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I think we need some more parameters on how the fight would be organized. There's a lot of circumstances where A beats B and B beats C only to have C beat B. Can we get a point limit or maybe what special rules can and can't be used or something?

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
I think we need some more parameters on how the fight would be organized. There's a lot of circumstances where A beats B and B beats C only to have C beat B. Can we get a point limit or maybe what special rules can and can't be used or something?

Well, standard 5 man DW Knights are 235 points, so that should be the start is equal points.

It's entirely dependant on the details.

In Game:
a) Normal Wolf Guard Terminators versus normal Deathwing Terminators (i.e. stock unit entry) isn't a fair fight, because unless all those power weapons are axes, they're no match for a power fist in a fight between models with a 2+ save.

b) Both units are ridiculously customisable, but the Wolf Guard Terminators slightly more so. If you're going to pull out the example of a squad entirely armed with combi-plasma and power axe (or similar) then thank you and good night.

In the background, Deathwing are probably more experienced marine-on-marine fighters (because it's the main thing they train to do) whilst the wolf guard are more naturally gifted fighters overall (because the Deathwing is recruiting to additional secret criteria than just the best fighters - hence why some of the most gifted fighters in the chapter may spend their days as a company veteran if not judged morally 'ready').

 Wyzilla wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not try it out on TT?

I'm pretty sure there wouldn't even be a contest in melee given smite mode, and it's not like Space Wolves can shoot well either.

Yeah, any time DW use smite it's basically an instant win. Hitting on initiative means you'll wipe out just about any unit before it can even touch you, extreme luck excluded.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not try it out on TT?

I'm pretty sure there wouldn't even be a contest in melee given smite mode, and it's not like Space Wolves can shoot well either.

Yeah, any time DW use smite it's basically an instant win. Hitting on initiative means you'll wipe out just about any unit before it can even touch you, extreme luck excluded.

Throw in an Interrogator Chaplain and Smite on charge plus Hatred is deadly.

 koooaei wrote:

 anyeri wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not try it out on TT?

Already done, a single PA Lone wolf with SS and TH kill three DW knights, and survive their super saiya mode just to wreck their faces,in fact, the DA player thougt that he could kill my lone wolf with only the "normal" attacks and with the flail of the sgt (its ap3 if my memorie doesnt fail) but after two rounds and three death nights, he became deparate and activate the smite mode (he was saving it form y thunder wolve calvary, the toughtest unit i had in the game) my lone wolve make all his 3++ saves and tied the combat for another round, the next round fail his sv and fnp for a glorious death.
So for the rest of the game, my calvary wreck his RW knights and proceed to feed on with his tacticals, my second lone wolf, with TDA SS and TH, tied the whole game in a b slap contest with the interrogator chaplain (with TDA and fancy relic)
It was a glorious win for the Space wolves

That's definitely not a Wolf Guard on Deathwing fight. That's just one lucky guy who's NOT a WG killing way above average and rolling all the 3++. Doesn't support WG in any way.

I give you that, and it wanst luck, the same had happen a lot of games, where a single lone wolf can tied a unit of knights (the DA player is one of the guys i play againts a lot) and the example it was to show that the knights are not so impressive as people use to think, they are good, i give you that, but in a fight where a single model could tied and kill some squad members, that mean something for the wolves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not try it out on TT?

I'm pretty sure there wouldn't even be a contest in melee given smite mode, and it's not like Space Wolves can shoot well either.

Yeah, any time DW use smite it's basically an instant win. Hitting on initiative means you'll wipe out just about any unit before it can even touch you, extreme luck excluded.

Throw in an Interrogator Chaplain and Smite on charge plus Hatred is deadly.

Well if we put characters, then things change, i give you the shield brothers: Arjack+ 5 Th SS Terminator WG (lets not forget about my free S8 ap2 couterhits and the T5) then if we add a Wolf priest equipped with the wulfen stone and charging (dont forget that my shield brothers can carrie a thypoon ml and Arjack have his S10 hammerboorang) its a meat grinder unit

 anyeri wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not try it out on TT?

I'm pretty sure there wouldn't even be a contest in melee given smite mode, and it's not like Space Wolves can shoot well either.

Yeah, any time DW use smite it's basically an instant win. Hitting on initiative means you'll wipe out just about any unit before it can even touch you, extreme luck excluded.

Throw in an Interrogator Chaplain and Smite on charge plus Hatred is deadly.

Well if we put characters, then things change, i give you the shield brothers: Arjack+ 5 Th SS Terminator WG (lets not forget about my free S8 ap2 couterhits and the T5) then if we add a Wolf priest equipped with the wulfen stone and charging (dont forget that my shield brothers can carrie a thypoon ml and Arjack have his S10 hammerboorang) its a meat grinder unit

Points? I think I can get something equally comparable

Depends on the parameters.

a) Duel one on one?

b) Duel squad on squad?

c) Shooting or melee or both?

WG are way more flexible. In a squad of 5, I can swap out 3 power weapons for 3 SS at no cost. Equip the rest with combi-plasma and one guy with a power fist or power claw or whatever is needed.

WG's flexiblity cannot be denied. The possiblity of mixing melee and shooting inside the same squad is a big advantage.

If we are talking about fluff it depends. Some DW can probably beat some WG and some WG can probably beat some DW.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Depends on the parameters.

a) Duel one on one?

b) Duel squad on squad?

c) Shooting or melee or both?

WG are way more flexible. In a squad of 5, I can swap out 3 power weapons for 3 SS at no cost. Equip the rest with combi-plasma and one guy with a power fist or power claw or whatever is needed.

WG's flexiblity cannot be denied. The possiblity of mixing melee and shooting inside the same squad is a big advantage.

If we are talking about fluff it depends. Some DW can probably beat some WG and some WG can probably beat some DW.

Agreed. DW specialty lie in doing one thing well, such as DSing with TL shots for lots of Dakka and Knights for MC/DP hunting or occasionally wrecking a vehicle then jumping back in a LR to go hunt something else. I think WG do a better all around job as you can take something for any situation.

I think fluff is a moot point as a judge of who is better. Both are portrayed as being overly badass because the only real stories about them are in their own codex. Its not like your going to read about a DW vs. WG fight in the Eldar codex where the Farseer just sits back and says... "Lets just see how this plays out shall we, not that I dont already know mind you, but it might be fun to watch."

 Mr.Omega wrote:
On the table, Deathwing have Knights that would annihilate Wolf Guard, flexibility and absurdly powerful yet expensive banners that would give them the edge.

In the fluff, Wolves would win. The Wolf Guard are just that merciless and nasty that I'm certain they would somehow manage to ruin the Deathwing. The Dark Angels leadership are mediocre, unimpressive saps by 40k standards, Logan Grimnar's grasp of strategy and his cunning would just piss all over Belial, and he'd flatten him into paste in a duel if it came to that as well.

Fluff? In the fluff, Belial held off an Interrogator Chaplain for 11 minutes BEFORE he was an Astartes. Azrael is also one of the best strategists in the Imperium, he is definitely equal to Grimnar if not better. The only people in the Imperium that are objectively better strategists than Azrael are Creed, Calgar and Dante.

natpri771 wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
On the table, Deathwing have Knights that would annihilate Wolf Guard, flexibility and absurdly powerful yet expensive banners that would give them the edge.

In the fluff, Wolves would win. The Wolf Guard are just that merciless and nasty that I'm certain they would somehow manage to ruin the Deathwing. The Dark Angels leadership are mediocre, unimpressive saps by 40k standards, Logan Grimnar's grasp of strategy and his cunning would just piss all over Belial, and he'd flatten him into paste in a duel if it came to that as well.

Fluff? In the fluff, Belial held off an Interrogator Chaplain for 11 minutes BEFORE he was an Astartes. Azrael is also one of the best strategists in the Imperium, he is definitely equal to Grimnar if not better. The only people in the Imperium that are objectively better strategists than Azrael are Creed, Calgar and Dante.

Like Jayden63 said, Fluff is a moot point and shouldn't be taken into judgement. Not to mention this thread is about Deathwing and Wolf Guard so arguing about characters that have no bearing here is pretty much completely pointless. Especially as writers are always going to have different opinions and ways of using certain characters so in the end it's all a big pissing contest.

jreilly89 summed it up. DW are great at one thing and they do it really, really well but if you need a group that's more of a Jack of all trades, King of none, then you want to call the WG.

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

natpri771 wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
On the table, Deathwing have Knights that would annihilate Wolf Guard, flexibility and absurdly powerful yet expensive banners that would give them the edge.

In the fluff, Wolves would win. The Wolf Guard are just that merciless and nasty that I'm certain they would somehow manage to ruin the Deathwing. The Dark Angels leadership are mediocre, unimpressive saps by 40k standards, Logan Grimnar's grasp of strategy and his cunning would just piss all over Belial, and he'd flatten him into paste in a duel if it came to that as well.

Fluff? In the fluff, Belial held off an Interrogator Chaplain for 11 minutes BEFORE he was an Astartes. Azrael is also one of the best strategists in the Imperium, he is definitely equal to Grimnar if not better. The only people in the Imperium that are objectively better strategists than Azrael are Creed, Calgar and Dante.

Like Jayden63 said, Fluff is a moot point and shouldn't be taken into judgement. Not to mention this thread is about Deathwing and Wolf Guard so arguing about characters that have no bearing here is pretty much completely pointless. Especially as writers are always going to have different opinions and ways of using certain characters so in the end it's all a big pissing contest.

Well, to that end, I think the SW win

I will never understand why people think deathwing knights are so good, and I'm a deathwing player with a squad of knights. Yes the smite attack out of a raider is awesome, but then there just meh... AP 4 just doesn't cut it on an elite close combat squad.

DW, as a unit, has more tactical options. A DW terminator vs a WG terminator, the special rules the deathwing have is suppose to represent them being a little 'extra elite'. I would go DW, at least fluff wise, but I'm biased.

Please, let's settle this like the God-Emperor would. I'm unbiased, so I can help this along. Here's how we do this. The TT battle is this.

One squad of WG (five men) VERSUS one squad of DW (not knights, regular DW, five men)

Four upgrades each. No Independent Characters. Five games to test results. Upgrades may be changed between battles, however there may only be four at any one time. Dawn of War deployment.

For the fluff, we use the poll. When said poll reaches a certain amount of votes, let's say 200, we look at which side wins. It's the only reasonable way to compare fluff. Fluff is REALLY hard to compare, especially when comparing from two different codexes.

Corny wrote:
I will never understand why people think deathwing knights are so good, and I'm a deathwing player with a squad of knights. Yes the smite attack out of a raider is awesome, but then there just meh... AP 4 just doesn't cut it on an elite close combat squad.

DW, as a unit, has more tactical options. A DW terminator vs a WG terminator, the special rules the deathwing have is suppose to represent them being a little 'extra elite'. I would go DW, at least fluff wise, but I'm biased.

Usually you only need one turn to destroy something. Still, the Knight Master is AP3 and and everyone else is S6 AP4 at Initative, plus it goes down 1 AP when fighting CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FavilleGamingAndTCG wrote:
Please, let's settle this like the God-Emperor would. I'm unbiased, so I can help this along. Here's how we do this. The TT battle is this.

One squad of WG (five men) VERSUS one squad of DW (not knights, regular DW, five men)

Four upgrades each. No Independent Characters. Five games to test results. Upgrades may be changed between battles, however there may only be four at any one time. Dawn of War deployment.

For the fluff, we use the poll. When said poll reaches a certain amount of votes, let's say 200, we look at which side wins. It's the only reasonable way to compare fluff. Fluff is REALLY hard to compare, especially when comparing from two different codexes.

DW can only take 1 upgrade per 5 man squad, i.e. a CML, Plasma Cannon. They can swap out for TH/SS or Lightning Claws though

 jreilly89 wrote:

 anyeri wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not try it out on TT?

I'm pretty sure there wouldn't even be a contest in melee given smite mode, and it's not like Space Wolves can shoot well either.

Yeah, any time DW use smite it's basically an instant win. Hitting on initiative means you'll wipe out just about any unit before it can even touch you, extreme luck excluded.

Throw in an Interrogator Chaplain and Smite on charge plus Hatred is deadly.

Well if we put characters, then things change, i give you the shield brothers: Arjack+ 5 Th SS Terminator WG (lets not forget about my free S8 ap2 couterhits and the T5) then if we add a Wolf priest equipped with the wulfen stone and charging (dont forget that my shield brothers can carrie a thypoon ml and Arjack have his S10 hammerboorang) its a meat grinder unit

Points? I think I can get something equally comparable

I think i got a littel excited here , thast li 600 point , because the formation need a lanrainder crusader as a requirament, besides the wulfen stone cannot be used in this formation, becuase is a relic from codex SW, you need the champions of fenris to use the formation and then there is no relic like the wulfen stone there, sorry
In this case, the shield brothers with Arjack and a rune priest (ML 2 and the krakenbone sword, ap2 at normal ini) with the landraider crusader is around 735 , told ya i got a little exicted with this one juar juar juar

Fluffwise they are probably equal. Both are elite terminator units famous for single-handedly turning battles.

On the tt it really depends on weapons, and who rolls worse.

Wolfguard from CoF with combi-plasmas and poweraxes would beat their equivalent cost in normal DW terminators.

Arjak and co. are also worth mentioning.

DW would have to rely on their knights to compete, but they stand a good chance of matching/beating the competition.

I abstain, there are too many variables.

Us wolves have the advantage of cheaper terminators and more flexible weapon options. The ability to lead sqauds of power armoured marines with our termies is cool too. But honestly in a straight fight, pure terminators equal points - my money is on the deathwing. Terminators are one of the DA's sterngths after all.

We could have a battle of averages?