Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Necrons are all over the entire galaxy and can traverse it very quickly due to Inertialess Drives. In addition, it's actually fairly likely that they started out somewhere near the Tau Empire, since they started on the other side of the galaxy from the Eldar, who started in the 'galactic northwest' (Tau are in the 'galactic southeast').

And the Third Sphere took 'plenty of territory' by Tau standards. They took what, six planets?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Necrons are all over the entire galaxy and can traverse it very quickly due to Inertialess Drives. In addition, it's actually fairly likely that they started out somewhere near the Tau Empire, since they started on the other side of the galaxy from the Eldar, who started in the 'galactic northwest' (Tau are in the 'galactic southeast').

And the Third Sphere took 'plenty of territory' by Tau standards. They took what, six planets?

I would've thought that it was more like 6 stars than six planets. I mean, that's insignificant even for the Tau. GW needs to at least make the Tau a credible threat to the Imperium of Man if they expect the tau to be, in any way, a faction that makes even a little bit of sense.

I was assuming one habitable planet per star and only counting habitable planets. ^^;

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I was assuming one habitable planet per star and only counting habitable planets. ^^;

That's where terraforming comes in handy. You can't honestly believe that a race with more advanced tech per capita than the IoM can't even terraform a planet

Yet it would be fun to see tau having heads crumped by crons, actualy anyone who engages in the most honarble form of combat (ect.any thing that involes hiting realy hard in the face with a stick.).

Destruction of the orks, then return of the orks.
Destruction of the tyranids, then return of the tyranids
The emperor goes back to being what he was before sitting on the Golden Throne.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I was assuming one habitable planet per star and only counting habitable planets. ^^;

That's where terraforming comes in handy. You can't honestly believe that a race with more advanced tech per capita than the IoM can't even terraform a planet

Terraforming is mentioned, they even change the entire atmospheres of planets.

Don't you mean Tauiforming?

 dusara217 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Necrons are all over the entire galaxy and can traverse it very quickly due to Inertialess Drives. In addition, it's actually fairly likely that they started out somewhere near the Tau Empire, since they started on the other side of the galaxy from the Eldar, who started in the 'galactic northwest' (Tau are in the 'galactic southeast').

And the Third Sphere took 'plenty of territory' by Tau standards. They took what, six planets?

I would've thought that it was more like 6 stars than six planets. I mean, that's insignificant even for the Tau. GW needs to at least make the Tau a credible threat to the Imperium of Man if they expect the tau to be, in any way, a faction that makes even a little bit of sense.

By most estimates, the Tau control about 100 systems. 1/4th of those are from the 3rd Sphere, which is still ongoing. Since all of the Space Marines that fell for Shadowsun's diversion at Zeist have been recalled to fight the 13th Black Crusade, it's safe to assume that she could easily take another 25 systems from the Imperium.

The Tau are a credible threat because 1) the Imperium simply cannot muster the forces to deal with the Tau while they fight off Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and the 13th Black Crusade, 2) the Imperium is willing to call truces with them any time something goes wrong elsewhere, which give the Tau a chance to play America to the IoM's natives, retaking worlds through diplomacy or implied force like they did after the Damocles Crusade, and 3) the Tau are the only faction in 40k that are still developing technologically. In time, they'll be as advanced as the 'Crons in terms of starship tech, with a birth rate (there is a finite number of Necrons and that number is only going to shrink, especially if the Silent King succeeds in convincing his robot brethren to rust themselves dry fighting the 'Nids) and no long-term, organized opposition (as humanity will forever be too busy with Chaos and Orks to launch a large enough counter-offensive to stop them).

It's manifest destiny all over again.

The Tau will never be advanced as the Necrons in terms of starship tech, because their FTL technology has gone down the Warp-based route, which is simply never going to be as good and goes in an entirely different technological direction.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Tau will never be advanced as the Necrons in terms of starship tech, because their FTL technology has gone down the Warp-based route, which is simply never going to be as good and goes in an entirely different technological direction.

... and you know how the Necrons proceeded from a species without space travel to one with the best in the galaxy how? What book chronicles the Necrons as a rising star-faring civilization?

Heck, THAT'S a good idea for a book. Let's have something about the Necrontyr before the war with the Old Ones.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

By most estimates, the Tau control about 100 systems. 1/4th of those are from the 3rd Sphere, which is still ongoing. Since all of the Space Marines that fell for Shadowsun's diversion at Zeist have been recalled to fight the 13th Black Crusade, it's safe to assume that she could easily take another 25 systems from the Imperium.

The Tau are a credible threat because 1) the Imperium simply cannot muster the forces to deal with the Tau while they fight off Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and the 13th Black Crusade, 2) the Imperium is willing to call truces with them any time something goes wrong elsewhere, which give the Tau a chance to play America to the IoM's natives, retaking worlds through diplomacy or implied force like they did after the Damocles Crusade, and 3) the Tau are the only faction in 40k that are still developing technologically. In time, they'll be as advanced as the 'Crons in terms of starship tech, with a birth rate (there is a finite number of Necrons and that number is only going to shrink, especially if the Silent King succeeds in convincing his robot brethren to rust themselves dry fighting the 'Nids) and no long-term, organized opposition (as humanity will forever be too busy with Chaos and Orks to launch a large enough counter-offensive to stop them).

It's manifest destiny all over again.

That is not safe to assume. The Tau may not be able to sustain an offensive that far logistically, the Imperial systems beyond those already taken may be more heavily fortified or better led, the Tau may have already suffered significant casualties, the Tau might not know the extent to which the Imperium has withdrawn their forces and may opt for a more cautious approach among other potential problems.

Those enemies of the Imperium will be a threat to the Tau as well. Depending on the reasons for the Necrons harvesting Ka'mais the Tau could easily end up fighting a Necron dynasty; a faction with far superior technology. Tyranids and Orks will continue to fight the Tau especially if the Tau expand further. Chaos will become more potent as the human and other Warp-sensitive populations within the Tau Empire increase. Necrons are still developing technology. The Imperium does so very slowly but more importantly discovers older, more powerful technology from time to time. Dark Eldar create new technology as well I do believe. I see no reason why the Craftworld Eldar wouldn't either. Various Chaos, xeno and non-Imperial or Chaos humans will do so as well. The Tau might never be able to muster the same technology as the Necrons. Who knows how much they gained from the C'tan? They might go down entirely different roads of technology. They might have a civil war should the Ethereals would to bring the Farsight Enclaves to heel.

Your argument depends on the Tau remaining sheltered yet rapidly expanding and facing few consistent threats despite having come into conflict with every major faction in the galaxy. There's no real reason for that to remain the case as they become more powerful.

Tau are living in an uber oppressive McCarthy nightmare with implied and outright brainwashing, policing of every individual and a rigid caste system.

Even by 40K standards they are bad guys.

Compared to the imperium, it's a great place to live. The tau have this interesting place in 40k. In any other place they would be the bad faction, in 40k they are better than the "main" faction.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Necrons are all over the entire galaxy and can traverse it very quickly due to Inertialess Drives. In addition, it's actually fairly likely that they started out somewhere near the Tau Empire, since they started on the other side of the galaxy from the Eldar, who started in the 'galactic northwest' (Tau are in the 'galactic southeast').

And the Third Sphere took 'plenty of territory' by Tau standards. They took what, six planets?

I would've thought that it was more like 6 stars than six planets. I mean, that's insignificant even for the Tau. GW needs to at least make the Tau a credible threat to the Imperium of Man if they expect the tau to be, in any way, a faction that makes even a little bit of sense.

By most estimates, the Tau control about 100 systems. 1/4th of those are from the 3rd Sphere, which is still ongoing. Since all of the Space Marines that fell for Shadowsun's diversion at Zeist have been recalled to fight the 13th Black Crusade, it's safe to assume that she could easily take another 25 systems from the Imperium.

The Tau are a credible threat because 1) the Imperium simply cannot muster the forces to deal with the Tau while they fight off Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and the 13th Black Crusade, 2) the Imperium is willing to call truces with them any time something goes wrong elsewhere, which give the Tau a chance to play America to the IoM's natives, retaking worlds through diplomacy or implied force like they did after the Damocles Crusade, and 3) the Tau are the only faction in 40k that are still developing technologically. In time, they'll be as advanced as the 'Crons in terms of starship tech, with a birth rate (there is a finite number of Necrons and that number is only going to shrink, especially if the Silent King succeeds in convincing his robot brethren to rust themselves dry fighting the 'Nids) and no long-term, organized opposition (as humanity will forever be too busy with Chaos and Orks to launch a large enough counter-offensive to stop them).

It's manifest destiny all over again.

the Tau could have taken more systems.... or it's possiable some minor ork Waagh stopped them cold and reversed some of their gains. the Tau are bit players on the galatic stage. they play on such an absurdly small scale compared to everyone else it's honestly hard for me to really take them seriously as a faction beyond a "representization of the countless alien civilizations that the IoM has delt with over the millineia. every other army in 40k is galactic in scale...... then you have the Tau whom are a regional power. it's like having a board game dealing with world powers, you've got all these nuclear super powers..... and then you have Canada.

This is not the forum for repeating the same arguments every time the Tau are brought up. If you have ideas on a story about the Tau, I would be glad to hear them.

I for one would be very interested to read about a humans living and fighting under Tau rule. The initial naive hope for something better slowly eroding away as they realize the Tau are as flawed as any other race out their.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Compared to the imperium, it's a great place to live. The tau have this interesting place in 40k. In any other place they would be the bad faction, in 40k they are better than the "main" faction.

That depends very much on your planet. Hive Worlds are actually in minority and most Imperial Worlds (which are in majority) really are not that bad.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Necrons are all over the entire galaxy and can traverse it very quickly due to Inertialess Drives. In addition, it's actually fairly likely that they started out somewhere near the Tau Empire, since they started on the other side of the galaxy from the Eldar, who started in the 'galactic northwest' (Tau are in the 'galactic southeast').

And the Third Sphere took 'plenty of territory' by Tau standards. They took what, six planets?

I would've thought that it was more like 6 stars than six planets. I mean, that's insignificant even for the Tau. GW needs to at least make the Tau a credible threat to the Imperium of Man if they expect the tau to be, in any way, a faction that makes even a little bit of sense.

By most estimates, the Tau control about 100 systems. 1/4th of those are from the 3rd Sphere, which is still ongoing. Since all of the Space Marines that fell for Shadowsun's diversion at Zeist have been recalled to fight the 13th Black Crusade, it's safe to assume that she could easily take another 25 systems from the Imperium.

The Tau are a credible threat because 1) the Imperium simply cannot muster the forces to deal with the Tau while they fight off Necrons, Tyranids, Orks, and the 13th Black Crusade, 2) the Imperium is willing to call truces with them any time something goes wrong elsewhere, which give the Tau a chance to play America to the IoM's natives, retaking worlds through diplomacy or implied force like they did after the Damocles Crusade, and 3) the Tau are the only faction in 40k that are still developing technologically. In time, they'll be as advanced as the 'Crons in terms of starship tech, with a birth rate (there is a finite number of Necrons and that number is only going to shrink, especially if the Silent King succeeds in convincing his robot brethren to rust themselves dry fighting the 'Nids) and no long-term, organized opposition (as humanity will forever be too busy with Chaos and Orks to launch a large enough counter-offensive to stop them).

It's manifest destiny all over again.

the Tau could have taken more systems.... or it's possiable some minor ork Waagh stopped them cold and reversed some of their gains. the Tau are bit players on the galatic stage. they play on such an absurdly small scale compared to everyone else it's honestly hard for me to really take them seriously as a faction beyond a "representization of the countless alien civilizations that the IoM has delt with over the millineia. every other army in 40k is galactic in scale...... then you have the Tau whom are a regional power. it's like having a board game dealing with world powers, you've got all these nuclear super powers..... and then you have Canada.

Well, if you think about it, alot of the factions in 40K are tiny comparatively. The Eldar own only a host of Craftworlds, which couldnt number more than a hundred and thats a big estimate, the Dark Eldar own one (albeit huge) city, and the Tau have a small empire. So that leaves the Orks (who will never really be a huge threat), the Necrons, Tyranids and Chaos who can do anything to the Imperium.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Necrons are all over the entire galaxy and can traverse it very quickly due to Inertialess Drives. In addition, it's actually fairly likely that they started out somewhere near the Tau Empire, since they started on the other side of the galaxy from the Eldar, who started in the 'galactic northwest' (Tau are in the 'galactic southeast').

And the Third Sphere took 'plenty of territory' by Tau standards. They took what, six planets?

I would've thought that it was more like 6 stars than six planets. I mean, that's insignificant even for the Tau. GW needs to at least make the Tau a credible threat to the Imperium of Man if they expect the tau to be, in any way, a faction that makes even a little bit of sense.

The whole point of the Tau as a faction is that they represent the myriad of irrelevant tiny alien empires scattered throughout the galaxy.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
This is not the forum for repeating the same arguments every time the Tau are brought up. If you have ideas on a story about the Tau, I would be glad to hear them.

I for one would be very interested to read about a humans living and fighting under Tau rule. The initial naive hope for something better slowly eroding away as they realize the Tau are as flawed as any other race out their.

I'd like the exact reverse. A story about a Water Caste or Ethereal whose hope of co-existing with humanity is eroded by their inevitable corruption from Chaos.

It'd be fluffier. The wisest and oldest of humanity- the God-Emperor himself- was a child and a fool compared to Teddy Roosevelt. In the 40k universe, 3 dimensional characters make more sense when they are aliens, since all of the humans are so damned flat.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
YA KNOW WHAT?

feth IT! I'm going to write that story! Even if it only exists here, it needs to exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Necrons are all over the entire galaxy and can traverse it very quickly due to Inertialess Drives. In addition, it's actually fairly likely that they started out somewhere near the Tau Empire, since they started on the other side of the galaxy from the Eldar, who started in the 'galactic northwest' (Tau are in the 'galactic southeast').

And the Third Sphere took 'plenty of territory' by Tau standards. They took what, six planets?

I would've thought that it was more like 6 stars than six planets. I mean, that's insignificant even for the Tau. GW needs to at least make the Tau a credible threat to the Imperium of Man if they expect the tau to be, in any way, a faction that makes even a little bit of sense.

The whole point of the Tau as a faction is that they represent the myriad of irrelevant tiny alien empires scattered throughout the galaxy.

No. The Tau represent hope for a better tomorrow. The Imperium, in its 10k-long state of decay, has none.

EmpNortonII wrote:... and you know how the Necrons proceeded from a species without space travel to one with the best in the galaxy how? What book chronicles the Necrons as a rising star-faring civilization?

Heck, THAT'S a good idea for a book. Let's have something about the Necrontyr before the war with the Old Ones.

It's standard theory: When two possible forms of a technology exist, once one path has been chosen, it takes a significant amount of energy that is never going to be viable outside red alert emergency situations to go down the other path. For the same reason that we're struggling to switch from Fossil to Renewable energy IRL, the Tau would struggle immensely to switch from Warp-based to Pure Physical FTL technology. That said, a Rise of the Necrontyr novel would be amazing.

EmpNortonII wrote:
I'd like the exact reverse. A story about a Water Caste or Ethereal whose hope of co-existing with humanity is eroded by their inevitable corruption from Chaos.

SEX IT! I'm going to write that story! Even if it only exists here, it needs to exist.

Go for it! And mind your language.

EmpNortonII wrote:

No. The Tau represent hope for a better tomorrow. The Imperium, in its 10k-long state of decay, has none.

Tzeentch Chaos Tau, confirmed for 2016.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Compared to the imperium, it's a great place to live. The tau have this interesting place in 40k. In any other place they would be the bad faction, in 40k they are better than the "main" faction.

That depends very much on your planet. Hive Worlds are actually in minority and most Imperial Worlds (which are in majority) really are not that bad.

Despite their low number they might actualy contain most of mankind's population in 40k. Of course, there are plenty of other worlds where live sucks. Feudal worlds, war worlds, munitorium depots, forgeworlds, the more opressive civilised worlds and quite a few more. Imo the best places in the Imperium are either ruled by Ultramarines or otherwise in the peripherey. The further away from Terra and the imperial seats of power, the better. Of course, peaceful worlds with only a marginal (for 40k) level of supression makes for boring stories.

KingDeath wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Compared to the imperium, it's a great place to live. The tau have this interesting place in 40k. In any other place they would be the bad faction, in 40k they are better than the "main" faction.

That depends very much on your planet. Hive Worlds are actually in minority and most Imperial Worlds (which are in majority) really are not that bad.

Despite their low number they might actualy contain most of mankind's population in 40k. Of course, there are plenty of other worlds where live sucks. Feudal worlds, war worlds, munitorium depots, forgeworlds, the more opressive civilised worlds and quite a few more. Imo the best places in the Imperium are either ruled by Ultramarines or otherwise in the peripherey. The further away from Terra and the imperial seats of power, the better. Of course, peaceful worlds with only a marginal (for 40k) level of supression makes for boring stories.

Hey, pleasure planets are great places to live.

The political climate on the majority of planets in the impirium, is going to be at least as bad as the tau, and less accepting. The whole "bad, but not quite as bad" thing is their shtick. A lot of the good come from increased living conditions. Cleaner air, cleaner water, better food, more efficiency.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
I wanna hear a story about a planet. It should start off by introducing us to it. What classification, What climate, what geological anomalies sand out. Why it was colonized, when, and how. Then I want to hear who the current ruler is, what the rulers life is like, and what is the ruling class? Whats their political standing with the Imperium? With it's neighbors? With their trade partners? What type of aliens lurk around the system? Then I want to hear about the society side of things.
Social life? Planet Infrastructure? Culture? Food, Product, Trade? what about archeology? paleontology? what do the people build? what do the people extract from the planet, or nearby asteroids? Any notable individuals?

If there was a book like that for warhammer 40k, i'd be the first to buy it.

I give this a vote. I'm surprised at how, relatively few space marine stories are being requested. Given the percentage of marine based stories that are released.

Oh and the agricultural worlds are obviously the best places to live. Imagine farming a planet!! I would need a bigger tractor....

You don't actually have to ask for those.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The third sphere expansion took plenty of territory from the Imperium. They'll be able to expand like that until such time as they are the single greatest threat to the Imperium. Necrons and Chaos are mostly at the other end of the galaxy, and the Tau have wiped out one hive fleet. They can do it again.

The imperium's various elite fighting elements out number the entire Tau race many times over. They don't stand a chance at being the "biggest threat to the Imperium" for thousands of years.

The Tau did wipe out a hive-fleet. A miniscule one which had a bad tendency of way over-compensating with evolutions and thereby expending massive amounts of unneeded biomass - I.E. a crippled hive-fleet which any of the other factions would have swatted like a gnat. The Tau were absolutely terrified of the threat which this malformed, super watered down Tyranid menace posed, and had to enlist both the assistance of the Imperium -and- the Dark Eldar in order to overcome the threat which it posed to them.

Yeah. The tau are a joke.

Are you talking about space marine, because the tau vastly outnumber the canonical space marine maximum.

 Jollydevil wrote:
Well, if you think about it, alot of the factions in 40K are tiny comparatively. The Eldar own only a host of Craftworlds, which couldnt number more than a hundred and thats a big estimate, the Dark Eldar own one (albeit huge) city, and the Tau have a small empire. So that leaves the Orks (who will never really be a huge threat), the Necrons, Tyranids and Chaos who can do anything to the Imperium.

The Eldar own only a host of craftwords, but are still capable of devastating large swathes of space because they're so high-tech, and are almost impossible to reprimand because they're so elusive.

A single moderately sized Kabal can steal an entire planet's population over the course of a single night. There are innumerable Kabals. They're also almost immune to reprimand.

The Orks are a huge threat when a large waaaaagh comes along. Otherwise yeah, they're just an annoyance.

I think the point is that anyone could wipe the Tau out with nominal effort. If an actual bonafied Hive Fleet decides it wants to eat some blue aliens, they're boned. If Chaos decides to launch a black crusade on them out of the nearby rift, if the Imperium launches an actually supplied crusade, if a large-scale (or even moderate) ork Waaagh rolls through, ect ect. The tau could survive none of these things.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:
Space Marine creation. The story of a kid's metamorphosis from adolescent to mankind's greatest warrior.

Some have tried to do this well, all have failed.

And ultimately, how interesting of a story would this be, really? The process of building a Space Marine involves taking a young child, breaking down everything that makes him an individual, and turning him into a remorseless, unquestioning killing machine. How much narrative (okay, so how much believable narrative) are you going to get out of recounting endless hours of military drills, psychoindoctrination, mental conditioning and physical fitness?

I can see this being part of a novel, where an adult Space Marine recalls bits and pieces of his training, but again... given how bad some of the failed attempts have been (the Space Wolf series comes to mind), maybe best to just let some things remain somewhat ambiguous.


As far as what I'd like to see would be more novels set at the "ground level" of 40K. Told from the perspective of the faceless cogs. More horror-style stories about random Administratum or Mechanicum scrubs who stumble onto dark secrets or ancient evils. But these aren't always the easiest stories to write, and probably not the most profitable to publish either. I've really started to like some of John French's style, but I wonder if he'll ever be unleashed to write a full novel that isn't about Space Marines (or Chaos Marines). Space Marines make such terrible protagonists and are a waste of his abilities (or at least seem to be).

This story has kind of already been done in another scifi universe. Read Halo: The Fall of Reach. It tells about the Master Chief's recruitment, training, indoctrination, and physical augmentation. I think the same thing would work for a Space Marine.

Personally I would like to see a story about Mankind before the Imperium. Perhaps tell about what happened when they first discovered the Warp, or some stories like the first time they contacted the Eldar or Orks or other xenos.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Compared to the imperium, it's a great place to live. The tau have this interesting place in 40k. In any other place they would be the bad faction, in 40k they are better than the "main" faction.

That depends very much on your planet. Hive Worlds are actually in minority and most Imperial Worlds (which are in majority) really are not that bad.

Despite their low number they might actualy contain most of mankind's population in 40k. Of course, there are plenty of other worlds where live sucks. Feudal worlds, war worlds, munitorium depots, forgeworlds, the more opressive civilised worlds and quite a few more. Imo the best places in the Imperium are either ruled by Ultramarines or otherwise in the peripherey. The further away from Terra and the imperial seats of power, the better. Of course, peaceful worlds with only a marginal (for 40k) level of supression makes for boring stories.

Hey, pleasure planets are great places to live.

The political climate on the majority of planets in the impirium, is going to be at least as bad as the tau, and less accepting. The whole "bad, but not quite as bad" thing is their shtick. A lot of the good come from increased living conditions. Cleaner air, cleaner water, better food, more efficiency.

Depends if the pleasure planet means "hump day erry'day", or simply where the Imperium expects its servants to look at waterfalls while training before going on another suicide mission.