Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

belial confuses me as an HQ because hes really a joke. and im just trying to understand why people keep taking him when hes so bloody inferior to lots of alternatives. hes 190 points and doesnt pay for the following items: th/ss, lcs, or a relic power sword, and a master craft storm bolter.

now lets look at the company master ya know the thing nobody would touch with a 10 foot pole because " you can have belial or azreal ". now im not out to contest azreal as he has other things going on and so im going to leave him be:

hes 90 points and has the exact same statline (before wargear) as belial. and the sad part is you can mimic or exceed any loadouts for belial with the company master for CHEAPER. to demonstrate ill use the one everyone seems to enjoy thundernator belial which is 190 points.

company master (90)
artifices armor (20)
thunder hammer (30)
displacer field (25)

so now im at 165 points, i am 25 points cheaper than belial and i have the exact same statline post wargear as belial. and now i can buy a jump pack or an PRoTU, or a combi weapon, or a variety of other wargear options and start to basically be trading in my no deepstrike or terminators as troops for far more useful things like retaining my ability to shoot, 12" movement phases, hammer of wrath, adamantium will, fear, master crafted, and some other things. if you wanted too you could just as easily mimic belial's other weapon loadouts and ignore bringing it making him even cheaper such as lcs(a savings of 30 points*), or MoR/MhoC (if your a gambling man) & storm bolter (a savings of 20 - 5 points*)
* = in addition to the 25 points of base savings

now there are some differences and pros and cons toeach one ill go over question marks denote things i will discuss:

belial pros: terminators as troops??, deepstrike (with no scatter)??, deathwing assault
belial cons: deepstrike, deathwing as troops, expensive, terrible loadout options

company master pros: cheaper, flexible in loadout, will always have a shooting phase (unless wielding multiple lightning claws), no bulky
cons: displacement (when mimicking thundernator), no deathwing as troops??, no DWA??

belial and his company master kin are actually on pretty even footing when you think about it really in the context of 7th edition. belial has deepstrike that will never scatter but deepstrike is always a huge risk, your basically giving the enemy a turn to shoot at you and steal the charge bonuses from the squad he is attached too which is bad news for terminators since their a CC unit by nature and any time they cant milk their CC advantages for all their worth can be fatal to them. and deathwing as troops is bad because terminators are absolutely terrible, their a clunky unit to take across a field and if youve failed to neutralize the enemies big guns in an efficient manor (or at least mangle them badly) your going to pay the price in losing huge chunks of your army every turn those guns keep firing. and while any additional backup units can deepstrike in to any spot on the battlefield this does little to alleviate the situation if all their buddies are getting decimated out there while their sitting on the bench and yes he has a twin linked storm bolter when deepstriking, he only get that when hes rocking his sword and gun which is perhaps his worst loadout of the options available to him

on the other side of the table the company master is plagued by some other problems but they actually are fairly situation specific. when going thundernator (as noted above) he has displacement which yes can be a pain but their arent that many situations beyond dueling other warlords or fighting elite choice melee oriented units where your going to run into ap2 weapons requiring him to displace, and since hes only 1 slot in a transport in this loadout he can fit into any transport he wants too unlike belial who will only ride dwv's meaning you can protect him with a vehicle at least for a little while minimizing his exposure to ap2 weapons so really scattering wont be that common. and as noted you can use a plethora of alternative loadouts to not-thundernator and simply ignore this downside entirely. and yes while he cant deepstrike, i can buy him a jump pack in any loutout i want, come in roughly the same pooints as belial and now i have 12" move and hammer of wrath so really i havent lost much, he can also fit into a drop pod if you really wanted too. and yes he doesnt have deathwing assault and no scatter deepstrike but he's not tied down by his warlord trait meaning you can get something a heck of a lot more useful than "the hunt" which is the absolute worst warlord trait on the codex table.

so really in the end i think belial is terrible as an hq choice and i dont see why anyone in their right mind would bother with him,

Because you have to be crazy to play dark Angels anyways so why not go full slow and play the charachter lol

The first time you loose cause your 500 pt termie squad mishapped, you'll see why people take Belial.

Teleport homer (not his no scatter thing).

Str 8 and 3++.

When put in a landraider he can bring the rest of the DW in accurately.

Besides these Azrael is probably a better choice.

Regarding belials point cost, it is correct when compared to a normal SM captain.

The problem is terminator captains are not all the useful.

I have seen him be pretty resilient. I face him all the time and have a harder time with him and his DW than I do the RW and their guy. Unfortunately it suffers from a lack of secondary punch.

I don't think of him as a special character. I am not a fan of having to take HQs and if I had the choice I never would. Therefore you have to look at him, not for his statline and his equipment. As you say, he isn't that much to look at compared to a similarly equipped captain. What he brings is all his special rules which unlock and boost the rest of the army, which effectively makes it a different force than a standard marine army.

Like I said, this is a double edged sword as I find it hits really hard when it comes in. But if it doesn't win on entry, the army slogs down and is easily picked apart. RW has the opposite problem if you use their special rules, they come in piecemeal, do damage and die. So both of these units suffer depending on the player by special ruleitis. Players get fixated on the special rules and cant cope well in scenarios that the special rules are a detriment.

See, I actually think Belial is pretty close to what a SC *should* be.

There are reasons to take him (aside from fluff), but none of them are overwhelming.

To me, that is infinitely preferable to many of the SCs we have these days - which are just outright better than any standard HQ. That is something I really despise.

My one complaint (and this comes back to the above) would be that I never liked when a SC allows a FoC swap that none of the regular HQs can match. You shouldn't need a SC just to play a particular style of army.

Personally though, I would like SCs to be changed completely. I would like more options (real options - not more false ones) for regular characters, and for SCs to just be predefined builds for said characters.

 koooaei wrote:
The first time you loose cause your 500 pt termie squad mishapped, you'll see why people take Belial.

and why exactly did you risk 500 points of terminator on a deepstrike sir? was that a smart decision on your part?

 ionusx wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The first time you loose cause your 500 pt termie squad mishapped, you'll see why people take Belial.

and why exactly did you risk 500 points of terminator on a deepstrike sir? was that a smart decision on your part?

The point is that Belial enables you to preform deep strikes that are otherwise insanely risky.

 ionusx wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The first time you loose cause your 500 pt termie squad mishapped, you'll see why people take Belial.

and why exactly did you risk 500 points of terminator on a deepstrike sir? was that a smart decision on your part?

Sounds like someone has had some bad luck with terminators. Not having to worry about scattering makes it much easier to find a use for them. They could be kitted out with combi melta, and DS next to something big and nasty. DS wherever you want with no worries of mishap is nice.

Belial is a great HQ unit. maybe he doesn't come out to play in smaller games but when 10 termies or DW knights plus Belial and Int Chaplain drop into the back field with no scatter it can literally turn a game around.

Ok he's not perfect but no character should be. If all we have is OP HQs then for me the game loses its fun.

Also push him against a MC like a wraithknight - fleshbane AP3 at in 5 is cool. Yes TH can smash but it is unwieldy.

Not to mention precision shots on a 5+.

 Jazzhands wrote:
Belial is a great HQ unit. maybe he doesn't come out to play in smaller games but when 10 termies or DW knights plus Belial and Int Chaplain drop into the back field with no scatter it can literally turn a game around.

Ok he's not perfect but no character should be. If all we have is OP HQs then for me the game loses its fun.

Also push him against a MC like a wraithknight - fleshbane AP3 at in 5 is cool. Yes TH can smash but it is unwieldy.

Not to mention precision shots on a 5+.

He isnt bad at all...Like any unit, you just need to know how to use him....People are used to having a "Point'n shoot" unit that is easy to use

DaKKaLAnce wrote:

 Jazzhands wrote:
Belial is a great HQ unit. maybe he doesn't come out to play in smaller games but when 10 termies or DW knights plus Belial and Int Chaplain drop into the back field with no scatter it can literally turn a game around.

Ok he's not perfect but no character should be. If all we have is OP HQs then for me the game loses its fun.

Also push him against a MC like a wraithknight - fleshbane AP3 at in 5 is cool. Yes TH can smash but it is unwieldy.

Not to mention precision shots on a 5+.

He isnt bad at all...Like any unit, you just need to know how to use him....People are used to having a "Point'n shoot" unit that is easy to use

I think that goes for most of the DA codex!
But most people would rather just slag off the codex rather than stick with it. I've had some great builds with it.

 Jazzhands wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:

 Jazzhands wrote:
Belial is a great HQ unit. maybe he doesn't come out to play in smaller games but when 10 termies or DW knights plus Belial and Int Chaplain drop into the back field with no scatter it can literally turn a game around.

Ok he's not perfect but no character should be. If all we have is OP HQs then for me the game loses its fun.

Also push him against a MC like a wraithknight - fleshbane AP3 at in 5 is cool. Yes TH can smash but it is unwieldy.

Not to mention precision shots on a 5+.

He isnt bad at all...Like any unit, you just need to know how to use him....People are used to having a "Point'n shoot" unit that is easy to use

I think that goes for most of the DA codex!
But most people would rather just slag off the codex rather than stick with it. I've had some great builds with it.

I love Dark Angels, but the statistics don't lie...Torrent of Fire all time stats show DA in 17th of 17 armies for win percentage -- at 36.3% (as of January 16th). And they're trending downwards -- in the last three months, total win percentage of 14%, based on a terribly small sample size (i.e., pretty much everyone has given up on them for competitive play).

BUT -- when I want to play a fun game and not care about whether I win, you know Belial and his buddies are gonna hit the table. Nothing like that T1 deep alpha strike!

DA are IMO low-mid tier, they have overall good I'm codex balance, with the terminators and veterans being a little lack luster. No big threats. Da are the eldar of SM with all their little tricks

Belial needs just one fix: make the gorramn Sword of Secrets AP2 like Sammael's sword. For 190 points, I shouldn't have to worry about armor saves from some scrub in close combat. Honestly, I can swallow all the other things that make Deathwing so challenging except that one minor detail.

I'm fine with Belial being ap3, he is the best MC hunter out there (in a unit of DWK) and when that pesky 2+ cc units hits Him smite mode time. Your T8 wraith Knight? Lawl 2+ wounds no armor lololol.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Belial needs just one fix: make the gorramn Sword of Secrets AP2 like Sammael's sword. For 190 points, I shouldn't have to worry about armor saves from some scrub in close combat. Honestly, I can swallow all the other things that make Deathwing so challenging except that one minor detail.

I honestly don't see why his sword should be AP2. If you want AP2, you have the option of a Thunderhammer.

 vipoid wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Belial needs just one fix: make the gorramn Sword of Secrets AP2 like Sammael's sword. For 190 points, I shouldn't have to worry about armor saves from some scrub in close combat. Honestly, I can swallow all the other things that make Deathwing so challenging except that one minor detail.

I honestly don't see why his sword should be AP2. If you want AP2, you have the option of a Thunderhammer.

Because I pay for his stats and I don't need S8 because his sword has Fleshbane. If I swap a thunder-hammer for what should be his iconic weapon, I'm wasting his initiative. The point is that he's the fething Captain of the fething First Company of the mother-fething First Legion. The Master of the Forge can't make his sword just a little bit sharper?!

^ mephiston sword is ap 3. Why should belial get one that is ap2? (IMO they both should)

DayOne916123 wrote:
Because you have to be crazy to play dark Angels anyways so why not go full slow and play the charachter lol

"You went full slow. You never go full slow!"

 the_Armyman wrote:

Because I pay for his stats and I don't need S8 because his sword has Fleshbane. If I swap a thunder-hammer for what should be his iconic weapon, I'm wasting his initiative.

But you're not taking the thunderhammer for S8 - you're taking it for AP2. And getting a 3++ thrown into the bargain.

Here's the thing - SCs don't generally have this option at all. many just have their weapon (whatever its AP) and no alternative. e.g. the new Trazyn is stuck with a glorified Power Maul. I'd love to be able to swap that out for a Thunder Hammer (even without the storm shield).

Hell, my Archon isn't allowed any AP2 whatsoever. Not even a Power Axe. The best he's allowed costs as much as a Power Fist and is a Poison 4+ AP3 weapon.

And bear in mind that these aren't support HQs - they don't buff squads, they don't unlock troops, they're just beatsticks with really awful weapons.

So, I fear I can't really sympathise with your character who has either a MC Fleshbane AP3 sword, or a S8 AP2 thunderhammer plus a 3++ storm shield.

 ionusx wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
The first time you loose cause your 500 pt termie squad mishapped, you'll see why people take Belial.

and why exactly did you risk 500 points of terminator on a deepstrike sir? was that a smart decision on your part?

Why do you create a thread about uses of a termie-supportive character if you hate termies in the first place?

 the_Armyman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Belial needs just one fix: make the gorramn Sword of Secrets AP2 like Sammael's sword. For 190 points, I shouldn't have to worry about armor saves from some scrub in close combat. Honestly, I can swallow all the other things that make Deathwing so challenging except that one minor detail.

I honestly don't see why his sword should be AP2. If you want AP2, you have the option of a Thunderhammer.

Because I pay for his stats and I don't need S8 because his sword has Fleshbane. If I swap a thunder-hammer for what should be his iconic weapon, I'm wasting his initiative. The point is that he's the fething Captain of the fething First Company of the mother-fething First Legion. The Master of the Forge can't make his sword just a little bit sharper?!

Even if the sword was ap2, the hammer and shield would still be a better all round choice.

Str 8 compared to fleshbane functions the same in most cases, as there really aren't many T7-10 models out there.
What there are more of is models with an AV value, or weapons that ignore 2+ saves, both of which the th/ss is better against.

Really though this issue is redundant, as belial's problems do not stem from his wargear, but rather from the fact that he is a terminator captain - who are inherently redundant and overcosted for what they can do.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Belial needs just one fix: make the gorramn Sword of Secrets AP2 like Sammael's sword. For 190 points, I shouldn't have to worry about armor saves from some scrub in close combat. Honestly, I can swallow all the other things that make Deathwing so challenging except that one minor detail.

I honestly don't see why his sword should be AP2. If you want AP2, you have the option of a Thunderhammer.

Because I pay for his stats and I don't need S8 because his sword has Fleshbane. If I swap a thunder-hammer for what should be his iconic weapon, I'm wasting his initiative. The point is that he's the fething Captain of the fething First Company of the mother-fething First Legion. The Master of the Forge can't make his sword just a little bit sharper?!

Even if the sword was ap2, the hammer and shield would still be a better all round choice.

Str 8 compared to fleshbane functions the same in most cases, as there really aren't many T7-10 models out there.
What there are more of is models with an AV value, or weapons that ignore 2+ saves, both of which the th/ss is better against.

Really though this issue is redundant, as belial's problems do not stem from his wargear, but rather from the fact that he is a terminator captain - who are inherently redundant and overcosted for what they can do.

Nope. S8 is often better, as it can cause ID on many HQs. That's why Belial will always lose against tooled-up Marine HQs: they'll have a 2+ save he can't beat, have S8 to ID him, and often a better invuln.
All this for the same cost .
The reason I take Belial is to precison Deep Strike deathwing knights: in melee, he's waaaaay too lackluster.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Belial needs just one fix: make the gorramn Sword of Secrets AP2 like Sammael's sword. For 190 points, I shouldn't have to worry about armor saves from some scrub in close combat. Honestly, I can swallow all the other things that make Deathwing so challenging except that one minor detail.

I honestly don't see why his sword should be AP2. If you want AP2, you have the option of a Thunderhammer.

Because I pay for his stats and I don't need S8 because his sword has Fleshbane. If I swap a thunder-hammer for what should be his iconic weapon, I'm wasting his initiative. The point is that he's the fething Captain of the fething First Company of the mother-fething First Legion. The Master of the Forge can't make his sword just a little bit sharper?!

Even if the sword was ap2, the hammer and shield would still be a better all round choice.

Str 8 compared to fleshbane functions the same in most cases, as there really aren't many T7-10 models out there.
What there are more of is models with an AV value, or weapons that ignore 2+ saves, both of which the th/ss is better against.

Really though this issue is redundant, as belial's problems do not stem from his wargear, but rather from the fact that he is a terminator captain - who are inherently redundant and overcosted for what they can do.

Nope. S8 is often better, as it can cause ID on many HQs. That's why Belial will always lose against tooled-up Marine HQs: they'll have a 2+ save he can't beat, have S8 to ID him, and often a better invuln.
All this for the same cost .
The reason I take Belial is to precison Deep Strike deathwing knights: in melee, he's waaaaay too lackluster.

I said that the hammer is better. I don't understand what you are disagreeing with.

Also, a th is ap2, so belial can damage 2+ save models.

Here's the deal: Belial is a joke. We all know this. My suggestion to make his sword AP2 was simply to make the sword worthwhile over simply ALWAYS swapping if for a th/ss. I know the th/ss is better. In fact, it's a no-brainer. See, that's the problem. It shouldn't be a no-brainer. It's poor design. An iconic captain of iconic chapter wielding an iconic sword and you swap for the same th/ss combo and regular dude could wield. Doesn't that strike you as lame?

From a design standpoint, if you didn't want to give the sword AP2 (coz having 3 AP2 attacks is OP, amirite?), then to actually make the th/ss swap a difficult one, you would have made his storm bolter better to take advantage of the precision shot rule he has. Make his storm bolter Salvo 2/4 and master-crafted. Do something, anything to make his keeping his current wargear worthwhile.

Some of you are so focused on why you should swap, that you're missing the point: if the designers had done a better job, you shouldn't want to.

Personally I run him with his sword. I have plenty other things in the DA dex to take on 2+ saves,

Honestly they need to lower the amount of AP 2 melee weapons in the game. This way it can make those units that have a 2+ save worth it. So belial is fine the way he is, DS without scatter is good enough. Makes it easier to plan what you want to do

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Honestly they need to lower the amount of AP 2 melee weapons in the game. This way it can make those units that have a 2+ save worth it. So belial is fine the way he is, DS without scatter is good enough. Makes it easier to plan what you want to do

Sure, I'm down with that. Let's get rid of a lot of the AP2 and AP1 shooting, too. What else should we fix about 40K?

 the_Armyman wrote:

DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Honestly they need to lower the amount of AP 2 melee weapons in the game. This way it can make those units that have a 2+ save worth it. So belial is fine the way he is, DS without scatter is good enough. Makes it easier to plan what you want to do

Sure, I'm down with that. Let's get rid of a lot of the AP2 and AP1 shooting, too. What else should we fix about 40K?

d10 instead of d6