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Made in se
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I... actually don't know. Help?

Well, it's just logic. Almost all weapons with two barrels are twin-linked (Lascannons, Combi-Bolters, Havoc Launchers etc) and it feels like a Multi-Melta should be. Anything to weigh up its poor range.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/01/22 15:16:39


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Storm bolters aren't twin linked, they're two shots.
   
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Between

Yes, please! Twin-link all my gorgeous meltaguns, that way I can get extra shots for having two of them on my Immolators!



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Agreed. I just don't see the point of having two barrels if it's not either twin-linked or fires multiple shots. If the point is to just be long range (for a melta), just have one barrel and call it a melta cannon ot something. Because there's nothing "multi" about the multi-melta. It doesn't fire multiple shots, it doesn't hit multiple targets.

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Between

It's multiple meltaguns firing together. Because of the nature of the melta blast, this results in a longer range rather than a larger effective area. Not hard to understand, really.



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Storm-Ravens have twin-linked multi-melta no?


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Between

There are plenty of things with twin-linked multi-meltas in the game. I think the OP wants multi-meltas to be inherently twin-linked.



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Actually i kinda wish MM was instead salvo. so we can move and shoot them. moving makes them work like a normal melta gun.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Between

I like that idea, I guess.



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 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's multiple meltaguns firing together. Because of the nature of the melta blast, this results in a longer range rather than a larger effective area. Not hard to understand, really.


It's quite difficult to understand, but only because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Here's the description of how a melta works from the 40k wikia:

"The Meltagun, also called a "Fusion Gun," "Melter," or "Cooker," is a powerful, short-ranged anti-armour weapon that produces an intense, energetic beam of heat in the tens of thousands of degrees Centigrade. The Melta Gun is used by the Space Marines, the troops of the Imperial Guard and other military forces of the Imperium of Man such as the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas. Melta Weapons emit devastatingly intense but short-ranged blasts of heat which can melt through almost any material. Most types of Melta Weapon like the Meltagun function by inducing highly pressurised gases from an ammunition canister into an unstable sub-molecular state which produces nuclear fusion and directing the resulting energies down the barrel. Melta Weapon usage is always accompanied by a distinctive hissing sound as the Melta beam boils away the water in the air, then a roaring blast as the beam reduces the target to charred scraps or molten slag."

If you have two barrels each firing a beam of energy, you're gonna end up with two beams firing the same distance, not one longer range beam. That doesn't even make sense. If I take a double barrel shotgun, wire the triggers, and fire both barrels at once, I don't get one longer blast of shot, I get twice the shot going the same distance. I don't see how this would be any difference with a double barrelled melta. Even if the two shots combined somehow after leaving the barrel, I don't see how that would result in doubled range after the fact. At best it would result in double the heat/energy. In that case, why not say, for example, that a multi-melta does 2d6 armor penetration at any range, and 3d6 at half range, or something like that?

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I find that meltas are generally pointed appropriately, making them shoot more or getting twin linked would be a strong buff.

Are you asking for them to get this buff for free or do you feel they should get a point increase for this?

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I... actually don't know. Help?

 fartherthanfar wrote:
I find that meltas are generally pointed appropriately, making them shoot more or getting twin linked would be a strong buff.

Are you asking for them to get this buff for free or do you feel they should get a point increase for this?


Maybe 5 points, but it'd be worth it. Oh, you should see my Helbrute MM to hit rolls.

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 fartherthanfar wrote:
I find that meltas are generally pointed appropriately, making them shoot more or getting twin linked would be a strong buff.

Are you asking for them to get this buff for free or do you feel they should get a point increase for this?


Hell, I think melta weapons are pointed just fine, too maybe even a little under-pointed. i think they work fine, too. I just don't think the multi-melta is modelled or named well for how it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matthew wrote:
 fartherthanfar wrote:
I find that meltas are generally pointed appropriately, making them shoot more or getting twin linked would be a strong buff.

Are you asking for them to get this buff for free or do you feel they should get a point increase for this?


Maybe 5 points, but it'd be worth it. Oh, you should see my Helbrute MM to hit rolls.


5 points for twin linked seems right to me. that's the difference between a lascannon and twin-linked lascannon, I believe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/22 20:57:35


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Scatter lasers have six barrels. Can they be sextuple-linked for free?

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scatter lasers have six barrels. Can they be sextuple-linked for free?


That comparison doesn't make sense. One, the Scatter Laser already fire 4 shots. Two, they have a chance of making other weapons twin-linked with Laser Lock. The six barrels make sense. The two barrels on a multi-melta don't

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All Tau Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines are double barrelled, I am down for this plan.


Of course you just turned a Multi-Melta into an expensive twin-linked Meltagun since you took away the reason for its extra range, so I'm not sure how this helps Multi-Meltas.

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AnFéasógMór wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's multiple meltaguns firing together. Because of the nature of the melta blast, this results in a longer range rather than a larger effective area. Not hard to understand, really.


It's quite difficult to understand, but only because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Here's the description of how a melta works from the 40k wikia:

"The Meltagun, also called a "Fusion Gun," "Melter," or "Cooker," is a powerful, short-ranged anti-armour weapon that produces an intense, energetic beam of heat in the tens of thousands of degrees Centigrade. The Melta Gun is used by the Space Marines, the troops of the Imperial Guard and other military forces of the Imperium of Man such as the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas. Melta Weapons emit devastatingly intense but short-ranged blasts of heat which can melt through almost any material. Most types of Melta Weapon like the Meltagun function by inducing highly pressurised gases from an ammunition canister into an unstable sub-molecular state which produces nuclear fusion and directing the resulting energies down the barrel. Melta Weapon usage is always accompanied by a distinctive hissing sound as the Melta beam boils away the water in the air, then a roaring blast as the beam reduces the target to charred scraps or molten slag."

If you have two barrels each firing a beam of energy, you're gonna end up with two beams firing the same distance, not one longer range beam. That doesn't even make sense. If I take a double barrel shotgun, wire the triggers, and fire both barrels at once, I don't get one longer blast of shot, I get twice the shot going the same distance. I don't see how this would be any difference with a double barrelled melta. Even if the two shots combined somehow after leaving the barrel, I don't see how that would result in doubled range after the fact. At best it would result in double the heat/energy. In that case, why not say, for example, that a multi-melta does 2d6 armor penetration at any range, and 3d6 at half range, or something like that?


Your assumption here is that the barrels of the Melta fire perfectly parallel. If we consider them firing at a slightly converging angle, then constructive interference could (conceivably) produce a beam of similar strength at a further distance-I refer you to the Death Star.

As a physicist myself, I'm not claiming that all of the physics involved in the Death Star laser is legit, but constructive interference is a thing and should work that way for energy weapons.
   
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Making mult-meltas twin linked is fine with me if they have the range of a normal meltagun.

The extra gun could either extend the range of the melta shot, or give another shot, conceptually, but not both.

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 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Making mult-meltas twin linked is fine with me if they have the range of a normal meltagun.

The extra gun could either extend the range of the melta shot, or give another shot, conceptually, but not both.


See, that's my main issue, is that conceptually, there's no way a second barrel would extend the shot. Personally, I like multi-meltas just how they are, rules wise. Love 'em actually. Would marry them, if plural marriages involving imaginary guns were legal here. I just don't like that the model has two barrels for no realistic reason. And I don't like the name. "Multi-melta" implies it either fires multiple shots or hits multiple targets. For me, I see two fixes.

1) Keep the rules the same, but change the model to have one barrel and call it a "melta cannon" or something like that, which actually makes sense.

or

2) Keep the model the same, but cut it to normal melta range, and make it either heavy 2 or blast, so the two barrels and the name make sense.

Personally, I favor #1. It's just the model that doesn't make sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
skolirvarden wrote:
AnFéasógMór wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's multiple meltaguns firing together. Because of the nature of the melta blast, this results in a longer range rather than a larger effective area. Not hard to understand, really.


It's quite difficult to understand, but only because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Here's the description of how a melta works from the 40k wikia:

"The Meltagun, also called a "Fusion Gun," "Melter," or "Cooker," is a powerful, short-ranged anti-armour weapon that produces an intense, energetic beam of heat in the tens of thousands of degrees Centigrade. The Melta Gun is used by the Space Marines, the troops of the Imperial Guard and other military forces of the Imperium of Man such as the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas. Melta Weapons emit devastatingly intense but short-ranged blasts of heat which can melt through almost any material. Most types of Melta Weapon like the Meltagun function by inducing highly pressurised gases from an ammunition canister into an unstable sub-molecular state which produces nuclear fusion and directing the resulting energies down the barrel. Melta Weapon usage is always accompanied by a distinctive hissing sound as the Melta beam boils away the water in the air, then a roaring blast as the beam reduces the target to charred scraps or molten slag."

If you have two barrels each firing a beam of energy, you're gonna end up with two beams firing the same distance, not one longer range beam. That doesn't even make sense. If I take a double barrel shotgun, wire the triggers, and fire both barrels at once, I don't get one longer blast of shot, I get twice the shot going the same distance. I don't see how this would be any difference with a double barrelled melta. Even if the two shots combined somehow after leaving the barrel, I don't see how that would result in doubled range after the fact. At best it would result in double the heat/energy. In that case, why not say, for example, that a multi-melta does 2d6 armor penetration at any range, and 3d6 at half range, or something like that?


Your assumption here is that the barrels of the Melta fire perfectly parallel. If we consider them firing at a slightly converging angle, then constructive interference could (conceivably) produce a beam of similar strength at a further distance-I refer you to the Death Star.

As a physicist myself, I'm not claiming that all of the physics involved in the Death Star laser is legit, but constructive interference is a thing and should work that way for energy weapons.


But that doesn't make sense! As I understand constructive interference, the two beams firing slightly off parallel to each other wouldn't produce one longer beam, it would simply produce a small overlapping area of increased heat and energy, while the majority of the energy wave still continued to travel in its original direction. But I'm not a physicist, so I'll defer to you on that one. Plus, I think we've devolved to the point that I'm expecting an unrealistic amount of realism from a game involving genetically enhanced Übermenschen fighting walking fungi in space.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 00:12:10


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But that doesn't make sense! As I understand constructive interference, the two beams firing slightly off parallel to each other wouldn't produce one longer beam, it would simply produce a small overlapping area of increased heat and energy, while the majority of the energy wave still continued to travel in its original direction. But I'm not a physicist, so I'll defer to you on that one. Plus, I think we've devolved to the point that I'm expecting an unrealistic amount of realism from a game involving genetically enhanced Übermenschen fighting walking fungi in space.


This is true, it doesn't fundamentally produce a longer beam. But you're treating this as if the Melta suddenly cuts off after 12 inches (scale appropriately, obviously ). My understanding here would be that outside of 12 inches, the melta beam weakens enough that it is no longer effective as a weapon (which sort of makes sense when you consider that at half range it is more effective at popping tanks). So the constructive interference increases the strength of the beam past 12 inches to an amount where it is sufficiently strong to still do damage.

Indeed, normally it would just be a small area, but if we factor in momentum transfer (because it seems that a Melta is half laser, half plasma), it is possible for two converging beams to produce one (mostly) straight beam.

And yes, I think we're now expecting too much realism. I think the multi-melta should have two profiles-one shot at long range, or two at shorter range, much like rapid fire weapons (although still be constrained by heavy weapon rules) to represent the effect of two barrels
   
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skolirvarden wrote:
But that doesn't make sense! As I understand constructive interference, the two beams firing slightly off parallel to each other wouldn't produce one longer beam, it would simply produce a small overlapping area of increased heat and energy, while the majority of the energy wave still continued to travel in its original direction. But I'm not a physicist, so I'll defer to you on that one. Plus, I think we've devolved to the point that I'm expecting an unrealistic amount of realism from a game involving genetically enhanced Übermenschen fighting walking fungi in space.


This is true, it doesn't fundamentally produce a longer beam. But you're treating this as if the Melta suddenly cuts off after 12 inches (scale appropriately, obviously ). My understanding here would be that outside of 12 inches, the melta beam weakens enough that it is no longer effective as a weapon (which sort of makes sense when you consider that at half range it is more effective at popping tanks). So the constructive interference increases the strength of the beam past 12 inches to an amount where it is sufficiently strong to still do damage.

Indeed, normally it would just be a small area, but if we factor in momentum transfer (because it seems that a Melta is half laser, half plasma), it is possible for two converging beams to produce one (mostly) straight beam.

And yes, I think we're now expecting too much realism. I think the multi-melta should have two profiles-one shot at long range, or two at shorter range, much like rapid fire weapons (although still be constrained by heavy weapon rules) to represent the effect of two barrels


Now that is an interesting idea. The question there would be how be how you work the melta rule at half range. At 12", would you have a choice between making two shots without 2d6 for armor pen, or one shot with 2d6? Would you still be able to get 2d6 on both shots if you rapid fired it at 6"? That could actually be a great weapon, but the profile would look confusing as crap.

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AnFéasógMór wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scatter lasers have six barrels. Can they be sextuple-linked for free?


That comparison doesn't make sense.

It makes as much sense as your justification for this proposed rule.

If you want multimeltas to be better, say so.

Don't hide behind insane logic that more barrels equals twin-linked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 02:54:38


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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 DarknessEternal wrote:
AnFéasógMór wrote:
 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scatter lasers have six barrels. Can they be sextuple-linked for free?


That comparison doesn't make sense.

It makes as much sense as your justification for this proposed rule.

If you want multimeltas to be better, say so.

Don't hide behind insane logic that more barrels equals twin-linked.


Maybe read my post properly and actually understand the logic, before you build up a strawman to criticize. I never said two barrels should mean twin-linked, full stop, no extra points, etc. etc. I said it should be twin-linked, or blast, or fire multiple shots, something to justify the presence of two barrels on the model. The point that I made in the rest of the quote you so skillfully cherry-picked was that the scatter laser's rules reflect the multiple barrels. I also never said I wanted multi-meltas to be better, in fact I clearly stated that I like them as they are, and agreed that if they did fire multiple shots, it should be at the expense of the range. My main point was that I dislike the model design for multi-meltas. Shenanigans about constructive interference aside, the model doesn't really make sense for a gun that fires a single shot.

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Sooooo.... what about Karamazov?


It's currently a master-crafted Multimelta. What would you make his triple multi-melta? Heavy 2 twin-linked? Heavy 3?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 04:40:04


   
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 J3f wrote:
Sooooo.... what about Karamazov?


It's currently a master-crafted Multimelta. What would you make his triple multi-melta? Heavy 2 twin-linked? Heavy 3?


In that case, I would assume that the third barrel accounts for the master-crafted ability to reroll 1s.

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AnFéasógMór wrote:

it doesn't make a lick of sense.


Lip of faith.

Kinda irrelevant


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anywayz, multimeltas make sence cause that's how melta blast works. The more matter - the longer it takes to cool down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/23 10:04:50


 
   
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 koooaei wrote:

Anywayz, multimeltas make sence cause that's how melta blast works. The more matter - the longer it takes to cool down.


This bit gets my vote on why they should be twin-linked.

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So, you want them to be tl 12' range?
   
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Between

Jefffar wrote:
All Tau Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines are double barrelled, I am down for this plan.


Of course you just turned a Multi-Melta into an expensive twin-linked Meltagun since you took away the reason for its extra range, so I'm not sure how this helps Multi-Meltas.


... Multi-meltas cost the same number of points as meltaguns, because it's a direct trade - range for mobility.



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 koooaei wrote:
So, you want them to be tl 12' range?


Mmm, tricky that one.

From a rules perspective it would make it less OP, give a little, take a little - essentially leaving it in the semi-awkward slot it currently occupies.

From my perspective trying to loosely relate it to what may happen in reality, hmm.

The amount of thermal energy is doubled, but it would be the same temperature as it's not cumulative. The twin linking simulates the likelihood of this larger wave of thermal energy impacting upon the target.

Would this mean a greater range? No. It would mean a wider area of effect, but that's not included in the weapons rules or relevant.


For these reasons I'm likely to say 12' with TL standard seems fair, except for the fact that other vehicles with the same weapon have a longer range and TL.

So: TL and current range but perhaps a higher base cost?

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