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A couple years ago I would have said no, but honestly with the current lore and GW's direction of the IP, the Imperium, or at least part of it, really is now the "good guys".

 Ailaros wrote:
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say tau. Go ask any chinese person what they think of "co-prosperity" and you'll see why the only difference between tau and the imperium is what language they choose to use in their propaganda.

Anyways, as said above, the only good guys in the galgaxy is the faction that you're a part of. The Imperium may be awful, but if you're a human it's your best shake at life. If you're eldar, you may live a life of aescetic slavery, but at least your soul isn't eaten. If you're orks, you live in a super-violent dystopia, but at least you're guaranteed to die doing what you love, etc. etc.

and it's worth noting that they deliberatly choose that loaded term. had they wanted a more politically neutral term that ment more or less the same thing there was, after all, the word "commonwealth" the fact that they choose a term indeliably tied to WW2 Imperial Japan was almost certinly intended to cast the Tau in a slightly sinister light

Yeah, generally the more vile destructive one's behavior, the more vague and higher-moral-sounding words they use to describe it. Everybody likes civil liberties, which is why they can use such a boring, technical term to describe it like "civil liberties".

Meanwhile, communists murdered more people than died in both world wars combined through starvation, and that was "international solidarity", millions thrown into forced labor prisons as "protection against bourgeois oppression". Meanwhile the nazis had their "final solution". The "new people" were those the khmer rouge murdered by the millions.

But no, a state-enforced policy of "greater good", especially on conquered peoples. That's definitely going to go well...

Tau like to say they're good. But they're about as good as Stalins Russia, one for all and all for Stalin. If you don't like it straight to the Gulag.

I don't see why people consider the Eldar anything else than good guys.

Like every entity, they put their own survival above that of others, that's far from unethical.

morgoth wrote:
I don't see why people consider the Eldar anything else than good guys.

Like every entity, they put their own survival above that of others, that's far from unethical.

The same could be said of the IoM and Tau. Would you call them good?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
I personally think Chaos are the morally strongest. Sure, they ARE Chaos, they feth up planets and all that, but they're not Space Nazi's, they're just influenced by the wrong religions.

that excuse holds for chaos but doesn't hold for the Imperium of man? psst your bias is showing
Honestly the IoM are hardly space nazis anyway (the IoM could never be that centralized even if they had to) and I think this is where people grow confused. the IoM is pretty lose handed on their people as a whole. worship the emperor, and contribute to society are really the only requirements. you also have the psyker round up, but there's more then sufficant evidance that it's the lesser of two evils. and THAT is what 40k is about. not good vs evil but "whom is the lesser evil" and the IoM for humanity at least proably IS the lesser evil. which is the terrifying thing.

I cannot quite agree with your view of the Imperium. It's not just worship the Emprah. It's worship the Tyrant of Terra in the right way, have the right genome, forego all ideas of individual thought, freedom (freedoms granted by your planet are of no consequence, when the imperium calls you are no more than a slave) and advancement (trust the toaster worshippers! ) and most important of all, pay your tithes. All of them, no matter what happens, even if your entire world starves. The Imperium is the very source of it's troubles and thanks to it's constant stagnation (and even regression in some areas) the ultimate doom of mankind. Of course, Chaos and Tyranidsare, if not checked, the imidiate doom of mankind so the lesser of two evils aspect might still be true.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I don't see why people consider the Eldar anything else than good guys.

Like every entity, they put their own survival above that of others, that's far from unethical.

The same could be said of the IoM and Tau. Would you call them good?

Not quite.

The Empire mistreats its citizens, the Tau brainwash theirs.

There's a world of difference between them and the Eldar.

Depends on your definition of good and evil. All factions tend to do horrible things and have evil characters in them. That being said you can still look at a faction as "good guys" who have to do lesser evils for the sake of a greater good. I.E. The Eldar remorselessly destroys an imperial colony/city because it has a chaotic relic or is falling under the sway of chaos. The eldar wont distinguish between loyalist and chaos corrupted when they attack. This can easily be seen as evil, especially by the imperium who may not have even known the chaos taint was present. It would just seem like a random attack. However to the eldar it may be a necessary evil with good outcomes such as saving countless lives among their own people and even saving more imperials than are lost in the attack.
Personally the eldar have always felt the closest to good guys in my mind, but I can at least see how people would call them evil. So yeah its mostly a matter of perception.

Redseer wrote:
Depends on your definition of good and evil. All factions tend to do horrible things and have evil characters in them. That being said you can still look at a faction as "good guys" who have to do lesser evils for the sake of a greater good. I.E. The Eldar remorselessly destroys an imperial colony/city because it has a chaotic relic or is falling under the sway of chaos. The eldar wont distinguish between loyalist and chaos corrupted when they attack. This can easily be seen as evil, especially by the imperium who may not have even known the chaos taint was present. It would just seem like a random attack. However to the eldar it may be a necessary evil with good outcomes such as saving countless lives among their own people and even saving more imperials than are lost in the attack.
Personally the eldar have always felt the closest to good guys in my mind, but I can at least see how people would call them evil. So yeah its mostly a matter of perception.

That's ridiculous.

The actions the Eldar undertake that do result in some members of the inferior races dying are always done for survival's sake.

There is nothing evil in sacrificing inferior races for survival, every good guy does it in every story ever.

morgoth wrote:


There is nothing evil in sacrificing inferior races for survival, every good guy does it in every story ever.

I must have missed this part in Romeo and Juliet.

Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Doesn't make them "good", I don't think we'd argue that just because you don't acknowledge a creature's sentience makes it okay to kill them willy-nilly.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

Actually, I think this kind of shows why you can't consider Orks or Nids "good guys". You can argue that they're just doing their natural thing, but then flip it around: is it evil to kill Nids or Orks? I'd argue "no", because their natural inclination is death and destruction, therefore killing them is basically self-defense.

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Oh, so they are like Nazis then?

Alcibiades wrote:

morgoth wrote:


There is nothing evil in sacrificing inferior races for survival, every good guy does it in every story ever.

I must have missed this part in Romeo and Juliet.

Do they not eat any meat in that play ?

Or drink wine ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Doesn't make them "good", I don't think we'd argue that just because you don't acknowledge a creature's sentience makes it okay to kill them willy-nilly.

If a human tries to not harm inferior beings such as other mammals and lower, isn't he being good ?

Because Eldar act exactly like that, they don't ever kill humans for no reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Eldar don't think you people don't matter.

They just understand that you're not *people*...

(CW Eldar would be LN at best, Orkz would be CN, and Nids could be either TN or LE, depending on the writer)

Oh, so they are like Nazis then?

They would be like Nazis, if they were genetically close to humans, and only different in culture.

In other words, they're as close to Nazis as you or me. (just in case, I'm not a fan of square mustaches or red armbands)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

Actually, I think this kind of shows why you can't consider Orks or Nids "good guys". You can argue that they're just doing their natural thing, but then flip it around: is it evil to kill Nids or Orks? I'd argue "no", because their natural inclination is death and destruction, therefore killing them is basically self-defense.

Well, Nids are like Sharks or Lions.

Do you feel that Sharks or Lions are bad ?

I wouldn't call them good either. Just neutral.

If you want a faction that believes it is good, then Tau, Eldar and the Imperium are right there. If you're lookinf for an actually morally upright faction, the previous three probably encountered it and destroyed it.

morgoth wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Good is a point of view, Anakin.

I thought I was in the wrong forum when I read that

Everyone is a good guy. Except in the eyes of the enemy.
Only chaos is really bad, and even then, they're (subjectively) happy as they are.

Actually, I think this kind of shows why you can't consider Orks or Nids "good guys". You can argue that they're just doing their natural thing, but then flip it around: is it evil to kill Nids or Orks? I'd argue "no", because their natural inclination is death and destruction, therefore killing them is basically self-defense.

Well, Nids are like Sharks or Lions.

Do you feel that Sharks or Lions are bad ?

I wouldn't call them good either. Just neutral.

IMHO there is a pretty big difference between a shark/lion and a Tyranid. Earth's predators tend to be very limited in their ranges (eg, sharks are stuck in specific patches of the ocean) and numbers. The level of destruction wrought by all of the earth's predators compared to even a single hive fleet is an astronomical difference. Not to mention that us, as humans, are rarely actually threatened by these creatures, whereas Tyranids and Orks actively pursue everything to kill them.

Either way though, whether they're "neutral" or not, the point I was making is that you can't really consider them the "good guys" by any means. Whether they intend harm or not, they aren't exactly in a position to be considered the "heroes". Narratively, they're meant to be kind of one-dimensional hordes to be overcome.

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

Heil the Emperor!

 Matthew wrote:
I personally think Chaos are the morally strongest. Sure, they ARE Chaos, they feth up planets and all that, but they're not Space Nazi's, they're just influenced by the wrong religions.

Right, they're Space Objectivists. Which is, in the balance, worse.

SALAMANDERS only good thing in the Galaxy you see them and wave they will wave back I guarantee it

I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

 nwns wrote:
Tyranids

Exalted, I don't laugh near often enough, thanks.

Thousand Sons are the good guys of course...

Just as a sidenote...marines killing everyone and everything? Xerox yeah but. Any chapters protect the civilians quite Heavy Salamanders for example

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.
Basically theyre on the same footing as the Imperium, who exterminate any xenos presence, because they too only care about their respective race.
And the Tau... they have been known to wipe whole planets in order to recolonize them with Tau. Their system would be similar to if, say, communist China begin the systematic extermination of the Mongolians in order to colonize Mongolia with proper Communist ideals.
So everyone sucks.

Oh, yeh, and the Tyranids? I think theyre closer to locusts, not lions.

Tau cannot be analogized with communism because they expressly go against communist ideals. Communism seeks to create a classless society. The conflict of the classes is what has caused all of the conflict in the past, and what shall cause conflict in the future. Once classes are removed, there will no longer be conflict. By distinguishing classes you are defining people on what they have and what they do not have. People will then seek to take what they do not have by taking from those that have. Those that have, will attempt to secure their position via a system of governance. According to the lore the ethereals manipulate the tau species via pheromones, and crafted a the system of governance that makes the species complacent. They have only convinced the people that they have a defined purpose, and a way with which to achieve that purpose. The purpose that they the people have been convinced of is then the way whereby the ethereals continue to accrue and hold onto power.

TLDR: not communists they are manipulated into believing they have a "just" system.

 Jollydevil wrote:
I would think that the Eldar are far from being "the good guys". Essentially, they manipulate pawns to their own advantage, for the survival of their species. They couldn't care less if a million humans were killed to save one Eldar.

Would you sacrifice a million rats to save one human?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
The Imperium of Man. To hell with anyone else.

Yay, space nazis!

The Imperium aren't Nazis. They most closely resemble the USSR under Stalin's rule, probably why 40K is so popular in Russia.

Their fetish about genetical (racial) purity and the constant (if in the imperial case somewhat justified) scaremongering about outside influences certainly gives them a nazi vibe.
Although it could also be argued that both forms of totalitarism (that is, nazism and stalinism) have more in common than the proponents of both would ever have acknowledged.
Of course, being the worst of both worlds makes the Imperium even more grimdark without even having to add anymore skulls to the setting \o/

 Opera wrote:
Thousand Sons are the good guys of course...

Exalted!