to create a second empire to hold humanity together, correct? This is a time of great confusion so I'm guessing the Lion went to Ultramar because he was suspicious about Gulliman's motives, thinking it might be a blatant power grab to take advantage of the fall of Terra, which is why they crown Sanguinius the new Emperor as a compromise, correct? Sounds straightforward enough. Both were trying to do what they thought was best for humanity while still staying loyal to the Emperor. They were played by Horus and let their mutual suspicions get the better of them, simple as that.

I agree with that, I mean I just hate the ultramarines post-heresy. And I always found that Gulliman always had a motive and always planned ahead.

Yea, I'm not really a Ultramarines fan either but I think how the Primarchs are portrayed really just depends on the author. There's no real consistency. For example, the Lion uncharacteristically flips out and smacks an important character's head off for no good reason, kinda ruining a story that was building up for a while. But then if the Primarchs were all black and white then they'd be one dimensional and boring. So while both primarchs were doing what they thought was best for humanity, they probably also had some ulterior motives. The head smacking thing is still stupid though. Can't get over it and I didn't even read that story...

 Redcruisair wrote:
So he should guide the scattered fleets towards Terra so that Horus superior fleet could intercept and eradicate them piece by piece? What an ingenious idea!

Guilliman did the right thing under the right circumstances. Consolidate your forces and then wait for reliable information to come your way. Once you have a clear picture of the situation you act.

The right thing to do would probably have been to team up with the Dark Angels and whoever else was there at the time and set course for Terra. But yea, there was a great deal of confusion and nobody was sure what to do.

So he should guide the scattered fleets towards Terra so that Horus superior fleet could intercept and eradicate them piece by piece? What an ingenious idea!

Guilliman did the right thing under the right circumstances. Consolidate your forces and then wait for reliable information to come your way. Once you have a clear picture of the situation you act.

Umm The blood angels got there and deployed on the surface. With both the ultramarines and the blood angel, imperial fists fleets all together. They would of beat them.

They were not as superior as you would think.

The Ultramarines would of aided on the battle below and they would of been able to defeat the other foes quite easily.

The right thing to do would probably have been to team up with the Dark Angels and whoever else was there at the time and set course for Terra. But yea, there was a great deal of confusion and nobody was sure what to do.

Basically.

Its one of the reasons that I often dislike the fanboyism for the Ultramarines.

But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

Huh? Yea, they both let their mutual suspicious get the better of them. Did you read my previous post? Neither of them got there in time so they're equally at fault. At the same time they both stayed loyal.

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

The lion was engaged by the Night Lords, They also lacked half the legion and had sustained losses. The Ultramarines were still half a legion strong. The Dark Angels did not have that luxury.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

Huh? Yea, they both let their mutual suspicious get the better of them. Did you read my previous post? Neither of them got there in time so they're equally at fault. At the same time they both stayed loyal.

Agreed again.

EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

Huh? Yea, they both let their mutual suspicious get the better of them. Did you read my previous post? Neither of them got there in time so they're equally at fault. At the same time they both stayed loyal.

Yeah that was aimed at Asherian Command who said that's the reason he hates UM fanboyism. My point being, Both the Lion and Guillaman made the same mistake so it's a bit hypocritical to hate one and not the other.

Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

The lion was engaged by the Night Lords, They also lacked half the legion and had sustained losses. The Ultramarines were still half a legion strong. The Dark Angels did not have that luxury.

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Umm The blood angels got there and deployed on the surface. With both the ultramarines and the blood angel, imperial fists fleets all together. They would of beat them.

They were not as superior as you would think.

I’m not overestimating anything. These are the guys that tore the Solar Battlefleet apart while the latter had support from the Phalanx, BA and WC’s respective fleets and the fortress on the moon.

All of that was just a cakewalk to Horus.