favorite primarch

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**ImAGeek**

jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion is perfectly justified in his push for next Warmaster. I think he's the best suited for it. And yes, he killed one of his Chaplains, but the Chaplain wanted to turn them all in, despite the Librarians saving lives.

The Lion definitely wasn't the best suited for it. He lacked the people skills necesary. Being Warmaster isn't just about being a good tactician or whatever, you need to be liked and listened to by your brothers. Horus was the only one who everyone would listen to, except maybe Sanguinius. Guilliman for example is about as suited as the Lion, great tactician, great at organising at logistics, however, only about half his brothers listened to him/ liked him so it wouldn't have worked.

**Mordred**

ImAGeek wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion is perfectly justified in his push for next Warmaster. I think he's the best suited for it. And yes, he killed one of his Chaplains, but the Chaplain wanted to turn them all in, despite the Librarians saving lives.

The Lion definitely wasn't the best suited for it. He lacked the people skills necesary. Being Warmaster isn't just about being a good tactician or whatever, you need to be liked and listened to by your brothers. Horus was the only one who everyone would listen to, except maybe Sanguinius. Guilliman for example is about as suited as the Lion, great tactician, great at organising at logistics, however, only about half his brothers listened to him/ liked him so it wouldn't have worked.

I agree with your assesment that qualities like being listened to is important to be warmaster but when it comes to making war the Lion is the best. All the primarchs have specialties and draw backs Sanguinius is the best fighter, Guilliman is the best ruler, and The Lion is the best at making war. His downside of being secretive and not trusting in others is one of my favorite things about him because it makes him not a mary sue. He is a very cool conflicted character who had as hard a life as anyone so its understandable.
And I really wish people would shut up about Nemiel. Oh we are trapped in the warp and being assaulted by demons and the librarians are our only real weapon? ok unleash them. Nemiel gets pissy the Lion says, hey cool it extreme situation extreme measures i am Lord of Dark Angels and this is temporary Ill even tell dad myself.
Nemiel: no its wrong i wont let you!
Lion: careful im primarch and whats more im YOUR primarch
Nemiel: no ill kill them all to save our so......
Lion: whack.... gak i didnt mean to kill him
Ne1 here ever strike out in anger or yell, its called losing your cool. it happens and when your a 10ft tall demigod you might accidently decapitate someone when you ment to slap some sense into them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and can we talk about the real issue here? that there are people out there who said Lorgar is their favorite, i mean wtf?

**EngulfedObject**

I think the Nemiel head-slapping thing just comes down to bad writing. The Descent of Angels spends half the book setting up the rivalry between Zahariel and Nemiel, with the readers hoping for a showdown on Caliban. Then this random author just comes in and has the Lion slap his head off.

**jreilly89**

Mordred wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion is perfectly justified in his push for next Warmaster. I think he's the best suited for it. And yes, he killed one of his Chaplains, but the Chaplain wanted to turn them all in, despite the Librarians saving lives.

The Lion definitely wasn't the best suited for it. He lacked the people skills necesary. Being Warmaster isn't just about being a good tactician or whatever, you need to be liked and listened to by your brothers. Horus was the only one who everyone would listen to, except maybe Sanguinius. Guilliman for example is about as suited as the Lion, great tactician, great at organising at logistics, however, only about half his brothers listened to him/ liked him so it wouldn't have worked.

I agree with your assesment that qualities like being listened to is important to be warmaster but when it comes to making war the Lion is the best. All the primarchs have specialties and draw backs Sanguinius is the best fighter, Guilliman is the best ruler, and The Lion is the best at making war. His downside of being secretive and not trusting in others is one of my favorite things about him because it makes him not a mary sue. He is a very cool conflicted character who had as hard a life as anyone so its understandable.
And I really wish people would shut up about Nemiel. Oh we are trapped in the warp and being assaulted by demons and the librarians are our only real weapon? ok unleash them. Nemiel gets pissy the Lion says, hey cool it extreme situation extreme measures i am Lord of Dark Angels and this is temporary Ill even tell dad myself.
Nemiel: no its wrong i wont let you!
Lion: careful im primarch and whats more im YOUR primarch
Nemiel: no ill kill them all to save our so......
Lion: whack.... gak i didnt mean to kill him
Ne1 here ever strike out in anger or yell, its called losing your cool. it happens and when your a 10ft tall demigod you might accidently decapitate someone when you ment to slap some sense into them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and can we talk about the real issue here? that there are people out there who said Lorgar is their favorite, i mean wtf?

Agreed. As warmaster, your first duty should be war, not trying to get along with everyone. I would hope that, as warmaster, the others would respect and obey the Lion's commands even if they didn't agree/get along with him.

**ImAGeek**

Yes, but to wage war, you need to be able to coordinate your forces, which requires they respect you. Horus is still an excellent tactician, and has the bonus that everybody respected him and would do what he asked. That's why he was picked over the Lion, or Guilliman. The only other viable candidate was Sanguinius really.

You might hope the others would obey the Lion, but they wouldn't. Hell, Angron didn't even obey Horus as Istvaan 3. The Lion just flat out didn't have the people skills to lead the whole Great Crusade.

**Orblivion**

The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

**jreilly89**

Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

**Wyzilla**

jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

Sanguinius isn't perfect. He's the only Primarch to come across a radioactive wasteland of a homeworld, and leave his homeworld a radioactive wasteland.

**ImAGeek**

jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

Horus is also dead, does that mean he wasn't suitable as Warmaster..?

Sanguinius gave his life fighting Horus. Horus had 4 chaos gods entire power behind him, Sanguinius was 'just' a Primarch. I'm sure he knew he was going to die. Also, didn't he chink Horus' armour, which let the Emperor deal the killing blow?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyzilla wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

Sanguinius isn't perfect. He's the only Primarch to come across a radioactive wasteland of a homeworld, and leave his homeworld a radioactive wasteland.

To be fair, I'd say that's preferable to what happened to Nostramo/Olympia.

**Veteran Sergeant**

ImAGeek wrote:Nah, I've been through this. I agree that the Lion and Guilliman both made the same mistake not getting to Terra, but I like Guilliman for other reasons, and hate the Lion for other reasons.

Now, who knows what nonsense TBL will come up with in the novel series (which is irrecoverably off the rails at this point), but in the older fluff, there was never a "mistake" in not getting to Terra. Horus struck while the Ultramarines were on the far side of the galaxy, and thus didn't make it to Terra until the battle was over.

In the old stories, Horus was smarter. He realized he'd destroyed three Legions at Istvaan V, distracted the Wolves with Propsero, and that left only three Legions that could defend Terra. Thus he took his eight Legions straight to Terra to fight those three while he had the advantage of numbers and surprise. Remember, the Traitor Legions were already shorthanded after murdering all of their loyalists at Istvaan III, so Horus had to strike while the iron was hot. If he wins at Terra, he's defeated the Emperor and destroyed the symbolic face of the Imperium, and he's destroyed six of the nine Legions that could oppose him. The he could consolidate his forces and work on destroying the Ulramarines, and the remnants of the Space Wolves (depeleted in their frontal assault on Prospero) and the Dark Angels (depleted fighting themselves). Depending on the age of the fluff, later versions included Calth, which means the Ultramarines would also be depleted, having had to fight the sacrificial Word Bearers at Calth.

Either way, there was no "mistake" in the original story. Horus used cunning, speed and surprise. Which are the kinds of things you might want to use if your goal is to defeat the most powerful psyker in the Imperium and a galaxy's worth of armies at his disposal. Using his authority as Warmaster to make sure the Ultramarines weren't in place to oppose him was Creed-level genius.

My answer to the OP's question is Guilliman. He wrote the Big Book of Space Marining and saved the Imperium after the Emperor's fall. But he also was also too loyal to become Emperor II, so I believe in a lot of ways Guilliman is responsible for the declining state of mankind. He believed that the Emperor had never meant for the primarchs to rule, only to conquer, and thus he gave up his place as a High Lord and the supreme commander of the Imperium. An Imperium under Guilliman's rule would be like Ultramar. But he left it to fallible humans, and instead greed, superstition and factionalism destroyed what the Emperor built. Guilliman is one of the most complex and interesting of all the primarch characters in 40K, and yet usually gets dismissed as "boring" by people not looking at the bigger picture behind his story.

**ImAGeek**

Vet Sergeant, have an exalt. I completely agree about Guilliman.

**jreilly89**

Wyzilla wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

Sanguinius isn't perfect. He's the only Primarch to come across a radioactive wasteland of a homeworld, and leave his homeworld a radioactive wasteland.

That still hardly seems like much of a flaw.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ImAGeek wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

Horus is also dead, does that mean he wasn't suitable as Warmaster..?

Sanguinius gave his life fighting Horus. Horus had 4 chaos gods entire power behind him, Sanguinius was 'just' a Primarch. I'm sure he knew he was going to die. Also, didn't he chink Horus' armour, which let the Emperor deal the killing blow?

Even still being 'just' a Primarch, as the person who should have been the next Warmaster, I would've expected a bit more fight out of him.

**ImAGeek**

I doubt any of the other Primarchs would have fared any better than Sanguinius did against Horus. Like I said, being Warmaster is more than just fighting skill, or tactician, it's a combination of everything. The only two Primarchs who had the right combination of skills to be considered Warmaster were Horus and Sanguinius.

**Orblivion**

jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

So is the Lion for all intents and purposes. Horus tooled up the Emperor too, so how can Sanguinius be expected to fair any better?

**Veteran Sergeant**

To be fair, appearing perfect is Sanguinius's role in the 40K story, much like being dutiful was Guilliman's and being unquestioningly loyal was Russ's.

The term "flaw" gets bandied about a lot in discussions of 40K fluff because at a low level, people learn in literature and writing courses that "good characters have flaws". Ad while that's a great baseline to work with if you're a beginning writer trying to create an engaging narrative and some internal conflict, it's not some inalterable writing mantra. And in reality, there are people who don't have any significant, glaring flaws. Maybe an attractive guy like Brad Pitt who is wealthy and successful and seemingly a pretty charitable wouldn't make a good story. Doesn't make him not a real or believable person.

We can nitpick over minor flaws, but the reality is that Sanguinius was supposed to appear so perfect. You look at the way Lorgar anguishes in The First Heretic over how he perceives his brothers, and how he believes that reflects poorly on himself in the Emperor's eyes. You look at the way Horus jealously considers Guilliman and Sanguinius as threats to him and his authority as Warmaster. The story needs a character like Sanguinius to provide conflict.

There's no need for characters like Sanguinius to have some kind of cartoony, exaggerated flaw. It's okay for a story to have a character like Sanguinius to bring out the flaws in its other characters. Just as Guilliman had no need of some cartoony exagerrated flaw because his place in the story was to be The Good Son against which other characters judged themselves. And ultimately, Guilliman's flaw was being too dutiful. It was just that his flaw wasn't relevant until after the fall of the Emperor, and he failed to recognize that his place was as the new Emperor, as the surrogate symbolic figure in the Imperium.

**Redcruisair**

So Guilliman is basically the 40K version of Ultra Magnus?

**jreilly89**

Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

So is the Lion for all intents and purposes. Horus tooled up the Emperor too, so how can Sanguinius be expected to fair any better?

The Lion is hardly perfect, as has already been covered in this thread. I would expect Sanguinius not to fair better, but to put up some of a fight. Hell, he broke a Greater Daemon's back.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ImAGeek wrote:
I doubt any of the other Primarchs would have fared any better than Sanguinius did against Horus. Like I said, being Warmaster is more than just fighting skill, or tactician, it's a combination of everything. The only two Primarchs who had the right combination of skills to be considered Warmaster were Horus and Sanguinius.

Right, it is a combination of everything. But still, the Warmaster should be stronger than the other Primarchs, by virtue of being the Warmaster.

**Veteran Sergeant**

I don't know Transformers very well. My only real memory of Ultra Magnus is Transformers The Movie (the real one, not whatever that live action nonsense was), but in that, he wasn't the One (or whatever), whereas in 40K Guilliman actually was the one who needed to guide the Imperium in the post-Emperor age, but turned it down.

**Orblivion**

jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

So is the Lion for all intents and purposes. Horus tooled up the Emperor too, so how can Sanguinius be expected to fair any better?

The Lion is hardly perfect, as has already been covered in this thread. I would expect Sanguinius not to fair better, but to put up some of a fight. Hell, he broke a Greater Daemon's back.

We don't know that he didn't, the fight has never been portrayed. All we know is that when the Emperor entered the room Sanguinius was already dead.

**jreilly89**

Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

So is the Lion for all intents and purposes. Horus tooled up the Emperor too, so how can Sanguinius be expected to fair any better?

The Lion is hardly perfect, as has already been covered in this thread. I would expect Sanguinius not to fair better, but to put up some of a fight. Hell, he broke a Greater Daemon's back.

We don't know that he didn't, the fight has never been portrayed. All we know is that when the Emperor entered the room Sanguinius was already dead.

So then he may have gotten murdered like a punk, and no one knows.

**ImAGeek**

Or he might have given as good as he got until the killing blow.

**Orblivion**

jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

So is the Lion for all intents and purposes. Horus tooled up the Emperor too, so how can Sanguinius be expected to fair any better?

The Lion is hardly perfect, as has already been covered in this thread. I would expect Sanguinius not to fair better, but to put up some of a fight. Hell, he broke a Greater Daemon's back.

We don't know that he didn't, the fight has never been portrayed. All we know is that when the Emperor entered the room Sanguinius was already dead.

So then he may have gotten murdered like a punk, and no one knows.

He may have yeah, but you're acting like we know it happened for a fact and you're disappointed in him for it.

**jreilly89**

Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
The other thing people always forget about who should be Warmaster is the that the Warmaster is supposed to be the Emperor's proxy. Only someone who, in most situations, would act as the Emperor would could actually be granted the title IMO. After Horus, that leaves Sanguinius as top pick.

Probably, but Sanguinius is dead. I don't know why, but I never liked Sanguinius. He always seemed much too perfect, but Horus cut him down like he was next to nothing.

So is the Lion for all intents and purposes. Horus tooled up the Emperor too, so how can Sanguinius be expected to fair any better?

The Lion is hardly perfect, as has already been covered in this thread. I would expect Sanguinius not to fair better, but to put up some of a fight. Hell, he broke a Greater Daemon's back.

We don't know that he didn't, the fight has never been portrayed. All we know is that when the Emperor entered the room Sanguinius was already dead.

So then he may have gotten murdered like a punk, and no one knows.

He may have yeah, but you're acting like we know it happened for a fact and you're disappointed in him for it.

No, I'm disappointed that Sanguinius can do no wrong but the Lion gets gak.

**ImAGeek**

But, I mean literally, what did Sanguinius do wrong? There isn't really anything he did wrong, he didn't make any mistakes, and he sold his life trying to save humanity.

**jreilly89**

ImAGeek wrote:
But, I mean literally, what did Sanguinius do wrong? There isn't really anything he did wrong, he didn't make any mistakes, and he sold his life trying to save humanity.

But that's my problem with him. I just feel he's too perfect, like with no character faults. Every other Primarch has at least some fault, such as being too proud or awkward.

**ImAGeek**

jreilly89 wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
But, I mean literally, what did Sanguinius do wrong? There isn't really anything he did wrong, he didn't make any mistakes, and he sold his life trying to save humanity.

But that's my problem with him. I just feel he's too perfect, like with no character faults.

That's fair enough then, perfectly good reason for you to not like him

I do like him, he was selfless and the only Primarch who actively tried to get on with all the others.

**jreilly89**

ImAGeek wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
But, I mean literally, what did Sanguinius do wrong? There isn't really anything he did wrong, he didn't make any mistakes, and he sold his life trying to save humanity.

But that's my problem with him. I just feel he's too perfect, like with no character faults.

That's fair enough then, perfectly good reason for you to not like him I do like him, he was selfless and the only Primarch who actively tried to get on with all the others.

Touche. I guess I have just not read enough on him, and all I've really ever seen is "Sanguinius OMG he's the best", so I will admit, I'm not that versed in his lore

**Brother-Redemptor**

First time poster here so try to be gentle.
I believe I can understand where jreilly89 is coming from in regard to the Lion. He does seem to get a lot of undeserved hatred thrown his way.

Spoiler:

The second big thing that he gets a lot of stick for is the Nemiel incident. This one is probably the one that gets the most distorted the more times it is repeated. Some people like to claim that it was the Lion cold heartedly executing a loyal son for daring to speak his mind but in my honest opinion this is not the case.

Spoiler:

Now as the story goes the Lion finds himself trapped between real space and the warp with no way of raising the void shields. An army of daemons are spreading through his ship and butchering everyone they come across. Meanwhile on the bridge a former librarian in an act of apparent desperation calls upon his gift to banish the invaders from the immediate area. Nemiel who at this point is surrounded by his terminator bodyguard and with weapons in hand demands that the kneeling Marine be executed immediately for breaking his oath. The Lion on the other hand had other ideas; going down to one knee he asked the Librarian if he truly had the ability to defeat the Daemons and upon getting a conformation helped the Marine to his feet. The Lion then turned to Nemiel and ordered that all the former Librarians be reinstated which did not go down well. Even after the Lion stated that this was an emergency action and that he would make sure that there would be proper repercussions after they and the ship where safe Nemiel still demanded the Librarian’s execution. The standoff then grew more heated until the Lion lashed out in anger striking Nemiel with the back of his hand in a similar manner to dorn when Garro bought him the news of Horus’s Heresy, the blow removed Nemiel’s head from his shoulders. Now here is where it gets tricky to me it’s clear that this was not a premeditated act of violence nor was it a normal thing for the Lion to do. The fact that everyone on the bridge is so shocked by Nemiel’s death I think does go some way in showing that the Lion’s sudden violent reaction is far from his normal behaviour. To me this scene plays out like a straw that broke the camel's back incident rather than cold blooded murder. Now bare in mind that the Lion is not the most open of people and tends to bottle things up then consider what has happened to him up to this point. First Horus turning against their father then being tricked by Perturabo into handing over the super weapons that where then used to destroy the loyalists Legion’s upon Istvaan V and may or may not have been responsible for the apparent deaths of three of his brother’s. Then the appearance of the warp storms that prevented him from reaching Terra and his father then add how frustrated he was at not being able to bring the Night Lords to heel during their three year cat and mouse chase. Not to mention the fact that the Lion is finding the desire to return to Caliban and find out what is going on with luther and the Dark Angels Stationed on his home world especially after his encounter with Curze and the fact that they have had no word from Caliban since the Heresy started increasingly difficult to ignore. Add it all together and you have a ticking time bomb waiting to go off at any moment. After finding himself trapped between realities with daemons pouring in from the warp Nemiel’s defiance that at any other time would have been a mere irritation to the Lion proved to be the final crack in the dame, in a single moment all the Lion’s anger and frustration finally found a release in the form of a single violent action. Does this excuse the Lion’s action’s no but it does I hope offer some reasonable reasons for them after all the Lion does show genuine regret over his actions, kneeling beside the broken body his face twisted in pain and with his head bowed he swore that they would mourn for the chaplain once the immediate situation had been dealt with all the while never letting his eyes leave Nemiel’s broken form.

Does the Lion have his flaws yes and I can understand way he may not be everyone’s first choice but I really don’t get all the hate that is sometime directed at him.

As for Sanguinius he does have his flaws but they are not quite as obvious as some of the others. In some ways he is similar to Fulgrim but without the ego. Both Sanguinius and Fulgrim present an apparent perfect exterior that hides the fact that they are internally riddled by their own personal fears and insecurity’s. Fulgrim’s obsession with perfection was driven by the disaster with his Gene–seed before his reunion with them that had left his Legion greatly understrength. The fault in the gene-seed gave birth to the fear that there was something fundamentally wrong with him and his legion and so to compensate he went out of his way to only present a perfect and flawless image of himself and his legion. Sanguinius on the other hand was afraid that his Legion’s secret shame in the form of the red thirst might someday be revealed believing that if the emperor ever found out his father would order the destruction of the Blood Angels and possibly Sanguinius himself. The flaw in his blood and the dire conscience if it ever came to light was a constant threat and in order to hide it Sanguinius like Fulgrim created a false image of perfection believing that as long as he did everything that was expected of him and gave no reason for others to doubt him and his legion then no one would be likely to look to closely or take any reports that might be detrimental to his Legion being taken seriously. Sanguinius grew so fearful of his flaw and the fact that more and more of his sons were being effected and in Increasingly greater and greater numbers that he did everything he could to keep it hidden even going as far as personally killing his own sons by secretly snapping their necks after the battle if they had succumbed to the thirst and could no longer be reasoned with.

**3AcresAndATau**

For the Rock and for the Lion!

I can't really say I "like" any of the Primarchs, they were all pivotal to the Great Crusade, and the ideals of the great Crusade really grind my gears, "Yes, we shall liberate you and enlighten you by crushing your belief systems and forcing you under an autocratic regime devoid of republican ideals, even though you guys could totes take care of yourself. By the way, I'm a magic man, but that's not for you", its cool fluff but it makes it hard to like the Imperium's top brass.

But I do dig the DA slightly more than BA, with the long range firepower schtik, airpower, and secretive knightly order stuff sealing the deal, so Johnson deserves some credit for that.

**Brother-Redemptor**

3AcresAndATau wrote:
For the Rock and for the Lion!

I can't really say I "like" any of the Primarchs, they were all pivotal to the Great Crusade, and the ideals of the great Crusade really grind my gears, "Yes, we shall liberate you and enlighten you by crushing your belief systems and forcing you under an autocratic regime devoid of republican ideals, even though you guys could totes take care of yourself. By the way, I'm a magic man, but that's not for you", its cool fluff but it makes it hard to like the Imperium's top brass.

Wait were supposed to like them?