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The guy always was a petty fellow. A single comment from Dorn about his and Perturabo’s legions was enough to send the latter into blind rage.

 Redcruisair wrote:
The guy always was a petty fellow. A single comment from Dorn about his and Perturabo’s legions was enough to send the latter into blind rage.

No it's not like that. Decades of doing jobs no one else would do, and getting absolutely no glory for doing it made him understandably bitter, and Dorns comment was the straw that broke the camels back.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No it's not like that. Decades of doing jobs no one else would do, and getting absolutely no glory for doing it made him understandably bitter

I never understood this. The IW legion was renowned for their skills to the point where even Guilliman felt honored to have his men fight alongside the Iron Warriors. Clearly they were respected, so why didn’t they get any honor?

It must be an oversight.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Dorns comment was the straw that broke the camels back.

The guy must suffer from some awfully thin skin then. Dorn did nothing but answering a question about whether he thought his legion could withstand a siege by Perp’s men. It was an opinion Perturabo could easily have ignored.

There was a Rememberancer who painted a picture of a siege that the IW and IF were both involved in. Pretty sure the IW did the majority of the work, the IF arrived later and mopped up kinda thing. The picture had loads of dead IW in the mud, and some IF raising a banner.

The Iron Warriors did every single thankless, menial task they were asked. They garrisoned worlds, lost many legionnaires in countless sieges, did things no other legion would even consider, and they got no thanks, no glory, nothing. And then their brother legion who they had a huge rivalry for decades got asked to fortify the Palace, even though the IW were obviously extremely adept at fortifying and garrisoning worlds.

Dorn could have been a lot more tactful. I think you're oversimplifying what happened a lot. Yes he could've ignored it, but seriously, decades of putting in backbreaking labour without so much as a thanks, and a comment like that which would make you feel worthless. I'd be exactly the same in Pertys place.

And to top it off, Perturabo had a real passion for designing, building etc, but he spent his entire career forced to destroy. He'd have absolutely fortified the Palace fantastically. It would have been nigh impenetrable, he really had the know how, but he never got chance to prove it. One of the Emperors biggest mistakes imo was not asking him to fortify Terra. He should have got them both to, and maybe they would've built some bridges. It was just another reason for Perturabo to think all his labour was completely unappreciated.

Seriously, I can totally see why he was so bitter. He's not just 'petty', he's been ground into the mud for decades without a word of thanks.

 dusara217 wrote:
Sanguinius, who was the purest, uncorruptable of the Primarchs. IMHO, the Blood Angels and their successors should be uncorruptable as well. Actually, I've never heard of Traitor BA or Successors, could somebody provide examples or are the BA uncorruptable?
Sanguinius was also the wisest of the Primarchs and (arguably) the best in CQC.

flesh tearers have one renegade battle brother who went renegade in order to remove the flaw(and failed, that's whatcha get for consorting with chaos )
my favourite primarch is Ferrus Manus tho.
HAIL THE GORGON! HAIL THE IRON TENTH!

 ImAGeek wrote:
There was a Rememberancer who painted a picture of a siege that the IW and IF were both involved in. Pretty sure the IW did the majority of the work, the IF arrived later and mopped up kinda thing. The picture had loads of dead IW in the mud, and some IF raising a banner.

The Iron Warriors did every single thankless, menial task they were asked. They garrisoned worlds, lost many legionnaires in countless sieges, did things no other legion would even consider, and they got no thanks, no glory, nothing. And then their brother legion who they had a huge rivalry for decades got asked to fortify the Palace, even though the IW were obviously extremely adept at fortifying and garrisoning worlds.

Dorn could have been a lot more tactful. I think you're oversimplifying what happened a lot. Yes he could've ignored it, but seriously, decades of putting in backbreaking labour without so much as a thanks, and a comment like that which would make you feel worthless. I'd be exactly the same in Pertys place.

And to top it off, Perturabo had a real passion for designing, building etc, but he spent his entire career forced to destroy. He'd have absolutely fortified the Palace fantastically. It would have been nigh impenetrable, he really had the know how, but he never got chance to prove it. One of the Emperors biggest mistakes imo was not asking him to fortify Terra. He should have got them both to, and maybe they would've built some bridges. It was just another reason for Perturabo to think all his labour was completely unappreciated.

Seriously, I can totally see why he was so bitter. He's not just 'petty', he's been ground into the mud for decades without a word of thanks.

Exactly this.

The Iron Warriors did all the thankless tasks, only to see the glory achieved in victory claimed from them by some others.
Perturabo himself had a love for designing and creating new things (remember the clockwork miniatures in AE?), but never really got the chance to do so. He had to destroy the things he had a passion for, instead. And he did that, because it was asked from him. He did everything demanded of him, but never really got any recognition for it in return.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
There was a Rememberancer who painted a picture of a siege that the IW and IF were both involved in. Pretty sure the IW did the majority of the work, the IF arrived later and mopped up kinda thing. The picture had loads of dead IW in the mud, and some IF raising a banner.

The Iron Warriors did every single thankless, menial task they were asked. They garrisoned worlds, lost many legionnaires in countless sieges, did things no other legion would even consider, and they got no thanks, no glory, nothing. And then their brother legion who they had a huge rivalry for decades got asked to fortify the Palace, even though the IW were obviously extremely adept at fortifying and garrisoning worlds.

Dorn could have been a lot more tactful. I think you're oversimplifying what happened a lot. Yes he could've ignored it, but seriously, decades of putting in backbreaking labour without so much as a thanks, and a comment like that which would make you feel worthless. I'd be exactly the same in Pertys place.

And to top it off, Perturabo had a real passion for designing, building etc, but he spent his entire career forced to destroy. He'd have absolutely fortified the Palace fantastically. It would have been nigh impenetrable, he really had the know how, but he never got chance to prove it. One of the Emperors biggest mistakes imo was not asking him to fortify Terra. He should have got them both to, and maybe they would've built some bridges. It was just another reason for Perturabo to think all his labour was completely unappreciated.

Seriously, I can totally see why he was so bitter. He's not just 'petty', he's been ground into the mud for decades without a word of thanks.

Exactly this.

The Iron Warriors did all the thankless tasks, only to see the glory achieved in victory claimed from them by some others.
Perturabo himself had a love for designing and creating new things (remember the clockwork miniatures in AE?), but never really got the chance to do so. He had to destroy the things he had a passion for, instead. And he did that, because it was asked from him. He did everything demanded of him, but never really got any recognition for it in return.

Not all the thankless tasks, the Space Wolves would argue that point if they can be believed.

And regardless of what Perturabo enjoyed doing, he was created with one thing in mind, to wage war and destroy. He willingly accepted command of the Iron Warriors and all that this decision entailed. But you can definitely see how it must have rankled the Primarch as well as his Sons, to always be the ones to not receive the glory and be the go to mud sloggers.

I would assume that the reason why Dorn was asked to fortify the palace was be because he was already there, and at time of uncertainty, could be relied upon. Imagine what could have happened if Perturabo, already sworn to Horus, was called back to Terra and accepted.

If the Heresy hadn't have broken out Terra wouldn't have needed to have been fortified as it was and the Fists would have been little more than the Imperial Palace Guard. To some, this would be the worst kind of fate. I think the conversation between the Fists and Luna Wolves in Horus Rising reflects this, whilst the Wolves are still out crusading and winning glory the Fists will be nursemaids.

If Perturabo had been asked to fortify Terra (which began before the Heresy), he wouldn't have joined Horus.
Perturabo was, in essence, more fit to be an architect and diplomat in a democratic state, rather than a Warlord in a fascist Imperium.

Perturabo wasn't sworn to Horus when the palace was fortified. The palace was actually started to be fortified before the heresy broke out I think.

And yes, he was created to wage war, yet he watched his brothers (particularly Dorn) get to do what they enjoyed. For example, Dorn being asked to fortify terra. Perturabo would've loved to do that. He never would have turned if he was asked to do it. None of his brothers even knew he liked to build and create, because none of them made any kind of effort with him.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
If Perturabo had been asked to fortify Terra (which began before the Heresy), he wouldn't have joined Horus.
Perturabo was, in essence, more fit to be an architect and diplomat in a democratic state, rather than a Warlord in a fascist Imperium.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Perturabo wasn't sworn to Horus when the palace was fortified. The palace was actually started to be fortified before the heresy broke out I think.
And yes, he was created to wage war, yet he watched his brothers (particularly Dorn) get to do what they enjoyed. For example, Dorn being asked to fortify terra. Perturabo would've loved to do that. He never would have turned if he was asked to do it.

The Lightning Tower seems to suggest that Dorn was requested to return home because of the Heresy

P7 - The Imperium was attacking itself. The Warmaster, for reasons Dorn was quite at a loss to fathom, had turned upon their father, and was committing his forces to all-out war. That war would come to Terra. There was no question. It would come. Terra needed to be ready. The palace needed to be ready. His father had asked him, as a personal boon, to return to Terra and fortify it for war.

I will need to have a look back at Horus Rising to see how the conversation goes. From what I recall, Dorn is requested to return back to Terra to be it's praetorian, then he gets stuck in the Warp in Flight of the Eisenstein, then he returns back to Terra to fortify it taking Garro and the Death Guard with him. By this time Perturabo has burnt Olympia and sided with Horus.

And more what I was getting at if this is not the case is that Terra wouldn't have needed to be fortified so much if the Heresy hadn't had erupted. Dorn begrudged having to change the palace in such away.

 ImAGeek wrote:
None of his brothers even knew he liked to build and create, because none of them made any kind of effort with him.

Perturabo isn't blameless in this, if the relationship between him and Dorn is anything to go by. But certainly, his brothers seem to have kept him at arms length due to how smart he was.

Nope. Just checked, in Horus Rising, when Loken and Torgaddon are talking to Sigismund, Torgaddon says about how the Imperial Fists are being withdrawn to fortify the Imperial Palace. That's before the SoH are even named the Sons of Horus, they're still the Luna Wolves. The Heresy hasn't started then.

'What brother Sigismund isn't telling you, Garviel.’ Torgaddon said, 'is that his Legion is going to miss all the glory. It's to be withdrawn. He's quite miffed about
it.’
Tarik is being selective with the truth.’ Sigismund snorted. 'The Imperial Fists have been commanded by the Emperor to return to Terra and establish a guard around him there. We are chosen as his Praetorians. Now who's miffed, Luna Wolf?'

 ImAGeek wrote:
Nope. Just checked, in Horus Rising, when Loken and Torgaddon are talking to Sigismund, Torgaddon says about how the Imperial Fists are being withdrawn to fortify the Imperial Palace. That's before the SoH are even named the Sons of Horus, they're still the Luna Wolves. The Heresy hasn't started then.

But they don't get back until the Heresy has actually started as they get stuck in the warp in Flight of the Eisenstein, or are already stuck in the warp. It's the destruction of the Eisentstiens warp drives that attracts the Fists fleet to it.

'What brother Sigismund isn't telling you, Garviel.’ Torgaddon said, 'is that his Legion is going to miss all the glory. It's to be withdrawn. He's quite miffed about
it.’
Tarik is being selective with the truth.’ Sigismund snorted. 'The Imperial Fists have been commanded by the Emperor to return to Terra and establish a guard around him there. We are chosen as his Praetorians. Now who's miffed, Luna Wolf?'

Yeah, but they could've asked Perturabo, because he wasn't traitor at the time Dorn was asked, which is what your point was. And they still could've asked the IW to be the guard, and still would've had one less traitor legion.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah, but they could've asked Perturabo, because he wasn't traitor at the time Dorn was asked, which is what your point was. And they still could've asked the IW to be the guard, and still would've had one less traitor legion.

Ok, they could've ask Perturabo, but he was doing what he did best or at least what the others thought, doing sieges. It was Dorns task to be the Praetorian, not Perturabo's.

I think we are talking about different times here. I'm referring to when the Fists actually managed to return to Terra and my point was they didn't know who to trust, look how trusting them turned out at the Dropsite Massacre. Sure Dorn and the rest didn't know they were traitors but he was a traitor at that time, in Perturabos eyes at least. Once he had burnt Olympia he didn't see how the Emperor could have forgiven him and Horus had gotten his claws into him.

I would assume that the reason why Dorn was asked to fortify the palace was be because he was already there, and at time of uncertainty, could be relied upon. Imagine what could have happened if Perturabo, already sworn to Horus, was called back to Terra and accepted.

Is what I said, I was incorrect about the first part as they weren't already there. But say that Dorn, rather than assign the Iron Warriors to the Istvaan task force, had asked them to come back to Terra, then imagine what might have happened.

The thing is, Perturabos whole betrayal could have been so easily prevented. The only reason he burnt Olympia was because of his pent up frustrations at his treatment, and the reason he joined Horus was because he offered him forgiveness for Olympia. If he'd been shown a modicum of gratitude throughh the great crusade, he'd have been as loyal as Dorn, or Sanguinius, or anyone.

When the Fists were at Terra and the Heresy broke out then I agree the fists were the only choice really.

Even when he was a traitor, Perturabo thought the aim of the Heresy was to overthrow the Emperor, not necessarily kill him and their brothers. Even when he was a traitor he started off fairly noble.

I wish I'd gone with Perturabo now on the poll sorry if it seems like I'm having a go or being overly argumentative, I just feel when people make Perturabo out to be some needlessly bitter, petty guy, they've kind of missed the whole of the buildup to why he turned. His betrayal is one of the most reasonable I think, and could have been so easily avoided.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The thing is, Perturabos whole betrayal could have been so easily prevented. The only reason he burnt Olympia was because of his pent up frustrations at his treatment, and the reason he joined Horus was because he offered him forgiveness for Olympia. If he'd been shown a modicum of gratitude throughh the great crusade, he'd have been as loyal as Dorn, or Sanguinius, or anyone.

But then why side with Horus, as Warmaster, Horus is as likely to have sent Perturabo on as many grubby missions as the Emperor. But yes, he most certainly could have been and his scene between him and the Emperor in Angel Exterminatus does support this. A Mortarion or Angron he is not.

Perturabo is a victim of his own circumstance it would seem, at the start he eagerly threw himself into the type of missions he would later be type cast for. I think it might have been a way from keeping him from really shining. Something that possibly Horus would stop him from doing maybe? Would Perturabo have made a better Warmaster than Horus?

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wish I'd gone with Perturabo now on the poll sorry if it seems like I'm having a go or being overly argumentative, I just feel when people make Perturabo out to be some needlessly bitter, petty guy, they've kind of missed the whole of the buildup to why he turned. His betrayal is one of the most reasonable I think, and could have been so easily avoided.

No worries and I agree, there is more to Perturbo then that. If he had had more faith in the Emperor and maybe more faith that the Emperor had faith in him, he might have been on the good guys side.

If him and Dorn had got on and fortified Terra together, the traitors would've had no chance haha.

As to why he sided with Horus, I don't know. I know a big part was he offered Perturabo forgiveness for Olympia, and I guess Perty knew he couldn't go back, but maybe Horus offered him more glory or something too. Probably empty promises...

I agree that the circumstances were partly his doing, I mean he never tried to talk to anyone about it, but then I guess that was probably stubbornness. And yeah, maybe Horus did have a bit of a hand in it, he was very very clever in the way he set up the whole heresy, where he stationed the legions etc, it wouldn't surprise me if towards the end he had something to do with it.

 ImAGeek wrote:
There was a Rememberancer who painted a picture of a siege that the IW and IF were both involved in. Pretty sure the IW did the majority of the work, the IF arrived later and mopped up kinda thing. The picture had loads of dead IW in the mud, and some IF raising a banner.

The Iron Warriors did every single thankless, menial task they were asked. They garrisoned worlds, lost many legionnaires in countless sieges, did things no other legion would even consider, and they got no thanks, no glory, nothing. And then their brother legion who they had a huge rivalry for decades got asked to fortify the Palace, even though the IW were obviously extremely adept at fortifying and garrisoning worlds.

Dorn could have been a lot more tactful. I think you're oversimplifying what happened a lot. Yes he could've ignored it, but seriously, decades of putting in backbreaking labour without so much as a thanks, and a comment like that which would make you feel worthless. I'd be exactly the same in Pertys place.

And to top it off, Perturabo had a real passion for designing, building etc, but he spent his entire career forced to destroy. He'd have absolutely fortified the Palace fantastically. It would have been nigh impenetrable, he really had the know how, but he never got chance to prove it. One of the Emperors biggest mistakes imo was not asking him to fortify Terra. He should have got them both to, and maybe they would've built some bridges. It was just another reason for Perturabo to think all his labour was completely unappreciated.

Seriously, I can totally see why he was so bitter. He's not just 'petty', he's been ground into the mud for decades without a word of thanks.

The Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors were always the mirros of each other. Where Dorn could do the harsh decisions Peturbo made them all the time. He transformed and shaped his legion himself. Dorn refused to talk to his legion until they have fought a battle. Perturbo elected decimation just to prove how brutal he were. And the Iron Warriors always accepted being had to be held as garrison-troops while the other Priarches seems to be under the impression that Peturbo really wanted these jobs for his legion. He forged his own destiny and Horus ended up with mutinies on his hands as the regular Imperial Army didn't want to work with Perturbo because of his wasteful tactics which had embroiled into sieges. Dorn had similar tactics but they always had some considerations of the guys (not just Space Marines) under his command while Perturbo could waste away men just to gauge what they were facing.

Are you arguing against something I said, or? Because I don't think I said anything that contradicts with anything in there?

 ImAGeek wrote:
Are you arguing against something I said, or? Because I don't think I said anything that contradicts with anything in there?

You have an odd way of expressing yourself then.

Fooled me, I thought you meant Pertubo was a good guy.

I didn't say anything about what he was like as a person, I just explained why he joined Horus. He was ruthless and cold blooded, yes. I said I like him, which is a different thing to saying he's a nice person.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Are you arguing against something I said, or? Because I don't think I said anything that contradicts with anything in there?

Actually, it kinda does. He was ruthless and cold-blooded, and, as said above, would readily throw away the lives of those under his command. Add to that his short fuse and the decimation thing for no good reason, and you can see why the Emperor would choose the Imperial Fists over the Iron Warriors as guardians of Terra. The Imperial Fists were much better suited for the role, even if that's what Perturabo had a 'passion' for.

Also, at the time they had already been type cast as the siege experts. The Emperor didn't go out of his way to make the Primarchs feel comfortable (see what he did with Lorgar). He only wanted them to get the job done. Why would he bring two legions home just to fortify Terra when they could be out besieging more fortresses?

I think it's also suggested that Horus had something to do with the constant siege battles so he could bring them into his fold. That said, this is a Primarch that we're talking about. He certainly acts very childish for what he is. Still, I like the Iron Warrriors but not so much their Primarch.

No don't get me wrong I can see why the Fists were asked instead of the IW, my point being that IF the IW were asked, they wouldn't have turned traitor.

And he would've fortified the Palace at least as well as Dorn, but yeah there are other factors at play.

I quite like Sanguinius- mainly for the fact that he snaps a Bloodthirster over his knee. The Lion because he prevents a 2nd Horus Heresy style event from spreading.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No don't get me wrong I can see why the Fists were asked instead of the IW, my point being that IF the IW were asked, they wouldn't have turned traitor.

And he would've fortified the Palace at least as well as Dorn, but yeah there are other factors at play.

Yea, then he probably wouldn't have turned traitor. But the same could be said of most if not all of the traitor primarchs and for Luther as well. Horus wouldn't have turned traitor if he wasn't wounded by Temba and taken to the Serpent Lodge; Magnus wouldn't have turned traitor if Prospero wasn't attacked; Fulgrim wouldn't have turned traitor if he hadn't picked up that demon blade, etc

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

I think that after Olympia Perturabo doesn't believe he has any choice. He thinks that the Emperor would never forgive him for what he had done and the only option he had was to throw his lot in with Horus.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No don't get me wrong I can see why the Fists were asked instead of the IW, my point being that IF the IW were asked, they wouldn't have turned traitor.

And he would've fortified the Palace at least as well as Dorn, but yeah there are other factors at play.

Yea, then he probably wouldn't have turned traitor. But the same could be said of most if not all of the traitor primarchs and for Luther as well. Horus wouldn't have turned traitor if he wasn't wounded by Temba and taken to the Serpent Lodge; Magnus wouldn't have turned traitor if Prospero wasn't attacked; Fulgrim wouldn't have turned traitor if he hadn't picked up that demon blade, etc

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

Not a conscious decision, but kind of self inflicted. But I feel like a lot of the Traitors reasons were somewhat self inflicted too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

I think that after Olympia Perturabo doesn't believe he has any choice. He thinks that the Emperor would never forgive him for what he had done and the only option he had was to throw his lot in with Horus.

Yeah, this too.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

The pent-up frustration comes from the fact that he is forced into service to a fascist, imperialist Empire instead of a democracy where everybody is happy and free.

Also, what Pilau Rice said.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

The pent-up frustration comes from the fact that he is forced into service to a fascist, imperialist Empire instead of a democracy where everybody is happy and free.

Also, what Pilau Rice said.

Oh, please. Perturabo wasted lives left and right - he couldn't care less what the people thought.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No don't get me wrong I can see why the Fists were asked instead of the IW, my point being that IF the IW were asked, they wouldn't have turned traitor.

And he would've fortified the Palace at least as well as Dorn, but yeah there are other factors at play.

Yea, then he probably wouldn't have turned traitor. But the same could be said of most if not all of the traitor primarchs and for Luther as well. Horus wouldn't have turned traitor if he wasn't wounded by Temba and taken to the Serpent Lodge; Magnus wouldn't have turned traitor if Prospero wasn't attacked; Fulgrim wouldn't have turned traitor if he hadn't picked up that demon blade, etc

But in Perturabo's case, the bitterness seems to come more from pent-up frustration and his own insecurity rather than any great outside influence. So the decision to become a traitor seems like a much more conscious decision than with the other cases.

Most of those were unavoidable though. Theyre luck based. You wouldnt be able to change Fulgrim picking up the sword of the Laer.
Except for Magnus, because Horus clearly orchestrated that.