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Hi - over some time I'll probably be making several threads in several sub forums as I'm making my own codices based on the D10 instead of D6.

As I'm getting ideas for a Black Templars codex I thought about the complaint some have about the Black Templars. Some seem to think that they favour close combat but don't they just prefer to be at short range with the enemy on the battlefield?

What about their actual close combat skills? I understand that they're fanatical and very proud and honourable but when we're talking Space Marines chapters - which ones aren't proud and honourable? And even fanatic when it comes down to it?

Well mostly I'm interested in their actual close combat skills and I will be mentioning their rules but as this conversation is based on background, I think I'm in the right place.
In my opinion the former rules which gave the Black Templars Fearlessness in close combat and which made them unable to benefit from cover (yes I know this was an optional vow) was good ways to depict their fanaticism. Rules which forces units to move somewhere could be accurate as well but in-game it's an extremely annoying factor.
This is actually a very interesting subject because I've never minded that I was forced to move my Khornate units through the editions but many Black Templar players seem to only acknowledge the proud and honourable side of their Black Templars, not what fanaticism could actually lead to on the battlefield.
If it wouldn't lead to rage I would consider giving them a rule which forces them to declare a charge if the enemy is within reach and some kind of rule which makes them take a leadership test if they want to shoot an enemy unit which is not the closest one as I remember reading they prefer to watch the agony of the enemy when they shoot them.

But what do you think? Most of this is based on the Black Templars codex and the Space Marines codex - I haven't read any books based on them.

I'd say all marines are a bit fanatical to a degree. Some more some less. They are talking themself into it. I've not really read mucha bout marines going "oh wait a minute, this is bullsh*t, we shouldnt fight against each other".
The more fanatism the less rational thinking. I think it's to do with the romantical image of knights templar ... "honourable, proud, strong" Except their real actions where not honourable at all alot of the time. Nobody wants to remember that though.

However, in 40k a bit of fanatism doesnt really stand out. In most of the fights with their enemies there will be no quarter given and noone will ask for it (most of the time). It's a fight to the death most of the time. So fanatical or not, you still fight to the death.
In the context of 40k, fanatism that stands out from the rest is basically a measure for how prepared you are for sacrifising you/ your valued soldiers for little benefit. (Imperial guardsmen usually are no valued soldiers )

The fluff from the Space Marines codex states that they are unusually furious and unorthodox close-combat fighters, and that is reflected in their chapter tactics rules (they are better fighters in challenges than other Space Marines). Not sure about their regular rank and file, but their commanders are known for being superior fighters.

I would be curious to see how they compare to Space Wolves, who have the same reputation.

My impression of the Black Templars are that they are jerks with hearts of gold. They feel sorry for losses, but they will do the nasty thing if that needs to be done. Their fanaticism is more against abhumans and Xens than true humans. Grimaldus blew up near non-Astartes during Armageddon and apologized on the spot. So true good ain't nice here, but they are rather nice compared to many chapters.

Also I'm very skeptical towards anything written in the Space Marine-codex personally as it seemed slanted with a very heavy Ultramarine POV.

As close-combat-specialists I believe only the SW and BA comes close to them of the originating legions with the Sharks (can't remember the Latin-name) and maybe Miniotaurs at a close shot so the BT are quite awesome in close-combat.

I kind of have a problem with the argument that their characters are better in close combat. I know the rules and I think they're okay but I see this as a result of their pride - it would be more humiliating for them to lose a close combat than for others because of their pride - not so much because they are better skilled. But I'll gladly read a paragraph where it says that they're better. (I will not get into a discussion about this as I acknowledge that in the end this is shown through that they fight harder because of their pride... Though... Who wouldn't fight as hard as they ever could when facing death.)

Also if this were true then the last codex sure didn't follow their background as the only model with WS6 was the Emperor's Champion, though that's changed now of course.

And again: what I have read is that they prefer close quarters combat, not actual close combat as other chapters do.

I know there's often a big gap between rules and fluff, but back in 3rd edition Blood Angels did not get assault squads as troops, even the Flesh Tearers who had their own variant rules did not get assault squads as troops. Yet Black Templars did get bolt pistol & ccw equipped squads as Troops. And as of the most recent codices this is true again, though admittedly the importance of it is lessened by unbound and formations.

Based on that it seems a bit strange to me so say they prefer close range to close combat.. are you sure you're not getting mixed up with the Salamanders? They were the other chapter in Codex: Armageddon, and WERE decidedly close-range shooty rather than close combat.

Well as I lightly searched through the codices I got the picture that it was just short range but I see "close combat" and "melee" mentioned more and more so we can agree on that part.
Though I was looking for something about their actual skills... Or... Well... You can read my first post... What about some forced moves? Wouldn't forced charges match well? Well I guess that if Khorne Berzerkers don't have to charge then why should Initiates be forced to but if all other units aside? I like the former vow "Accept the challenge no matter the odds" and together with a forced challenge like Chaos Space Marines characters have to, some of the background is shown quite good.

If you fight in close combat for most of your life you are usually better then someone who occasionally fights in close combat, because of experience.
It's not enough to have an impact on the TT rules because the "resolution" for detail is very small.

I can see your logic, sure, I just haven't read or heard about Black Templars being better close combat fighters than other chapters.

I don't believe there is any one piece of fluff that states they are better in close combat than other chapters. It comes down to them choosing it over other methods of combat. Back in 4th edition, their EC was the only marine if I remember correctly with WS6. Not to mention their vows also added to their CC effectiveness when they would be striking down champions of chaos or demons on a 3+. So, that could be a good translation from table top to fluff on their combat skill.

The most recent fluff I've read (I'm an Ork player, so my info may be dated) made it pretty clear the Black Templars favor close combat. Some evidence:

- Black Templars don't use Devastator squads.
- They have Sword Brethren close combat experts.
- They were the first users of the Land Raider Crusader, a variant clearly intended for close range combat.
- As someone else mentioned, Black Templars could equip Tacticals with bolt pistol and close combat weapon in lieu of a boltgun.
- They forego shooty Scout Squads, putting Neophytes directly into tactical squads. This makes each tactical squad larger - more survivable as they close and more suitable for close combat action than a Codex tactical squad.
- The Emperor's Champion was originally a Black Templar-only special character. He was chosen from the ranks (so he could be any Marine). and was clearly equipped and specialized to fight challenges. Mind you, this has been retconned somewhat; all Chapters now get some Champion equivalent.

Clearly there is a preference for close combat here. That doesn't address whether they're 'better' in melee than other Space Marines.

So, ARE Black Templars better than other Chapters in close combat? While elite Sword Brethren are a step above most melee troops due to their equipment and training, and their Vows can help them get to and stick in melee... probably not.

- The Black Templars haven't won the Feast of Blades consistently against their Imperial Fist derived brethren. Keep in mind that the Fists and their progeny are typically known for stubbornness and siege warfare rather than close combat.
- Black Templar Tacticals are WS4, I4, 1A just like any other Space Marine.

Anyway, that's my take on Black Templars. They have an obvious melee preference. They have some equipment options that lean toward close combat (pistol and melee weapon v. boltgun), They have some specialized melee characters and units. But a baseline tactical-to-tactical comparison doesn't show the Black Templars as significantly better than other Chapters in melee.

Gotta love all those chains though.

My two teef.

Warboss Gorhack wrote:

- The Emperor's Champion was originally a Black Templar-only special character. He was chosen from the ranks (so he could be any Marine). and was clearly equipped and specialized to fight challenges. Mind you, this has been retconned somewhat; all Chapters now get some Champion equivalent.

The Emperor's Champion is still only for Black Templars - what kind of Champions do other chapters get?

Chaospling wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:

- The Emperor's Champion was originally a Black Templar-only special character. He was chosen from the ranks (so he could be any Marine). and was clearly equipped and specialized to fight challenges. Mind you, this has been retconned somewhat; all Chapters now get some Champion equivalent.

The Emperor's Champion is still only for Black Templars - what kind of Champions do other chapters get?

Command Squads have, at various points, been able to upgrade one member to a Company Champion by swapping his wargear for a power sword and combat shield.

Unlike the Emperor's Champion, who is a special snowflake, the Company Champion is just a veteran with a specialist rank - not entirely clear what he champions, though, since even in the Marine codexes I've read, they haven't been mentioned anywhere except in the Command Squad wargear options.

The Black Templars have been pretty consistently depicted as winning because they're willing to absorb any cost, not necessarily because they're better than the average Space Marine.

Hence why I nicknamed them the Dorito Marines years ago after the old Doritos slogan "Crunch all you want, we'll make more."

They're not quite the Orks of Space Marines. That (dis)honor goes to the World Eaters. But the Black Templars are close. More rage than sense. But, like the World Eaters, they have plenty of plot armor to shield them.

The Emperor's Champion is still only for Black Templars - what kind of Champions do other chapters get?

The Chapter Champion.

He's basically like the Emperor's Champion. Except he doesn't get picked because he was rolling on the floor hallucinating and speaking in tongues like some Pentacostal.

They don't have uncontrolled rage and aren't herp derp stupid, so I couldn't imagine them charging out of a defensive position every time the opportunity presents itself, especially if that would lead to massive tactical disadvantages.

Chaospling wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:

- The Emperor's Champion was originally a Black Templar-only special character. He was chosen from the ranks (so he could be any Marine). and was clearly equipped and specialized to fight challenges. Mind you, this has been retconned somewhat; all Chapters now get some Champion equivalent.

The Emperor's Champion is still only for Black Templars - what kind of Champions do other chapters get?

Deathwatch also get a champ. From what I have inferred they are basically the same as the Black Templar's champ.

Also he is often the guy who has had a weird dream at the eve of the battle.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

Chaospling wrote:

Warboss Gorhack wrote:

- The Emperor's Champion was originally a Black Templar-only special character. He was chosen from the ranks (so he could be any Marine). and was clearly equipped and specialized to fight challenges. Mind you, this has been retconned somewhat; all Chapters now get some Champion equivalent.

The Emperor's Champion is still only for Black Templars - what kind of Champions do other chapters get?

Deathwatch also get a champ. From what I have inferred they are basically the same as the Black Templar's champ.

Also he is often the guy who has had a weird dream at the eve of the battle.

the deathwatch champ IS the black templars champ.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unlike the Emperor's Champion, who is a special snowflake, the Company Champion is just a veteran with a specialist rank - not entirely clear what he champions, though, since even in the Marine codexes I've read, they haven't been mentioned anywhere except in the Command Squad wargear options.

There was a whole index astartes write-up for company champions. Their purpose is to protect their captain in battle while the captain focuses on issuing orders and maneuvers as well as act as the captain's second. Outside of combat, they're usually the ones responsible for representing the company in various combat rituals and mock battles, as well as honor duels if necessary.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Deathwatch also get a champ. From what I have inferred they are basically the same as the Black Templar's champ.

Also he is often the guy who has had a weird dream at the eve of the battle.

Inferred from where exactly? As the only description of them makes it clear they're the equal of a company champion in terms of combat prowess. The Emperor's Champion is really something else entirely.

jareddm wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unlike the Emperor's Champion, who is a special snowflake, the Company Champion is just a veteran with a specialist rank - not entirely clear what he champions, though, since even in the Marine codexes I've read, they haven't been mentioned anywhere except in the Command Squad wargear options.

There was a whole index astartes write-up for company champions. Their purpose is to protect their captain in battle while the captain focuses on issuing orders and maneuvers as well as act as the captain's second. Outside of combat, they're usually the ones responsible for representing the company in various combat rituals and mock battles, as well as honor duels if necessary.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Deathwatch also get a champ. From what I have inferred they are basically the same as the Black Templar's champ.

Also he is often the guy who has had a weird dream at the eve of the battle.

Inferred from where exactly? As the only description of them makes it clear they're the equal of a company champion in terms of combat prowess. The Emperor's Champion is really something else entirely.

one of the FFG DW sourcebooks has an Emperor's champion "prestige class". it's pretty clear that this is a black templar option, because there are black templars in the deathwatch

BrianDavion wrote:

jareddm wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unlike the Emperor's Champion, who is a special snowflake, the Company Champion is just a veteran with a specialist rank - not entirely clear what he champions, though, since even in the Marine codexes I've read, they haven't been mentioned anywhere except in the Command Squad wargear options.

There was a whole index astartes write-up for company champions. Their purpose is to protect their captain in battle while the captain focuses on issuing orders and maneuvers as well as act as the captain's second. Outside of combat, they're usually the ones responsible for representing the company in various combat rituals and mock battles, as well as honor duels if necessary.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Deathwatch also get a champ. From what I have inferred they are basically the same as the Black Templar's champ.

Also he is often the guy who has had a weird dream at the eve of the battle.

Inferred from where exactly? As the only description of them makes it clear they're the equal of a company champion in terms of combat prowess. The Emperor's Champion is really something else entirely.

one of the FFG DW sourcebooks has an Emperor's champion "prestige class". it's pretty clear that this is a black templar option, because there are black templars in the deathwatch

Actually there are two advanced specialties. One is the Emperor's Champion which, yes, is limited to Black Templar. However there is also the Deathwatch Champion which represents a particularly impressive martial combatant who is serving The Long Watch and is the equivalent of a company champion. The picture next to the Deathwatch Champion even shows the example is a Dark Angel.

Poly Ranger wrote:
They don't have uncontrolled rage and aren't herp derp stupid, so I couldn't imagine them charging out of a defensive position every time the opportunity presents itself, especially if that would lead to massive tactical disadvantages.

I dunno, the old Black Templars were pretty derpy. No Devastator squads, No Whirlwinds, no scouting units. Their preferred tactics were all based around frontal assaults, and they invented a Land Raider with no long ranged anti-armor capability.

It depends on which background you are talking about. They appear in a couple of codexes and BL books, but the question is why do they appear codexes.

For a long time they had only a couple of main appearances.

They were on a starter kit box cover: this one.

You can pretty much consider that box art "canon," since it is by the first art director at Citadel. You notice several things about it. One is that there are very many marines with bolters. Actually, while there are several marines with swords or close combat weapons, they seem like officers.

There is also this quote about them from codex: ultramarines, which lists them as a codex chapter:

"Created from the strong gene-seed of the Imperial Fists, this Chapter has proved its worth to the Imperium in a thousand or more wars. The chest eagle displays the company colour."


That was before they had an army list of their own.

You have to consider how they got one.

It was a campaign book, which sort of functioned as a model for fighting homebrew campaigns with idiosyncratic personal armies. It was third edition, when tactical squads mainly got to get out of a rhino and fire one entire bolt round per model, while units that won close combats could get enormous extra movement on sweeping advances that could also catapult them into additional rounds of combat. It had nothing to do with power, close combat armies were just more exciting to play.

My understanding from this information is that the smirking goon pictured in the Armageddon codex who converted and painted that original studio Black Templar army gave them new units based on what was fun/powerful in the rules at the time. That's how you got this:

. No Devastator squads, No Whirlwinds, no scouting units. Their preferred tactics were all based around frontal assaults, and they invented a Land Raider with no long ranged anti-armor capability

this terrible Land Raider that, if there were no game to 40k, no rules, just fluff, would never exist at all.

Of course, black templar players have some of the best, most interesting armies. I think they are a lot better than some of the less radical variants, the ones that are different colored tactical squads. I am very excited for the idea that the Black Templars codex should have actually absorbed the vanilla codex, and left DA and BA as the only codexes with conventional tactical squads and battle companies.

Poly Ranger wrote:
They don't have uncontrolled rage and aren't herp derp stupid, so I couldn't imagine them charging out of a defensive position every time the opportunity presents itself, especially if that would lead to massive tactical disadvantages.

Back when they had a codex (4th) to themselves, they did exactly that - a single casualty would infect the squad with such rage that they took a Leadership test and if they failed, they fell back as normal, but if they passed, they charged forwards like lunatics.

it was funny watching lascannons jump out of fortified firing positions to hit my Leman Russes with the butt end.

I've never understood the aversion people seem to have to accepting that close combat is what the BT do. The 4th edition Codex lists their preferred modes of attack as orbital insertion or armoured spearhead, because those are the two fastest ways to get into melee range. A Chapter whose sole reason for existing is to get into melee is going to be better at melee than a Chapter that is more well-rounded, otherwise the specialized Chapter is just plain inferior.

The fact that the Chapter was founded by the most skilled Astartes swordsman to have ever existed also sets the theme for what the Chapter is about: getting into melee, and then viciously killing the living daylights out of anyone there.

As for the forced movement, I kinda liked the drawback of Accept Any Challenge and Righteous Zeal, because it meant the army played differently than other Space Marines. There's not much point in taking pot-shots at a Crusader Squad if there's a risk that they'll get closer, but at the same time a clever opponent could, as you point out, get fire support squads out of position or draw in units closer so that they were vulnerable to countercharges. Some people say we didn't lose much flavour being folded into the SM book; I scoff at that. The one page of special rules that were in the 4th edition book made the army something other than Marines -1.