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Hi guys

I'm trying to get back into fantasy, but I don't know which army I'd like to play. And I was wondering if as a community you'd be so kind as to help me choose.

The army I'm after is I suppose able to make a 'deathstar' if I wanted. Not because I want an uber strong unit, but I just like toying with the idea.

A love strong magic casters. I suppose that's always my 'go to' in an army. Is the caster.

I do like quite big monsters to play about with. Just because I like to model and paint them. I love the new vermin lord. Bordering on one of my favourite models.

And I suppose general pros and cons to an army. If you guys could help me out if greatly appreciate it. Thanks

I'd say Lizardmen, they can do all those things, death stars, strong magic (I mean hello Slann...) Monsters out the wazzoo.
Dwarves don't have any magic or monsters, but strong units.
High elves have strong magic and abilities for death star units (with the most broken banner in the game) but no real monsters apart from dragons and phoenixes.
Skaven sort of have death star units (eg giant thing of Stormvermin but they're like dwarf warrior star really... if they go toe to toe with GW Dwarves they'd loose.
Pretty good magic, a few monsters, but if you want a solid good mix of these three, Lizardmen is the definite way to go.

Thanks for the quick response. Really appreciate it are lizardmen fairly competitive? How does their deathstar normally look? And what makes slaan such good casters?

Do lizardmen have some nifty rules or are then an army of, what you see is what you get? Are the lizardmen monsters fairly nasty?

Sorry for the questions. I'm fairly new to WHFB, well this edition anyway. So I'm unaware of shenanigans armies can pull. I love the look of the carnasaur though. Looks brill! And I know about the high elves banner. But to me it seems more of a taboo. I'd hate to win using such an item. Thank you again

Well I don't know much about them, having never owned them (once painted about 5000pts of them in under a month for a commission...yeah no)...
Since I don't know much about the little things, I'll just copy and paste from somewhere that does.

A Slann is a powerful Level 4 caster, with an in-built 4+ ward save, that can be both general and BSB at the same time, has the ability to ignore terrain and is never considered on foot while still being infantry, five wounds, the ability to swap spells with other Slann and to cast trough friendly Skink Priest models. He also has a lot of synergy Temple Guard: units joined by a Slann are Stubborn, Immune to Psychology, and allow him to auto-pass Look Out Sir!, and since he is fielded in the second rank rather than the first he is never going to be involved in actual combat and can cast spells even while his unit is busy fighting in melee. Also a choice of disciplines helps to make him one of the best generic wizards of the game.

I am not sure how tier Lizardmen are, it's not 7th for them anymore, but I hardly think they're bottom.
They've never been below average. I'd give them an above average, just by all that they can do.
They are a great army, rules wise and can do a lot of different things, really one of the best choices for a beginner, I think.

High Elves. The magic book lets them re-roll casting dice, and they get +1 to cast high magic.
Death Star is pretty easy with a few units (dragon princes or white lions, either with banner of the world dragon).
Monsters you get the phoenix which is totally awesome, or just dragons, which you get a few flavors of.
If your area is playing end times, you can do combined elves and add treemen, hydras and kharibdss to the monster list.

Lizardmen get an average magic phase now. The Slann doesn't get anything special to help him get spells off. Better lines of sight, hiding in the 2nd rank, but no casting bonuses. I've been magically out-gunned by empire wizards repeatedly.

Again thank you for your responses.

It's such a difficult decision to make! I know high elves are supposedly really really good. But I don't know if that's appealing to me or not. I don't mind being the underdog. But I would like a magic advantage. One thing that does bother me is that my friend collects wood elves. And he seems to think they're better then high elves on every level. He thinks his high magic is better. His fast cav is better. His shooting is better. And without my knowledge of the books it's rather disappointing. Apparently he has a character that has healing arrows that's on a huge dragon! :/

But I suppose where high elves have greater offensive mages, they don't have the support the lizardmen have? My only issue with lizardmen being so 'beginner friendly' is I'd get bored of them quickly :/

 Andy140491 wrote:
Again thank you for your responses.

It's such a difficult decision to make! I know high elves are supposedly really really good. But I don't know if that's appealing to me or not. I don't mind being the underdog. But I would like a magic advantage. One thing that does bother me is that my friend collects wood elves. And he seems to think they're better then high elves on every level. He thinks his high magic is better. His fast cav is better. His shooting is better. And without my knowledge of the books it's rather disappointing. Apparently he has a character that has healing arrows that's on a huge dragon! :/

But I suppose where high elves have greater offensive mages, they don't have the support the lizardmen have? My only issue with lizardmen being so 'beginner friendly' is I'd get bored of them quickly :/

There's several different builds you can do with Lizardmen, which is why I like them.
If I had to do them, I'd do a horde skink army... with dinosaurs to taste lol

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Andy140491 wrote:
Again thank you for your responses.

It's such a difficult decision to make! I know high elves are supposedly really really good. But I don't know if that's appealing to me or not. I don't mind being the underdog. But I would like a magic advantage. One thing that does bother me is that my friend collects wood elves. And he seems to think they're better then high elves on every level. He thinks his high magic is better. His fast cav is better. His shooting is better. And without my knowledge of the books it's rather disappointing. Apparently he has a character that has healing arrows that's on a huge dragon! :/

But I suppose where high elves have greater offensive mages, they don't have the support the lizardmen have? My only issue with lizardmen being so 'beginner friendly' is I'd get bored of them quickly :/

There's several different builds you can do with Lizardmen, which is why I like them.
If I had to do them, I'd do a horde skink army... with dinosaurs to taste lol

I love my lizards, don't get me wrong. But the magic phase is average at best now, and if somebody posts they really want a strong magic phase and are drawn to wizards, I'd say don't go lizards.
Skaven are a decent choice. Very solid magic phase, very, very good lores or magic. Great monster, and a few other big center piece models. Death star is possible, but not to the same level as other armies.

As for the wood vs high match up, I'd put my money on the high elves. Chariots are pretty good in this edition, and so are warmachines. Wood elves don't get either.

-Matt

So high elves are still sounding quite promising

Thank you all by the way for all your input. I'm listening and debating each and everyone's input, so its really helpful.

What makes High elves top tier? And what makes their magic so potent? Do they have decent melee units? And what does their deathstar comprise of?

Is there any other army that rivals their magic phase?

High Elves or Lizardmen.

Skaven and Dwarves are right out. Skaven don't really have a deathstar unit, and dwarves have no magic and no big monsters.

High Elves and Lizardmen are both strong armies.


As for magic, Lizardmen have the strongest magic phase. Slann are the best wizards in the game. High Elves are also strong, but Lizards beat them by just a little.

 Grey Templar wrote:
High Elves or Lizardmen.

Skaven and Dwarves are right out. Skaven don't really have a deathstar unit, and dwarves have no magic and no big monsters.

High Elves and Lizardmen are both strong armies.


As for magic, Lizardmen have the strongest magic phase. Slann are the best wizards in the game. High Elves are also strong, but Lizards beat them by just a little.

Is there any reason why you think Lizardmen has the best magic phase? Do slaans get any bonuses to casting like High elves? High elves also have the book of Hoeth?

Slann have a bunch of upgrades they can purchase to make their magic phase better. Like Loremaster.

Slann also have the benefit of being able to have the general and BSB be the same model.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Slann have a bunch of upgrades they can purchase to make their magic phase better. Like Loremaster.

Slann also have the benefit of being able to have the general and BSB be the same model.

Thankyou Are their upgrades really that good? Aren't they quite overcosted?

They're expensive, but well worth it. Yes they are that good.

Its definitely Swaying me. Its just hard making a choice between two armies. I'm leaning more and more towards Lizardmen. I just think they're cooler. But if i chose High elves i'd learn to like them. Either way i think both armies seem to have strong magic.

Why do some people think Lizardmen have just an average magic phase now in your opinion?

 Andy140491 wrote:

Why do some people think Lizardmen have just an average magic phase now in your opinion?

No bonus to cast.

High elves get +1 to cast, and the ability to re-roll casting dice. They have access to the loremaster for a ton of signature spells.
Dark elves get +1 to cast, and a character that adds another D3 to casting attempts, and a signature spell that makes power dice.
Skaven get warp tokens that add D6 to the casting total, and vastly better lores of magic.

Lizardmen can get, a re-roll of first failed dispel test. They can save a dispel die to use as a power die, or channel 3 times instead of once.
The triple channel looks good, but isn't that much better than just running multiple casters. The base cost of the Slann is very high and he's very survivable. But that's the problem. You pay out the nose for survivability, when you could instead just use avoidance like every other army. The stupid throne he sits on limits his movement to 4, with no mounts (elves get M9 fast cav mounts and flying mounts, skaven get skitter leap).

The Slann is a pretty solid defensive choice, but doesn't really get the output he used to. The lack of choice of lores for the support wizards is really a kick in the nuts to the army. You're either spending 300 to 500 points on your wizard, or you get heavens/beast on a level 1 or 2. This is partially offset by the high magic signature (throw the spell away and generate a new one from the basic lores), but that's instead of getting a better wardsave for your unit, or doing extra hits.

Everything you describe screams Elves / Eternity King Host to me.

Magic: Elves = check this box off.

Death Star: Elves can death star pretty well.... Mono elf lists have a harder time doing it, but Host of the Eternity King can deathstar like no ones business. Cauldron + Witches or Swordmasters or Lions or any other nasty ass melee unit of your choice, Plus a high elf mage rocking high magic, sprinkle in some Sisters of the Thorn, and you have a rock hard, warded up, sledgehammer hitting unit on your hand. Just be careful with deathstars.... the bigger they are, the harder they tend to fall, but Elves have better initiative than most which is the stat most level 6 instant death spells test on. Dwellers will murder you.

Big Monsters: Again, a little bit in High Elves. Dragons (over costed, model is pretty fugly), Griffons (decent-ish, if profiles were combined like they are for new end times stuff, they'd be awesome), Phoenix... yeah... dunno the plural of that. Fire phoenixes are good against massed infantry, Frost Phoenixes are good against "Yes".

Again Host of the Eternity King gives you access to a lot more monsters... treekin / Treemen if you like them, Hydras if you like breath weapons, Kharybidyss if anime tentacle porn is your thing, Manticores, and the Cauldron of Blood which isn't a monster but is bigger than most monsters in the game.


So that's why i'm voting Elves. LIzardmen and skaven will work too for sure, but if you're open to End TImes and the Host of the Eternity king... scratch all itches, every itch at once.



Pros and cons of HotEK:

Pros - disgusting availability and array of magic. You literally have everything except the specialty lores at your fingertips. For less than 275 points you can have full bore access to Life, Death, Dark, and Beasts, and then whatever else your Level 4 decides to rock.

Your melee is insane. Everyone has ASF, attacks in an additional rank, and re-rolls 1's to wound in melee combat.

You can make a tough as nails list without sacrificing strength. Several vectors of + TOughness, and high concentration of good quality ward saves / ability to pass out wards / improve wards.

You have a ridiculous number of options, the playstyle is very malleable based on what you take.

Phoenixes get better in End TImes due to rolling 4 dice on the magic phase (makes it much less likely a 1 or 2 comes up).

It's stupid fun.


Con -

Your wood elves lose their "free tree!" rule.

Unless you plan for a rock hard list, you are mostly fragile.

You have so many amazing options that it can be hard to dial back the crazy a little and make sure your opponent is still having fun.

Requires playing End TImes rules - if you take Eternity King unless you house rule it, you auto play with End TImes rules. Crazier, longer magic phase, but also less predictable, which means less opportunity to get off super mega spells.

If you are into mono-armies, then Hotek is not going to be your thing.

Lizardmen-

Slann with lore of light in a big block of TG with either Chakax or Gor-Rok is really scary.

Lots of monsters

 Andy140491 wrote:
Hi guys

I'm trying to get back into fantasy, but I don't know which army I'd like to play. And I was wondering if as a community you'd be so kind as to help me choose.

The army I'm after is I suppose able to make a 'deathstar' if I wanted. Not because I want an uber strong unit, but I just like toying with the idea.

A love strong magic casters. I suppose that's always my 'go to' in an army. Is the caster.

I do like quite big monsters to play about with. Just because I like to model and paint them. I love the new vermin lord. Bordering on one of my favourite models.

And I suppose general pros and cons to an army. If you guys could help me out if greatly appreciate it. Thanks

Lizardmen & HE can do cavalry stars. Have big monsters & strong magic.

Surprisingly skaven are low votes. They have cool monsters in the verminlord, hellpit abom & the new stormfiends. They can also do a "deathstar" in what is called "bell star". i'd say no to dwarfs because they don't have any magic.