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 Kosake wrote:
Orks.
Orks are mainly fighting for the fun and are least prone to speciism or anything that qualifies as genuine evil.

Tyranids as well. They just want to feed and evolve. Once you get past that whole mindset of "eating civilizations and stripping planets of all their biomass is evil"-restriction, they are no worse than any carnivore, they just have the better tools.

Are any of those the typical white knights in shining armor? No. But that would not fit in a true grimdark setting anyways, so chaotic neutral is the best you'll get.

I'd like to see typical white knights in shining armor running around eating and evolving.

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

It wouldnt work anyways. It would be like giving up heroine, cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes, and meth at the same time. The Eldar basically treat pain as a drug.

 Jollydevil wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

It wouldnt work anyways. It would be like giving up heroine, cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes, and meth at the same time. The Eldar basically treat pain as a drug.

but it's much more nuanced than that. The deldar feed to stave off she who thirsts... it's essentially their answer, as a result of the fall, to the eldar spirit stones and infinity circuits, and there's no telling if the commoraghans would even be compatible with these advances, especially in the light of their common lack of psionic capabilities of any type. It's not like any of us giving up a vice, but food. Lelith Hesperax uses no chemical enhancement, but still requires captured slaves or other victims in order to feed. Pair this with the haemonculi class, and it becomes yet more complex, as many of them are the ones holding the marker on some truly faustian debts. Commoragh would fall into mayhem if any sort of mass defection were to begin.

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

yet again many people have trouble sticking to diets even when they KNOW that "eating a giant poutine (Fries with gravy and cheese curds on it. Canadian cusine at it's finest) and super greasy burger every day" could lead to a heart attack

Dronze wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TWilkins wrote:
Dark Eldar are doing what they love too... Which is also terrible... But at least their stuff allows them to live forever and stops them from suffering eternal torment.
I don't think orks have that excuse.

Dark Eldar don't need to torture people for the LULZ to sustain themselves. They could easily just drop their lifestyle and join a Corsair crew or even reintegrate into a Craftworld. Instead the Dark Eldar do what the Dark Eldar do for fun and laughs.

giving up your entire lifestyle though isn't exactly easy. most people have eneugh trouble sticking to a diet for crying out loud.

Except their lifestyle has a very large chance of getting them killed. Not to mention that Eldar aren't materialistic.

It wouldnt work anyways. It would be like giving up heroine, cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes, and meth at the same time. The Eldar basically treat pain as a drug.

but it's much more nuanced than that. The deldar feed to stave off she who thirsts... it's essentially their answer, as a result of the fall, to the eldar spirit stones and infinity circuits, and there's no telling if the commoraghans would even be compatible with these advances, especially in the light of their common lack of psionic capabilities of any type. It's not like any of us giving up a vice, but food. Lelith Hesperax uses no chemical enhancement, but still requires captured slaves or other victims in order to feed. Pair this with the haemonculi class, and it becomes yet more complex, as many of them are the ones holding the marker on some truly faustian debts. Commoragh would fall into mayhem if any sort of mass defection were to begin.

Dark Eldar are compatible with the Tears of Isha, it was a plot point of Path of the Eldar. There's a risk of dying in the process of rebirth, but it's a small gamble compared to gaining the protection of the webway.

However there is also no reason to not simply join the Corsairs, as there are numerous Dark Eldar involved in their numbers who do not need to practice their former sadism to protect their souls.

But eventually the Corsairs will die. In which case theyre screwed.
Commoragh citizens get far more protection from she who thirsts, from cloning to power from pain.

Firstly, I think we need to define what we mean by "good guys". Personally, I would say that sacrifice of self for the benefit of others would be the foremost quality required.
If we accept this definition, we can already dismiss many of the absurd suggestions in this thread such as Orks and Tyranids. Orks are Chaotic Evil. The strongest rules, they regularly murder each other and their "economy" is based on slavery. Tyranids are willing to consume all life to keep itself going. No self sacrifice ever. Just kill, eat, breed, repeat. That anyone would suggest them as "good guys" is mind boggling.
The IoM as an institution is a horrid, tyrannical dystopia none of us would like to live in. Same for the Tau Empire where classes are ridgidly enforced.

As far as factions are concerned, the Farsight enclaves, with their democratic rule and looser classes are the closest to a mostly good faction. Some Space Marine chapters could also potentially be good guys, such as the Salamamders, Lamentors and even Ultramarines.

As for individuals, there are many examples of good guys in the fluff. Many have been mentionned in previous posts and many more can be found if you look for them.

Yes, there are individual "good guys". No faction is a "good guy".

i'd have to say tau . Everyone else gives the option to die , tau at least give the option to join . Good guys by default lol

kambien wrote:
i'd have to say tau . Everyone else gives the option to die , tau at least give the option to join . Good guys by default lol

but only for a generation... remember, they sterilize their human inclusions.

I have yet to read a good reason why Craftworld Eldar cannot be the good guys.

morgoth wrote:
I have yet to read a good reason why Craftworld Eldar cannot be the good guys.

Craftworld Eldar are not "good guys" because they are in it for themselves. They care not for any other race unless it adds to their chances for survival. They barely care for the other craftworlds.

Noc

Nocturus wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I have yet to read a good reason why Craftworld Eldar cannot be the good guys.

Craftworld Eldar are not "good guys" because they are in it for themselves. They care not for any other race unless it adds to their chances for survival. They barely care for the other craftworlds.

Noc

That's preposterous.

CWE are not just in it for themselves, they're in it for their CW and even the Eldar kind as a whole for those who are aware of it (there is no mention of Eldar ever tricking other Eldar for example), which is just as altruistic as Jesus himself.

They care not for any race but they don't kill them needlessly, which is tons more than humans with regard to inferior species from cow to fly.

Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

Eldar because they are the true children of the old ones.
Everything else is just specs of star dust and warp and therefore not on the same plane of existance...

i always look at it like "what faction would i prefere to live in being my normal 'umie self?".

i always come up with "might as well join tau".

Dronze wrote:

kambien wrote:
i'd have to say tau . Everyone else gives the option to die , tau at least give the option to join . Good guys by default lol

but only for a generation... remember, they sterilize their human inclusions.

... If said inclusions make an armed revolt and are not willing to live by the Tau rules, in which place the Imperium would've have killed them, their family, their pla.et and made them an example by torturing them and making them into acro-flagellants.

I also only described in Dawn of War, so might be/might not be cobsidered part of the canon.

 Argive wrote:
Eldar because they are the true children of the old ones.
Everything else is just specs of star dust and warp and therefore not on the same plane of existance...

Aren't Orks also created by the Old Ones?

 ectoplastic wrote:
Firstly, I think we need to define what we mean by "good guys". Personally, I would say that sacrifice of self for the benefit of others would be the foremost quality required.
If we accept this definition, we can already dismiss many of the absurd suggestions in this thread such as Orks and Tyranids. Orks are Chaotic Evil. The strongest rules, they regularly murder each other and their "economy" is based on slavery. Tyranids are willing to consume all life to keep itself going. No self sacrifice ever. Just kill, eat, breed, repeat. That anyone would suggest them as "good guys" is mind boggling.
The IoM as an institution is a horrid, tyrannical dystopia none of us would like to live in. Same for the Tau Empire where classes are ridgidly enforced.

As far as factions are concerned, the Farsight enclaves, with their democratic rule and looser classes are the closest to a mostly good faction. Some Space Marine chapters could also potentially be good guys, such as the Salamamders, Lamentors and even Ultramarines.

As for individuals, there are many examples of good guys in the fluff. Many have been mentionned in previous posts and many more can be found if you look for them.

This is exactly what I have been saying this whole time... haven't Eldar been known to self-sacrifice to stop greater evil/threats? At the very least, becoming an Avatar requires self-sacrifice.

NauticalKendall wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Eldar because they are the true children of the old ones.
Everything else is just specs of star dust and warp and therefore not on the same plane of existance...

Aren't Orks also created by the Old Ones?

They weren't finished, so they hardly qualify as "true children".

 ectoplastic wrote:
Firstly, I think we need to define what we mean by "good guys". Personally, I would say that sacrifice of self for the benefit of others would be the foremost quality required.
If we accept this definition, we can already dismiss many of the absurd suggestions in this thread such as Orks and Tyranids. Orks are Chaotic Evil. The strongest rules, they regularly murder each other and their "economy" is based on slavery. Tyranids are willing to consume all life to keep itself going. No self sacrifice ever. Just kill, eat, breed, repeat. That anyone would suggest them as "good guys" is mind boggling.
The IoM as an institution is a horrid, tyrannical dystopia none of us would like to live in. Same for the Tau Empire where classes are ridgidly enforced.

As far as factions are concerned, the Farsight enclaves, with their democratic rule and looser classes are the closest to a mostly good faction. Some Space Marine chapters could also potentially be good guys, such as the Salamamders, Lamentors and even Ultramarines.

As for individuals, there are many examples of good guys in the fluff. Many have been mentionned in previous posts and many more can be found if you look for them.

have an exalt!

No geopolitical power will ever be good. It's simply not feasible. States act out of self interest, and some are more willing to extend aid to alleviate suffering or correct injustice at times, but war is always about power and control. Some regimes are more horrific than others, but you simply cannot be involved in a struggle for survival and be good as a body politic. (total tangent: the Rodenberry era Federation might be closest to an example from fiction)

So, no, massive collectives such as the IoM, the Tau Empire, and the Craftworld Eldar are probably not "good."

AS you mention, though, "good guys" is different from "good." Good guys are the heros, the protagonist. They are morally superior, they are the ones we relate to and root for. It's a very relative thing. Look at movies. In the "longest yard" the good guys are convicts. In the Godfather the "good guys" are a violent crime family.

That all said, I think that there are some factions that are closer to a true "good guy" than others. All jokes about the IoM aside, the Space Marines are actually pretty impressive from a moral standpoint. They are suprerior in every way to the normal humans they serve, and many (if not most) chapters take their role as the protector of mankind very seriously. They are, in my opinion, very much the good guys most of the time.

 Matthew wrote:
Tau are space commies

Which makes them good, right?

 Polonius wrote:

So, no, massive collectives such as the IoM, the Tau Empire, and the Craftworld Eldar are probably not "good."

lmao

Massive Collectives such as the Craftworld Eldar.

If they were Massive Collectives, they'd still be running the fething Galaxy, there'd be no Chaos no Necrons and no Tyranids around.

Litcheur wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
Tau are space commies

Which makes them good, right?

Tau are collectivists, not really communists. There's no hint at the class warfare that communism is based on.

If anything, with it's strictly defined "castes," it ignores a huge tenant of communism. It's closer to the utopia envisioned by Plato in the Republic, to the extent that I'd guess it directly influenced the Tau fluff. (that the tau castes are all named after classical elements is noteworthy a well).

If you see Tau as a good guy or not depends a lot on how you view the role of the state. From a more Eastern or even ancient Western view, the role of the State is to protect the people, and to allow for the overall benefit. In this role, the Tau Empire is much calmer, more productive, and better for ones health than nearly anywhere else in the galaxy. However, the Neoliberalism that has dominated the west, most notably in Northern and WEstern Europe plus the US, is that the State should be limited, and that it should allow indviduals to seek their own path.

For most of the posters here, the Tau viewpoint is so different from what you want out of a State as to become "other" and quickly to become "evil." For many people, the downsides to the Tau Empire (little social mobility or personal freedom) are no different from their own existence, and they'd see the stability and safety of it as a good thing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

So, no, massive collectives such as the IoM, the Tau Empire, and the Craftworld Eldar are probably not "good."

lmao

Massive Collectives such as the Craftworld Eldar.

If they were Massive Collectives, they'd still be running the fething Galaxy, there'd be no Chaos no Necrons and no Tyranids around.

The Eldar are obviously greatly diminished, but a couple of dozen soveriegn states, each with an enormous amount of military might? That's a pretty potent force in galactic geopolitics, and not a completely homogenous one.

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

Not having a past you need to redeem in the first place? I think that makes them more of an "anti-good" guy. Not really good but they aren't the bad guys either.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

Not having a past you need to redeem in the first place? I think that makes them more of an "anti-good" guy. Not really good but they aren't the bad guys either.

Also keep in mind, the DA aren't trying so much to redeem their past as they are trying to hide it.

Noc