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 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

BA are clearly good guys.

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

The person who led the betrayal was Lion's second hand man, Luther, who was tainted by Chaos. When he came to, he realized what he had done and was put into mental shock by the realization that he had betrayed his own friend who was like a brother to him and the Imperium. I would hardly say they betrayed the Imperium consciously.

Second, I doubt the Inquisitors would view either secret as safe and would probably purge both Chapters.

Tau are the good guys... why can't commies be good guys? Everyone can admit that if perfect communism were possible amongst people, it would be the best system

Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

As to good guys in 40k, there are good individuals, certainly. Ragnar Blackmane jumps to mind, but all the factions are corrupt at the top. Imperium is a totalitarian theocracy centered around an unwilling god, the Eldar can't let go of their empire and help give everyone a better tomorrow, Tau use hormones as a form of mind control so well Hollywood is blue with envy, Orks are the football team I went out for once, only green and with less female companionship, Necrons are just nasty, Chaos is Chaos, and the squats are busy delving the bowels of Hivefleet Chambers. So no, no good official factions with a Codex. Nids are just animals, for the most part.

Although, yes, plenty of marine chapters are nice to civvies, Farsight's a bro, and Saim-Hann has its moments. If you're loose with your headcannon, 40k has loads of good guys trying their hardest to play the cards they've been dealt, and they'd have a great hand if they were playing the right game, but in the grim darkness of the distant future there is only war (I can't say that war's as fun a card game as Frustration, or as full of choices ).

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

The person who led the betrayal was Lion's second hand man, Luther, who was tainted by Chaos. When he came to, he realized what he had done and was put into mental shock by the realization that he had betrayed his own friend who was like a brother to him and the Imperium. I would hardly say they betrayed the Imperium consciously.

Second, I doubt the Inquisitors would view either secret as safe and would probably purge both Chapters.

I still don't think that qualifies them as "good guys" in the whole scheme of things.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Quite a few SM chapters are good guys:
Sallies
UM
White Consuls
Iron Snakes
And even BA, everyone forgets how often they go out of their way for the little guys because they're the hot tempered vampires.

I think the DA should be included in that list. What's more "good" than trying to redeem your own past?

when you kill your own allies to hide your secrect. you're not "good"

Their "own guys" turned to Chaos, and should be purged. And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

I don't think a genetic flaw that can't be helped and betraying the very Imperium you were created to protect, equate with one another.

The person who led the betrayal was Lion's second hand man, Luther, who was tainted by Chaos. When he came to, he realized what he had done and was put into mental shock by the realization that he had betrayed his own friend who was like a brother to him and the Imperium. I would hardly say they betrayed the Imperium consciously.

Second, I doubt the Inquisitors would view either secret as safe and would probably purge both Chapters.

I still don't think that qualifies them as "good guys" in the whole scheme of things.

So people unwillingly forced to betray their own are evil? I don't think that's fair.

Never said that, I just said that I don't think they're good guys.

 jreilly89 wrote:
So people unwillingly forced to betray their own are evil? I don't think that's fair.

It's 40k, nothing's fair.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So people unwillingly forced to betray their own are evil? I don't think that's fair.

It's 40k, nothing's fair.

Ask Eve what god did when the serpent "forced" her to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It may not have been "fair," but she and adam still broke the rules.

As long as we are dealing with absolutes, there are no good guys in 40k. Plenty of people that do horrible things for "good" reasons, but no good guys.

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

Willing to sacrifice a billion humans to save 1 eldar, but also willing to murder 1 twin so that a wraithknight has a pilot. No, they are not good guys.

Noc

Nocturus wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

Willing to sacrifice a billion humans to save 1 eldar, but also willing to murder 1 twin so that a wraithknight has a pilot. No, they are not good guys.

Noc

Humans are to Eldar what rats and cows are to Humans.

Which I'm pretty sure every human good guy has had no trouble sacrificing billions to save one of his kin.

The Eldar don't murder a twin to stuff it in the WK.

The bond is so
strong that should one o f the twins die before the other, the
surviving brother or sister will often fade away in sympathy.
Sometimes, when such a division has taken place, the
surviving twin will sacrifice what is left of his life to pilot a
Wraithknight. The essence o f the dead twin is transferred
into the large spirit stone in the chest of the giant ghost
warrior, whilst the surviving sibling enters a near-permanent
batde trance within the fitted cavity behind its breastplate.

That doesn't sound like murdering a twin to get a pilot for a war machine to me.

Okay, let's get something straight - the definition of 'good'. Good is the deed that serves the most well and hurts the least, as that must mean that that act was the best possible action you could take., at that given moment and situation. To do that 'good', you must realise exactly what your goal is, as all beings strive to do the best thing for themselves, and often also others, as supporting community supports all parts of it, including you. To realise what you have to do to get the best result for the most people, you have to find you base needs, your actual natural need at that point, and not let expectations, illusions and fear of various thibgs, as these will lead you to act differebtly, and so not achieve good, but harm others and youraelf, because you aren't acting out of truth.

This means that, when it comes down to it, the only Faction that follows its core needs and answers those with truthful acts are... The Imperium. In the state and time the Imperium is in, it is the best possible thing to happen for the human race. It knows what its need is, survival and only survival, and acts accordingly, so the most people get the best life they can. They will willingly and remorselessly destroy whole sectors, if that sector could threaten survival of the Imperium, because, if the veil and illusion of moral held them back, it would ultimately mean that the main goal and need of the Imperium - survival - wouldn't be achieved. When everything is dogma and religion is absolute, its because it forces the populace to behave in a way, that supports the main goal in the end. Thats what the Imperium has done, and why, though nightmarish and terrible, the Imperium is the ultimate state in current circumstance. It has removed morals, ethics, free will and other things, that may remove us from the terrible truth of our main goal as a species - that we're only here to survive, and nothing else.

This is basically why 40K is so absorbing. In real life, we're in a situation where life is so good that we can ignore our basest need of survival, because our governments and our race has agreed to not endanger it universally, so we can take to other things, and develop ethics and morals based on the idea that all human life has a worth beyond the physical. 40K doesn't have that. It's a time where only the basest of needs can be fullfilled, or should be, because of how hostile and violent life is in the galaxy. And so, in desperation and in the pursute of the best possible action, the Imperium looked deeply within our human minds and our collective soul, and removed everything superficial and chose to go for the goal, and not ponder on the means to do so.

The Imperium is the best possible state in the 40.000 millenium, and one, that has pierced humanity and found the basest programming within us, realised it and made a state solely made to execute that programming, for the good of the entire race. That's what makes 40K grimdark - that the Imperium is the most human and selfreflecting of all possible states ever.

Also, Socratarian philosphy ho!

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Okay, let's get something straight - the definition of 'good'. Good is the deed that serves the most well and hurts the least, as that must mean that that act was the best possible action you could take., at that given moment and situation. To do that 'good', you must realise exactly what your goal is, as all beings strive to do the best thing for themselves, and often also others, as supporting community supports all parts of it, including you. To realise what you have to do to get the best result for the most people, you have to find you base needs, your actual natural need at that point, and not let expectations, illusions and fear of various thibgs, as these will lead you to act differebtly, and so not achieve good, but harm others and youraelf, because you aren't acting out of truth.

This means that, when it comes down to it, the only Faction that follows its core needs and answers those with truthful acts are...

The Imperium, but also the Eldars, and Tau, and…

morgoth wrote:

Nocturus wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

Willing to sacrifice a billion humans to save 1 eldar, but also willing to murder 1 twin so that a wraithknight has a pilot. No, they are not good guys.

Noc

Humans are to Eldar what rats and cows are to Humans.

Which I'm pretty sure every human good guy has had no trouble sacrificing billions to save one of his kin.

The Eldar don't murder a twin to stuff it in the WK.

The bond is so
strong that should one o f the twins die before the other, the
surviving brother or sister will often fade away in sympathy.
Sometimes, when such a division has taken place, the
surviving twin will sacrifice what is left of his life to pilot a
Wraithknight. The essence o f the dead twin is transferred
into the large spirit stone in the chest of the giant ghost
warrior, whilst the surviving sibling enters a near-permanent
batde trance within the fitted cavity behind its breastplate.

That doesn't sound like murdering a twin to get a pilot for a war machine to me.

This sure does though. From the same page in the book also.

As the end of days approaches and instances of birth become ever more eclipsed by reports of death, fewer and fewer twins are born upon each craftworld. ... As unsettling as it may be, it is whispered that some crafworld councils are removing the option of choice from such individuals. Desperate times call for desperate measures, after all -- should a pair of twins be too atached to the light of the living world, it is possible to steer them toward a darker fate.

Let's inject a bit of Aristotle morality in this thread for the laugh. In his system of morality, there is no such thing has good or evil these two concepts fail to represent reallity and thus must be put aside for better concepts to understand what is positive or negative in a moral world. Aristotle decided that those two concepts would be lack and excess. If you lack something it's bad, but if you have something in excess it's bad to. The key to positive behavior is balance. For exemple killing humen is not bad. The circomstances and the way you kill them will either make you balanced or excessively violent. On the other side of the scale if you refuse to kill or harm everybody, maybe you lack violence and thus are wrong (if you don't kill a rapist about to kill its victim you are defenitly lacking something).

So who is good with that in mind I would go on a limb and say Craftworld and Exodite Eldars, most of the Imperial Institutions beside the Imperial Guard and the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Tau and maybe some Necron factions.

morgoth wrote:

 3AcresAndATau wrote:
Well, pure Marxian Communism restricts freedom of religion far beyond reason, not that I really want a debate on the subject, just sayin' that like every system man has come up with it has fundamental flaws.

Freedom of Religion, two words combined that can't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Once again, the Eldar are the only good guys in the 40K universe and nobody has an argument against that that wouldn't disqualify Jesus too.

So Jesus willingly sacrificed millions of other, inteligent beings to safe a few of his own followers? Or did he ruthlessly hunt down people who, without any mistake of their own, settled on places
he claimed thousand of years ago? Face it, the Eldar are quite often arrogant dicks, so full of themselfs that logical decisionmaking and reason (like, actualy telling people that threat XY is approaching instead of antagonising everyone without 500 lightyears by what appears to be acts of random aggression) tend to escape them. To be honest, i wouldn't want to have them any other way
Of course, since the craftworlds all have different cultures, values and ways to solve problems, it is hardly possible to attach one label to all craftworld Eldar.

So, for good guys? The Interex. trough cooperation and reason they managed to create a stable and scientificaly advanced society. Since this is 40k they were most likely crushed by Space Adolf and friends.

I think Space Arnold or Space Judas got them first.

 jreilly89 wrote:

And as I recall, the BA have their own secret, no?

They go full-dracula when drink too much body fluids.