jreilly89 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think the Lion is perfectly justified in his push for next Warmaster. I think he's the best suited for it. And yes, he killed one of his Chaplains, but the Chaplain wanted to turn them all in, despite the Librarians saving lives.

You do realize that the Dark Angels have never followed the Edict of Nikaea, right? Case in point: Brother-Librarian Israfael teaching Zahariel how to be a Master Psyker over the 50 years that Luther and his training Cadre are on Caliban. That whole story was just one big steaming pile of bad fluff.

Well, that is the curse of GW. Some of their fluff is great, and some of it is terrible.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Corax and Vulkan are ones I really like. Kurze has nifty visual design but seems to have a less interesting personality.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
For the Rock and for the Lion!

I can't really say I "like" any of the Primarchs, they were all pivotal to the Great Crusade, and the ideals of the great Crusade really grind my gears, "Yes, we shall liberate you and enlighten you by crushing your belief systems and forcing you under an autocratic regime devoid of republican ideals, even though you guys could totes take care of yourself. By the way, I'm a magic man, but that's not for you", its cool fluff but it makes it hard to like the Imperium's top brass.

Wait were supposed to like them?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Corax and Vulkan are ones I really like. Kurze has nifty visual design but seems to have a less interesting personality.

I like Curze, but he seems rather nuts even pre-Chaos.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Corax and Vulkan are ones I really like. Kurze has nifty visual design but seems to have a less interesting personality.

I like Curze, but he seems rather nuts even pre-Chaos.

Well he's been suffering visions of his brothers beating the snot out of him since a child, endless war engulfing the entire galaxy, and grew up on a planet where the way of saying hello was shanking somebody.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:
First time poster here so try to be gentle.
I believe I can understand where jreilly89 is coming from in regard to the Lion. He does seem to get a lot of undeserved hatred thrown his way.

Spoiler:

He tried to prevent Horus from taking Terra by denying him the weapons he needed to break its defences. But then ended up handing them over to Perturabo who he believed was still loyal in exchange for his support in becoming the new Warmaster after Horus was dealt with. Personally I don’t see the problem with this. Why should the Lion not put his name forward and if he can somehow get some additional support for his candidacy all the better. As far as the Lion was concerned Perturabo was there on Dorn’s orders and was going to join up with the other apparent loyal Legions to punish Horus and his rebels. The Lion who only had the small number of Dark Angels that he had bought with him saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. By giving Perturabo the weapons he was providing the loyal forces with some much desired additional firepower and in doing so he would secure one of his brother’s support. It should I think be noted that the Lion was very angry at himself for being as he put “made a fool of” by Perturabo.

The second big thing that he gets a lot of stick for is the Nemiel incident. This one is probably the one that gets the most distorted the more times it is repeated. Some people like to claim that it was the Lion cold heartedly executing a loyal son for daring to speak his mind but in my honest opinion this is not the case.

Spoiler:

Now as the story goes the Lion finds himself trapped between real space and the warp with no way of raising the void shields. An army of daemons are spreading through his ship and butchering everyone they come across. Meanwhile on the bridge a former librarian in an act of apparent desperation calls upon his gift to banish the invaders from the immediate area. Nemiel who at this point is surrounded by his terminator bodyguard and with weapons in hand demands that the kneeling Marine be executed immediately for breaking his oath. The Lion on the other hand had other ideas; going down to one knee he asked the Librarian if he truly had the ability to defeat the Daemons and upon getting a conformation helped the Marine to his feet. The Lion then turned to Nemiel and ordered that all the former Librarians be reinstated which did not go down well. Even after the Lion stated that this was an emergency action and that he would make sure that there would be proper repercussions after they and the ship where safe Nemiel still demanded the Librarian’s execution. The standoff then grew more heated until the Lion lashed out in anger striking Nemiel with the back of his hand in a similar manner to dorn when Garro bought him the news of Horus’s Heresy, the blow removed Nemiel’s head from his shoulders. Now here is where it gets tricky to me it’s clear that this was not a premeditated act of violence nor was it a normal thing for the Lion to do. The fact that everyone on the bridge is so shocked by Nemiel’s death I think does go some way in showing that the Lion’s sudden violent reaction is far from his normal behaviour. To me this scene plays out like a straw that broke the camel's back incident rather than cold blooded murder. Now bare in mind that the Lion is not the most open of people and tends to bottle things up then consider what has happened to him up to this point. First Horus turning against their father then being tricked by Perturabo into handing over the super weapons that where then used to destroy the loyalists Legion’s upon Istvaan V and may or may not have been responsible for the apparent deaths of three of his brother’s. Then the appearance of the warp storms that prevented him from reaching Terra and his father then add how frustrated he was at not being able to bring the Night Lords to heel during their three year cat and mouse chase. Not to mention the fact that the Lion is finding the desire to return to Caliban and find out what is going on with luther and the Dark Angels Stationed on his home world especially after his encounter with Curze and the fact that they have had no word from Caliban since the Heresy started increasingly difficult to ignore. Add it all together and you have a ticking time bomb waiting to go off at any moment. After finding himself trapped between realities with daemons pouring in from the warp Nemiel’s defiance that at any other time would have been a mere irritation to the Lion proved to be the final crack in the dame, in a single moment all the Lion’s anger and frustration finally found a release in the form of a single violent action. Does this excuse the Lion’s action’s no but it does I hope offer some reasonable reasons for them after all the Lion does show genuine regret over his actions, kneeling beside the broken body his face twisted in pain and with his head bowed he swore that they would mourn for the chaplain once the immediate situation had been dealt with all the while never letting his eyes leave Nemiel’s broken form.

Does the Lion have his flaws yes and I can understand way he may not be everyone’s first choice but I really don’t get all the hate that is sometime directed at him.

As for Sanguinius he does have his flaws but they are not quite as obvious as some of the others. In some ways he is similar to Fulgrim but without the ego. Both Sanguinius and Fulgrim present an apparent perfect exterior that hides the fact that they are internally riddled by their own personal fears and insecurity’s. Fulgrim’s obsession with perfection was driven by the disaster with his Gene–seed before his reunion with them that had left his Legion greatly understrength. The fault in the gene-seed gave birth to the fear that there was something fundamentally wrong with him and his legion and so to compensate he went out of his way to only present a perfect and flawless image of himself and his legion. Sanguinius on the other hand was afraid that his Legion’s secret shame in the form of the red thirst might someday be revealed believing that if the emperor ever found out his father would order the destruction of the Blood Angels and possibly Sanguinius himself. The flaw in his blood and the dire conscience if it ever came to light was a constant threat and in order to hide it Sanguinius like Fulgrim created a false image of perfection believing that as long as he did everything that was expected of him and gave no reason for others to doubt him and his legion then no one would be likely to look to closely or take any reports that might be detrimental to his Legion being taken seriously. Sanguinius grew so fearful of his flaw and the fact that more and more of his sons were being effected and in Increasingly greater and greater numbers that he did everything he could to keep it hidden even going as far as personally killing his own sons by secretly snapping their necks after the battle if they had succumbed to the thirst and could no longer be reasoned with.

Brother-Redemptor wrote:
First time poster here so try to be gentle.
I believe I can understand where jreilly89 is coming from in regard to the Lion. He does seem to get a lot of undeserved hatred thrown his way.

Spoiler:

He tried to prevent Horus from taking Terra by denying him the weapons he needed to break its defences. But then ended up handing them over to Perturabo who he believed was still loyal in exchange for his support in becoming the new Warmaster after Horus was dealt with. Personally I don’t see the problem with this. Why should the Lion not put his name forward and if he can somehow get some additional support for his candidacy all the better. As far as the Lion was concerned Perturabo was there on Dorn’s orders and was going to join up with the other apparent loyal Legions to punish Horus and his rebels. The Lion who only had the small number of Dark Angels that he had bought with him saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. By giving Perturabo the weapons he was providing the loyal forces with some much desired additional firepower and in doing so he would secure one of his brother’s support. It should I think be noted that the Lion was very angry at himself for being as he put “made a fool of” by Perturabo.

The second big thing that he gets a lot of stick for is the Nemiel incident. This one is probably the one that gets the most distorted the more times it is repeated. Some people like to claim that it was the Lion cold heartedly executing a loyal son for daring to speak his mind but in my honest opinion this is not the case.

Spoiler:

Now as the story goes the Lion finds himself trapped between real space and the warp with no way of raising the void shields. An army of daemons are spreading through his ship and butchering everyone they come across. Meanwhile on the bridge a former librarian in an act of apparent desperation calls upon his gift to banish the invaders from the immediate area. Nemiel who at this point is surrounded by his terminator bodyguard and with weapons in hand demands that the kneeling Marine be executed immediately for breaking his oath. The Lion on the other hand had other ideas; going down to one knee he asked the Librarian if he truly had the ability to defeat the Daemons and upon getting a conformation helped the Marine to his feet. The Lion then turned to Nemiel and ordered that all the former Librarians be reinstated which did not go down well. Even after the Lion stated that this was an emergency action and that he would make sure that there would be proper repercussions after they and the ship where safe Nemiel still demanded the Librarian’s execution. The standoff then grew more heated until the Lion lashed out in anger striking Nemiel with the back of his hand in a similar manner to dorn when Garro bought him the news of Horus’s Heresy, the blow removed Nemiel’s head from his shoulders. Now here is where it gets tricky to me it’s clear that this was not a premeditated act of violence nor was it a normal thing for the Lion to do. The fact that everyone on the bridge is so shocked by Nemiel’s death I think does go some way in showing that the Lion’s sudden violent reaction is far from his normal behaviour. To me this scene plays out like a straw that broke the camel's back incident rather than cold blooded murder. Now bare in mind that the Lion is not the most open of people and tends to bottle things up then consider what has happened to him up to this point. First Horus turning against their father then being tricked by Perturabo into handing over the super weapons that where then used to destroy the loyalists Legion’s upon Istvaan V and may or may not have been responsible for the apparent deaths of three of his brother’s. Then the appearance of the warp storms that prevented him from reaching Terra and his father then add how frustrated he was at not being able to bring the Night Lords to heel during their three year cat and mouse chase. Not to mention the fact that the Lion is finding the desire to return to Caliban and find out what is going on with luther and the Dark Angels Stationed on his home world especially after his encounter with Curze and the fact that they have had no word from Caliban since the Heresy started increasingly difficult to ignore. Add it all together and you have a ticking time bomb waiting to go off at any moment. After finding himself trapped between realities with daemons pouring in from the warp Nemiel’s defiance that at any other time would have been a mere irritation to the Lion proved to be the final crack in the dame, in a single moment all the Lion’s anger and frustration finally found a release in the form of a single violent action. Does this excuse the Lion’s action’s no but it does I hope offer some reasonable reasons for them after all the Lion does show genuine regret over his actions, kneeling beside the broken body his face twisted in pain and with his head bowed he swore that they would mourn for the chaplain once the immediate situation had been dealt with all the while never letting his eyes leave Nemiel’s broken form.

Does the Lion have his flaws yes and I can understand way he may not be everyone’s first choice but I really don’t get all the hate that is sometime directed at him.

As for Sanguinius he does have his flaws but they are not quite as obvious as some of the others. In some ways he is similar to Fulgrim but without the ego. Both Sanguinius and Fulgrim present an apparent perfect exterior that hides the fact that they are internally riddled by their own personal fears and insecurity’s. Fulgrim’s obsession with perfection was driven by the disaster with his Gene–seed before his reunion with them that had left his Legion greatly understrength. The fault in the gene-seed gave birth to the fear that there was something fundamentally wrong with him and his legion and so to compensate he went out of his way to only present a perfect and flawless image of himself and his legion. Sanguinius on the other hand was afraid that his Legion’s secret shame in the form of the red thirst might someday be revealed believing that if the emperor ever found out his father would order the destruction of the Blood Angels and possibly Sanguinius himself. The flaw in his blood and the dire conscience if it ever came to light was a constant threat and in order to hide it Sanguinius like Fulgrim created a false image of perfection believing that as long as he did everything that was expected of him and gave no reason for others to doubt him and his legion then no one would be likely to look to closely or take any reports that might be detrimental to his Legion being taken seriously. Sanguinius grew so fearful of his flaw and the fact that more and more of his sons were being effected and in Increasingly greater and greater numbers that he did everything he could to keep it hidden even going as far as personally killing his own sons by secretly snapping their necks after the battle if they had succumbed to the thirst and could no longer be reasoned with.

Vulgar wrote:
The Khan, and this is new.

The warhawk thinks for himself. He seems to have real honor, and the last HH novel I read based on him, still left him semi mysterious, but I read into it(prolly too much), but this is the guy who would rebel for the "right" reasons.

If the Khan was active in M40, he'd be destroying the inquisition, the ecclesiarchy (sp), and trying to set people free.

Second choice : Perturabo. Even though he's a moody bitch, I get him, because I'm a moody bitch too. Also; I admire craft and excellence in craft.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

Vulgar wrote:
The Khan, and this is new.

The warhawk thinks for himself. He seems to have real honor, and the last HH novel I read based on him, still left him semi mysterious, but I read into it(prolly too much), but this is the guy who would rebel for the "right" reasons.

If the Khan was active in M40, he'd be destroying the inquisition, the ecclesiarchy (sp), and trying to set people free.

Second choice : Perturabo. Even though he's a moody bitch, I get him, because I'm a moody bitch too. Also; I admire craft and excellence in craft.

In all honesty, I think most of the still living loyalist Primarchs would be fighting the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra if they were active in the world.

Personally, I think the reason Guilliman remains in stasis to this day, his wounds untreated, rather than the Imperium bending their resources to healing him or interring him in a Dreadnought, is because it serves the High Lords of Terra for him to remain so. Of all the Primarchs, he was closest to the Emperor's intellectual equal, and cared most about the common people of the Imperium. I don't think he would ever stand for what has become of the Imperium under the High Lords' rule, and if he decided to make war upon them, not only would the Ultramarines rise to the call, I think that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists (and all their various successor chapters), would likely answer the call, too, in honor of the deep respect Guilliman held for their Primarchs, and they for him (although, in fairness, there was something of a split between him and Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn over their refusal to accept the Codex Astartes).