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 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

The Ultramarines lost over 100,000 space marines at Calth (loses from the underground war not included.)

The rest of the Ultramarine legion were mauled by Angron and Lorgar’s shadow crusade.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

You also have to factor that half the chapter was also still away from the main Dark Angels legion, and the fact they had just come back from a crusade in the Eastern Fringe.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

Now you are just making stuff up. I did not say that. They were at normal legion strength.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

You also have to factor that half the chapter was also still away from the main Dark Angels legion, and the fact they had just come back from a crusade in the Eastern Fringe.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

Now you are just making stuff up. I did not say that. They were at normal legion strength.

And you have to factor in that almost half Guillimans legion was crushed in a brutal, bitter surprise attack from his brother, and then had his 500 worlds he'd spent his life building systematically burned by two traitor legions...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

You also have to factor that half the chapter was also still away from the main Dark Angels legion, and the fact they had just come back from a crusade in the Eastern Fringe.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

Now you are just making stuff up. I did not say that. They were at normal legion strength.

And you have to factor in that almost half Guillimans legion was crushed in a brutal, bitter surprise attack from his brother, and then had his 500 worlds he'd spent his life building systematically burned by two traitor legions...

? What now you are just getting into sematics. The legion was ready to fight the biggest fault is they never made it to terra.

And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

 ImAGeek wrote:
And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

True. But It doesn't mean that the Dark Angels would of been more help. Horus Feared the Ultramarines and their fleets.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

True. But It doesn't mean that the Dark Angels would of been more help. Horus Feared the Ultramarines and their fleets.

Horus feared everyone, that's why he had everyone tied up instead of on Terra. The Warpstorms around Macragge were his (well Lorgars) doing, hence why Guillaman had no idea what was going on. That's why the Night Lords were fighting the DA, to keep them from Terra. But the Lion got as far as Imperium Secundus, at which point he was equally poised as Guillaman to get to Terra.

My point isn't that it's all the Lions fault, or Guillaman didn't make any mistakes. It's just that, to hate Guilliman for not getting to Terra, but have nothing but praise for the Lion who was equally able/unable to, is a tad hypocritical mistakes were made on both parts.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

True. But It doesn't mean that the Dark Angels would of been more help. Horus Feared the Ultramarines and their fleets.

Horus feared everyone, that's why he had everyone tied up instead of on Terra. The Warpstorms around Macragge were his (well Lorgars) doing, hence why Guillaman had no idea what was going on. That's why the Night Lords were fighting the DA, to keep them from Terra. But the Lion got as far as Imperium Secundus, at which point he was equally poised as Guillaman to get to Terra.

My point isn't that it's all the Lions fault, or Guillaman didn't make any mistakes. It's just that, to hate Guilliman for not getting to Terra, but have nothing but praise for the Lion who was equally able/unable to, is a tad hypocritical mistakes were made on both parts.

No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

Haha, I don't think that was Guillimans fault...

Like me though, I hate the Lion for other reasons, primarily I just find him boring.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Haha, I don't think that was Guillimans fault...

Like me though, I hate the Lion for other reasons, primarily I just find him boring.

How. I mean the guy hunted Night Haunter by himself. The guy doesn't want his soldiers to die meaningless deaths. He felt like it was his responsibilty for letting that monster live for so long.

No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

OK, now, a few points to make here:
1.) The Lion wanted to be Warmaster and had even started gathering the support of other Legions during the Horus Heresy (see: Fallen Angels) he even gave one of the Traitor Legions the most powerful Super heavy Tanks ever created - each one had the power of an Imperator Titan, and the Lion gave Perurabo SIX of them in exchange for Perturabo supporting him in becoming Warmaster (this was before Istvaan)
2.) Girlyman may or may not have been making a bid for power, but the fact of the matter is that he and the Lion had a combined strength of AT LEAST 175,000 battle-ready Astartes - enough to utterly destroy the Traitors when combined with the BA forces that they sent to Terra.
3.) Both the DA and the UM had concluded their respective conflicts and were gathered at Imperium Secundus. And though the DA did not have the whole of their forces gathered at Ultramar, they still had a sizable force that could have turned the tide at the Battle of Terra.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

The Ironwarriors were Jerks in General.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

The Ironwarriors were Jerks in General.

Eh. They did the dirty work no other legion would do. I have a lot of respect for the IW and even Perturabo, I really like his character.

There must be one legion/Primarch we agree on...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

The Ironwarriors were Jerks in General.

Eh. They did the dirty work no other legion would do. I have a lot of respect for the IW and even Perturabo, I really like his character.

There must be one legion/Primarch we agree on...

Well I dislike many of the Legions for being dumbasses. And Think Magnus was an idiot, I thought that the Thousand sons got boned and that Magnus should of been arrested and his sons spared.

Magnus was an idiot, I don't like Magnus. The Thousand Sons are okay I've just never been a fan of magic, in games where you pick classes I always stay away from mages and stuff. Not sure why. I don't use psykers in 40k either. So they are cool but I don't like them as much as I could because of that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

Guilliman was the least liked among the primarchs.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

He didn't waste time with stupid games and was overall better than most of them

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

Guilliman was the least liked among the primarchs.

That is not at all why Alpharius turned traitor though.

I'm almost certain other Primarchs were more disliked. Lorgar springs to mind. Curze. Even Alpharius didn't get on with the others.

That is not at all why Alpharius turned traitor though.

I'm almost certain other Primarchs were more disliked. Lorgar springs to mind. Curze. Even Alpharius didn't get on with the others.

Its one of the major reasons why. Alpharius hated Guilliman.

Plus Alpharius had it rough because he was the last primarch to be found.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

That tells me more about Aplharius issues than Guilliman’s. Alpharius is basically whiny spoiled kid that ran to daddy Horus when the big nasty bully was mean to him, Boo Hoo.

If you honestly believe that having your tactics Rightly criticized is grave enough of an offence to commit treason and genocide on a galactic scale, then I don’t know what to tell you.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Guilliman was the least liked among the primarchs.

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

KingDeath wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

He didn't waste time with stupid games and was overall better than most of them

Well, that’s true. He was indeed better than most of them.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

I thought Perturabo and Angron were relatively close at least when compared to the relationship that Angron had with his other brothers

 Asherian Command wrote:

That is not at all why Alpharius turned traitor though.

I'm almost certain other Primarchs were more disliked. Lorgar springs to mind. Curze. Even Alpharius didn't get on with the others.

Its one of the major reasons why. Alpharius hated Guilliman.

Plus Alpharius had it rough because he was the last primarch to be found.

Have you read Legion? Because that's not at all why Alpharius turned traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 King Pariah wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

I thought Perturabo and Angron were relatively close at least when compared to the relationship that Angron had with his other brothers

I've not read anything about them being close, or even them mentioned together. Could be right, where did you read that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

That tells me more about Aplharius issues than Guilliman’s. Alpharius is basically whiny spoiled kid that ran to daddy Horus when the big nasty bully was mean to him, Boo Hoo.

If you honestly believe that having your tactics Rightly criticized is grave enough of an offence to commit treason and genocide on a galactic scale, then I don’t know what to tell you.

To be fair... I don't think Guillamans criticisms of Alpharius were right. Alpharius got results, he definitely got the job done, just non traditionally. Guilliman was just being stubborn and basically 'my way is right, your way is wrong'.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

Of those three only Magnus was a friend to him. Horus was nice to him for political reasons and Sanguinuis was always respectful to the other primarchs.

Guilliman was great friends and allies with Sanguinius, Manus, Dorn and hell even Russ for crying out loud. The news of the death of Manus hurt him especially so.

Guilliman was not disliked by his brothers. Sure some where distrustful of his motives yes, but nobody loathed the guy to the same degree they did with Lorgar and the other misfit primarchs.
In fact Alpharius was disliked more by his brethren than Guilliman was.

 Asherian Command wrote:
No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

I concur fully with that statement.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair... I don't think Guillamans criticisms of Alpharius were right. Alpharius got results, he definitely got the job done, just non traditionally. Guilliman was just being stubborn and basically 'my way is right, your way is wrong'.

In a sense the critics were right. Alpharuis was often criticized for working at snail’s pace. His tactics worked and often saved manpower, but ask yourself this: did the legions really need to conserve their manpower?
The World Eaters and Iron Warriors went balls to the walls and still got the job. Why waste time on fancy and time consuming tactics when you could just use the conventional war methods, take the losses and then move on?