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You guys realise that you are arguing about details, right? And that most of you are wrong in one way or another?

There is no such thing as European culture. Each country in Europe has its own and very distinct cultural identity.

Claiming that US culture is the same as "European" culture is also wrong. Yes, some traits of current US culture can trace their origins to some countries in Europe, but current US culture is an amalgamation of cultures from European, American, African and even Asian countries mixed with some things that have developed in the US exclusively. Conversely, we can also say that many elements in the current culture of European countries have been imported from the good ol' US of A, mainly thanks to WW2 but also from the constant bombardment that we are subjected in the form of American movies and TV shows.

All of this having been said, we share a whole bunch of cultural traits between our nations that are pretty much exclusive to Western Democracies. And thank Jeebus for that!

 d-usa wrote:
The biggest problem is that we have people pretending that there is such a thing as "European culture".

I wrote “European cultures”, with both bold and underline over the s. But maybe I will write “European cultures” next time, if that is what it takes not to be misunderstood.
That, and maybe you should read the rest of the phrase, which states that the French culture is different from the German culture, which in turn is different from the Spanish culture, and so on.


Let me try again, maybe I will manage to be understood. Here is what I am saying. There are many different cultures. Now, all those cultures are different, but some of them share similarities. Similarities that tend to have them regrouped under common families. For instance, the Chinese, Japanese and Korean culture are obviously very different from each others, and the German, French and English culture are obviously different from each other too. But yet, still, Japanese, Chinese and Korean cultures do share a bunch of similarities to each other, and German, French and English cultures do share a bunch of similarities that would make people naturally regroup those 6 cultures into two families. Now, of course there is no official categorization of the world's culture into families, but really, I would certainly feel much comfortable in the U.S. than I would in Korea or in India or in Niger. (Note that “more comfortable” does not generally means better, getting out of your comfort zone and discovering new things can be very exciting and fun too.) Actually I guess I would be more comfortable in the U.S. than I would in, say, Ukraine, and Ukraine is definitely part of Europe. So, yeah, if I am going to consider a family of cultures that I am going to call European cultures, it will certainly include the U.S. as well, along with Canada.

This is becoming a very boring thread.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well unless you've actually been to the US I can't put much stock in your opinion.

I have been to the U.S. California. Went around a bit, bolted through Las Vegas, slept in a tent near the Death Valley, went to see those trees that look like some kind of huge snot pillar that you call sequoia (that was really fun), grand canyon, … New York too, for a few days. I have family in the U.S. Also my parents have friends there.
I have been to Canada too. They had vegetarian sausages. That was very strange, tasting sausages again. I stopped eating sausage around 3 years old, and yet when tasting the vegetarian one, I still found out the taste seemed disturbingly similar to actual sausage. That was confirmed by non-vegetarians. Disturbing experience.
I have also been in South Korea. And India (but really, most of the time in Ladakh, which is a pretty specific part of India). And in Iran, and in Ukraine. You might recognize a few countries I used in my examples of countries I would feel more or less comfortable. Well, that was from experience.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
The biggest problem is that we have people pretending that there is such a thing as "European culture".

I wrote “European cultures”, with both bold and underline over the s. But maybe I will write “European cultures” next time, if that is what it takes not to be misunderstood.
That, and maybe you should read the rest of the phrase, which states that the French culture is different from the German culture, which in turn is different from the Spanish culture, and so on.


Let me try again, maybe I will manage to be understood. Here is what I am saying. There are many different cultures. Now, all those cultures are different, but some of them share similarities. Similarities that tend to have them regrouped under common families. For instance, the Chinese, Japanese and Korean culture are obviously very different from each others, and the German, French and English culture are obviously different from each other too. But yet, still, Japanese, Chinese and Korean cultures do share a bunch of similarities to each other, and German, French and English cultures do share a bunch of similarities that would make people naturally regroup those 6 cultures into two families. Now, of course there is no official categorization of the world's culture into families, but really, I would certainly feel much comfortable in the U.S. than I would in Korea or in India or in Niger. (Note that “more comfortable” does not generally means better, getting out of your comfort zone and discovering new things can be very exciting and fun too.) Actually I guess I would be more comfortable in the U.S. than I would in, say, Ukraine, and Ukraine is definitely part of Europe. So, yeah, if I am going to consider a family of cultures that I am going to call European cultures, it will certainly include the U.S. as well, along with Canada.

Did I write your name or single you out? Maybe next time I don't write your name I will not write it in red and underline the blank space.

Well, you did directly reference what I said (about Switzerland), so, yeah, if you were not talking about me, making it explicit would be a pretty good idea. No need for red or underline here, just a few words like “we have people (not speaking about anyone specific in this thread)” or something to that effect.
Because here, it really felt like it was directed at me.

There is no such thing as a single "European culture", but there definitely is a European culture group, which is what people usually refer to when they say European culture. All European cultures share elements and have similarities that set them apart from distinctly non-European cultures, such as the Chinese ones.
American (and Canadian, Australian etc. maybe even Latin American) culture all fall into this European culture group (unsurprising given that they are alternate developments of previous cultures from Europe).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
This is becoming a very boring thread.

I don't think so. Thinking and chatting about culture is interesting. Much philosophical.

 MWHistorian wrote:


I'm the last person to believe in white guilt or cis-male whatever crap. But yeah, The US government did attempt to commit genocide and wipe out the Native culture.

I don't know why people try to make it a guilt thing. The bit of it is done and over. Nothing can be done about it anymore. No guilt involved.

If there is anything to be 'guilty' over, it's that we've allowed the reservation system to continue. But that's not genocide. It's just bad policy.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
Cajun culture in Louisiana.

Those guys that speak French, you mean? How un-European of them! Just like the French, the Swiss, the Belgians, …
Really, they totally set the U.S. apart from the rest of Europe: they have minorities that speaks French!

Ever been to Louisiana? I would be willing to bet money that you, a Frenchman go into Cajun-Speaking parts of Louisiana and attempt to speak your native language with them and not be able to understand much, if any of what they say.

To put it another way... If I went to say, Glasgow and went into a "locals" pub and start speaking to the locals about rugby, pints or whatever else, there will be a practical language barrier because even though on paper, we're speaking the "same" language, the dialects and accents are so different from each other that it makes it near impossible to understand each other.


As to some of your other points... Yeah, Jazz moved over to Europe, AFTER it was birthed in America.... and really, the story of Jazz is quite amazing, because it, like Blues come from a particular area, particular walk of life and even it (jazz and blues) didn't spring from nothing.... The Guitar, as an instrument was brought out of Africa, and these "Americans" took that instrument and put their soul into the sound, creating a wholly unique music that has been exported, added to and changed everywhere it goes.


If you want a prime example of how similar, yet how far apart Europe is from the US compare Soccer and "Football" or, compare Rugby to Football. You put a "real" american in front of a TV watching soccer, and he'll be bored to tears because he/she thinks its just 11 people jogging around after a ball, occasionally falling over in agony and then taking a kick at a big box.... Similarly with rugby, most Americans who see it are often like, "the tackle was made, why are they piling onto him!?!?! Won't the ref blow the whistle!? Why did he kick it there!?" Conversely you put most Germans, Frenchmen, and quite a few Brits in front of a Telly with an NFL or College football game on and it's quite the opposite, "Why are they playing rugby with all those things on? Why did the ref blow the whistle after the tackle? Where's the ruck? That's a blatantly forward pass!? How is THAT not a yellow card?"

 LordofHats wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:


I'm the last person to believe in white guilt or cis-male whatever crap. But yeah, The US government did attempt to commit genocide and wipe out the Native culture.

I don't know why people try to make it a guilt thing. The bit of it is done and over. Nothing can be done about it anymore. No guilt involved.

If there is anything to be 'guilty' over, it's that we've allowed the reservation system to continue. But that's not genocide. It's just bad policy.

Depends on how one look at those policies being the treaties that were made back in the day screwed Native Americans royally which over time screws over the State/Federal government today.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
There is no such thing as a single "European culture", but there definitely is a European culture group, which is what people usually refer to when they say European culture. All European cultures share elements and have similarities that set them apart from distinctly non-European cultures, such as the Chinese ones.
American (and Canadian, Australian etc. maybe even Latin American) culture all fall into this European culture group (unsurprising given that they are alternate developments of previous cultures from Europe).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
This is becoming a very boring thread.

I don't think so. Thinking and chatting about culture is interesting. Much philosophical.

I think you are being far too broad however.

there really isnt a European culture, or an Asian one.

One only has to tell a Scotsman how they are basically the same as the Irish, or a Chinese that they are basically the same as Japanese, ect ect

to realize that the differences between Scottish people and Irish are just as pronounced as the differences between the Japanese and Chinese, and just as much as the differences between Chinese and Scottish people.

I think we tend only to group up cultures when we dont really understand the differences, or are judging the cultures similarities based on very superficial, readily observable things like food, clothes, skin colour, and so on.


right or wrong, I do find the discussion of culture to be engaging and pleasant, and welcome/appreciate discussion on it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
Cajun culture in Louisiana.

Those guys that speak French, you mean? How un-European of them! Just like the French, the Swiss, the Belgians, …
Really, they totally set the U.S. apart from the rest of Europe: they have minorities that speaks French!

 easysauce wrote:

I think you are being far too broad however.

there really isnt a European culture, or an Asian one.

One only has to tell a Scotsman how they are basically the same as the Irish, or a Chinese that they are basically the same as Japanese, ect ect

to realize that the differences between Scottish people and Irish are just as pronounced as the differences between the Japanese and Chinese, and just as much as the differences between Chinese and Scottish people.

I think we tend only to group up cultures when we dont really understand the differences, or are judging the cultures similarities based on very superficial, readily observable things like food, clothes, skin colour, and so on.


right or wrong, I do find the discussion of culture to be engaging and pleasant, and welcome/appreciate discussion on it.

In many ways he is right though.... in a "typical" Western Society, we value individuals and individualism, on the flip side of that, most of the Eastern cultures I've been exposed to value the group over self.

For instance, a good army buddy of mine, from Hong Kong originally, married a "mainland" Chinese woman. before I left Fort Carson for Germany, he was seriously worried/stressed about what he was going to do about HER parents, as when he married her, it became his "responsibility" to house, feed and care for them in their retirement years. I know that doesn't sound so bad on the surface, but he was on soldier pay and it was doubtful whether he'd be granted a "special" dependent status for the in-laws. The craziest thing about the situation (from my point of view) was that her Dad was a multi-millionaire due to having owned one of the 3 largest beer brewers in China (I forgot which one it is, but it really is one of the richest within the country of China)

When I told that story to my buddy in Germany, who married a Japanese lady espoused much the same thing, and it was a source of friction between her and her parents (last I talked to him, that situation has died down some, with the understanding that if the means become available, they will uphold tradition)



So, while I agree, the sentiment of "European Culture" or "Asian Culture" is too broad in most sense, I think that it's OK to use the term when we're talking about the commonalities among us.

I think "western culture" would be the better choice of term there though.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Ever been to Louisiana?

Nope. I heard Cajun singers though.
I am not saying Cajun are the same as French. I am saying that they share enough with European cultures in general to be in the same family of cultures.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Yeah, Jazz moved over to Europe, AFTER it was birthed in America....

Just like tons of stuff went to the U.S. after it was birthed in another European country. And therefore European countries exchanged ideas and arts and thinking and everything, and therefore ended up with cultures that have tons of similarities.
Pansori did not move over to Europe.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
If you want a prime example of how similar, yet how far apart Europe is from the US compare Soccer and "Football" or, compare Rugby to Football.

Well, not liking soccer is certainly a U.S. specificity. The sport is popular pretty much in every other country in the whole world!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
I think "western culture" would be the better choice of term there though.

West of what? And then, is Russia to be considered Western or… Eastern? What about Latin America?
“Western” is usually a relic of the cold war rhetoric. It mixes geopolitics and culture. It is very ambiguous. I would certainly rather speak about European cultures.

Western and Eastern have been accepted for quite a while in many areas outside of geo-politics. Culture and Medicine are just two such examples. I'm fairly certain that the world will continue to use the term despite your weird insistence to name everything after a single continent.

 d-usa wrote:
Culture and Medicine are just two such examples.

So, is Africa Western, or Eastern, or maybe neither, or both? Is Russia Western, or Eastern?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Spoiler:

 easysauce wrote:

I think you are being far too broad however.

there really isnt a European culture, or an Asian one.

One only has to tell a Scotsman how they are basically the same as the Irish, or a Chinese that they are basically the same as Japanese, ect ect

to realize that the differences between Scottish people and Irish are just as pronounced as the differences between the Japanese and Chinese, and just as much as the differences between Chinese and Scottish people.

I think we tend only to group up cultures when we dont really understand the differences, or are judging the cultures similarities based on very superficial, readily observable things like food, clothes, skin colour, and so on.


right or wrong, I do find the discussion of culture to be engaging and pleasant, and welcome/appreciate discussion on it.

In many ways he is right though.... in a "typical" Western Society, we value individuals and individualism, on the flip side of that, most of the Eastern cultures I've been exposed to value the group over self.

For instance, a good army buddy of mine, from Hong Kong originally, married a "mainland" Chinese woman. before I left Fort Carson for Germany, he was seriously worried/stressed about what he was going to do about HER parents, as when he married her, it became his "responsibility" to house, feed and care for them in their retirement years. I know that doesn't sound so bad on the surface, but he was on soldier pay and it was doubtful whether he'd be granted a "special" dependent status for the in-laws. The craziest thing about the situation (from my point of view) was that her Dad was a multi-millionaire due to having owned one of the 3 largest beer brewers in China (I forgot which one it is, but it really is one of the richest within the country of China)

When I told that story to my buddy in Germany, who married a Japanese lady espoused much the same thing, and it was a source of friction between her and her parents (last I talked to him, that situation has died down some, with the understanding that if the means become available, they will uphold tradition)

So, while I agree, the sentiment of "European Culture" or "Asian Culture" is too broad in most sense, I think that it's OK to use the term when we're talking about the commonalities among us.

I totally agree with many of your points, but I want to stress that culture is very secular in nature, and has a very complicated, almost hegemonic, relationship with other cultures and "sects" or branches of itself.

for instance, much of my in laws are northern Chinese, who will very readily tell me how different the north vs south culture is in china!

In reply to your example, there was a time when you were *expected* to take care you your elderly parents and in laws in western culture as well so thats more those particular Chinese persons parents were more orthodox then most I would think., then that being a unique cultural trait.

about 50 of my in laws are Filipino, and they are also very adamant about how different they are from the Chinese.

I just find that when viewed from the perspective of an "outsider" that other cultures that are not familiar tend to blend together more then they should.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Culture and Medicine are just two such examples.

So, is Africa Western, or Eastern, or maybe neither, or both? Is Russia Western, or Eastern?

Just to be clear:

Somehow your brain can live with the concept that you call US culture European even though we are a completely different continent that manage not to touch anywhere with a giant ocean separating us, but Western breaks your brain because geography?

Do you lump Africa in with European or Asian culture? Or do you in fact realize that there are more than two groups of global cultures?

 d-usa wrote:
Just to be clear:

Somehow your brain can live with the concept that you call US culture European even though we are a completely different continent that manage not to touch anywhere with a giant ocean separating us

Yeah, given how the U.S.A. is populated by descendants of people that came from Europe.

 d-usa wrote:
Do you lump Africa in with European or Asian culture? Or do you in fact realize that there are more than two groups of global cultures?

I realize that there are more than two groups of global culture, unlike what “Western” implies.

I feel I have to return the favor: why do you have a problem with “European cultures”, but not with “Western cultures”?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Just to be clear:

Somehow your brain can live with the concept that you call US culture European even though we are a completely different continent that manage not to touch anywhere with a giant ocean separating us

Yeah, given how the U.S.A. is populated by descendants of people that came from Europe.

Is Ford a European automaker? Is Coca-Cola a European Company?

What percentage of our population is of non-European heritage?

 d-usa wrote:
Do you lump Africa in with European or Asian culture? Or do you in fact realize that there are more than two groups of global cultures?

I realize that there are more than two groups of global culture, unlike what “Western” implies.

Western implies no such thing, and has many different meanings in many different contexts.

In geography there is west and east. Of course something can be west of something at the same time as it is east of something. And at the same time it can also be south and north of something as well.

During the cold war you had the Eastern Bloc, was Africa West or East?

Does Russia have an European Culture or an Asian Culture? What continent is it located in?

I feel I have to return the favor: why do you have a problem with “European cultures”, but not with “Western cultures”?

Because it's asinine to call something by the name of another continent when it has developed independently of that other continent for 400+ years and has been influenced by African culture, indigenous cultures, Eastern cultures, and South-American cultures during those years.

Africa is neither European nor Asian, and neither a Western Culture nor an Eastern Culture.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

I feel I have to return the favor: why do you have a problem with “European cultures”, but not with “Western cultures”?

Because one actually exists and the other doesnt? As I sort of explained earlier, one of the most basic concepts that generally divide Eastern from Western cultures/societies is the role of "self" But, this term of East and West has been in use for centuries in nearly every academic form (politics, economics, history, etc)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
[
Does Russia have an European Culture or an Asian Culture? What continent is it located in?

Russia really is the oddball here.... Since probably the 18th-19th Centuries, Russia has really tried to push its way into being a proper "European" country, but for whatever reason, and there are hundreds, if not thousands to choose from, have remained much more in line with an "Eastern" culture/society.

 d-usa wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Just to be clear:

Somehow your brain can live with the concept that you call US culture European even though we are a completely different continent that manage not to touch anywhere with a giant ocean separating us

Yeah, given how the U.S.A. is populated by descendants of people that came from Europe.

Is Ford a European automaker? Is Coca-Cola a European Company?

What percentage of our population is of non-European heritage?

What percentage of Britain is non-british heritage, with the nordic and french influences?

How much of the french is roman?

If you want to play the descendant game, we're all just going to be African.

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Just to be clear:

Somehow your brain can live with the concept that you call US culture European even though we are a completely different continent that manage not to touch anywhere with a giant ocean separating us

Yeah, given how the U.S.A. is populated by descendants of people that came from Europe.

Is Ford a European automaker? Is Coca-Cola a European Company?

What percentage of our population is of non-European heritage?

What percentage of Britain is non-british heritage, with the nordic and french influences?

How much of the french is roman?

If you want to play the descendant game, we're all just going to be African.

Amazing how diverse culture has become since we first appeared in Africa 6,000 years ago

 djones520 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Just to be clear:

Somehow your brain can live with the concept that you call US culture European even though we are a completely different continent that manage not to touch anywhere with a giant ocean separating us

Yeah, given how the U.S.A. is populated by descendants of people that came from Europe.

Is Ford a European automaker? Is Coca-Cola a European Company?

What percentage of our population is of non-European heritage?

What percentage of Britain is non-british heritage, with the nordic and french influences?

How much of the french is roman?

If you want to play the descendant game, we're all just going to be African.

Which is why its best to limit politics to living memory (i.e. the last century).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Just to be clear:

Somehow your brain can live with the concept that you call US culture European even though we are a completely different continent that manage not to touch anywhere with a giant ocean separating us

Yeah, given how the U.S.A. is populated by descendants of people that came from Europe.

And Africa, and Asia, in addition to Native Americans.

(Oh and I know Europe has Jazz now too, that doesn't mean it's not originally a uniquely American art form).

 d-usa wrote:
What percentage of our population is of non-European heritage?

Well, what percentage of your population do you think is of non-European heritage? I am not even sure what you defined as heritage here.

 d-usa wrote:
During the cold war you had the Eastern Bloc, was Africa West or East?

Third world.

 d-usa wrote:
Does Russia have an European Culture or an Asian Culture?

European., mostly. With some Asian cultures that are also part of the country, like Tuvans.

 d-usa wrote:
What continent is it located in?

Both Europe and Asia.

 d-usa wrote:
Because it's asinine to call something by the name of another continent when it has developed independently of that other continent for 400+ years and has been influenced by African culture, indigenous cultures, Eastern cultures, and South-American cultures during those years.

And yet during all that time it had been influence much, much more by European cultures than by African, or Asian cultures, and it has influenced much, much more European cultures in return. It is also noteworthy that during that time period, many other European cultures have been similarly, or even more so, influenced by Asian and African cultures than the U.S.

And calling a culture “Western” when not saying on the west of what they are supposed to be, in denial of geography, is somehow less asinine?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hordini wrote:
And Africa, and Asia, in addition to Native Americans.

.
Did you know Europe also has a lot of people coming from Africa and Asia? I would not be that surprised if France had more people that came from Asia than the U.S., or at least a bigger ratio.

 Hordini wrote:
(Oh and I know Europe has Jazz now too, that doesn't mean it's not originally a uniquely American art form).

That is about as asinine as saying “I know Europe has french fries too now, but that does not mean it was not originally a uniquely Belgian/French dish”.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

And calling a culture “Western” when not saying on the west of what they are supposed to be, in denial of geography, is somehow less asinine?

It's almost like the people initially defining Western and Eastern cultures as two broad sets of cultures that are respectively West and East of each other based on almost all map projections, ancient and current, used by the people defining it somehow managed to solve this crisis without the difficulties that you imagine by the term.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
And Africa, and Asia, in addition to Native Americans.

.
Did you know Europe also has a lot of people coming from Africa and Asia? I would not be that surprised if France had more people that came from Asia than the U.S., or at least a bigger ratio.

 Hordini wrote:
(Oh and I know Europe has Jazz now too, that doesn't mean it's not originally a uniquely American art form).

That is about as asinine as saying “I know Europe has french fries too now, but that does not mean it was not originally a uniquely Belgian/French dish”.

I've actually lived in Europe, so yes, I'm aware there are people of African and Asian descent there. The ratio will vary depending on where in the US you are talking about, but there are way, way more Asians in the US than in France.

And saying that something originated in America but is now in Europe is as asinine as saying something originated in a European country and is still in Europe? Okay.

This has been going in circles for a while now, mostly off the original topic and just needs to die. If you want to start a discussion about if Europe is Europe is American is African is Western is Eastern, and you REALLY feel like it needs to be discussed (really think hard on that), then start a thread for it