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Do units that are spawned, summoned (and what not) later during the game use the onjective secured rules?

I'm thinking, among other things, about the termagants that are spawned by a tervigon.

A guy came with this at the local store last week-end but i could not find where (if at all) it is writen in the rules.

They weren't purchased as part of a Detachment that has ObjSec as a Command Benefit. There's no reason why they would get it.

All models/units have to be part of a Detachment in a Battle-forged army. If I make an army consisting of a single Tyranid CAD and I take a Tervigon, which Detachment do the Guants belong to?

Protip... you only have one option.

My take... yes, they are troops and they are required to belong to a Detachment. The most reasonable assumption (and the only one that works in a single Detachment army) is to include them in the Detachment belonged to by the Summoning/Spawning/etc unit.

If that's the case Kriswall, can you no longer summon once you run out of FOC slots?

The rule concerning all units being in Detachaments, is from the "Choosing your Army" section in "Preparing for Battle". It's about list creating.
There's nothing to suggest a summon unit goes into any Detachment, let alone what type.
If it goes into a detachment, what then allows you to ignore the majority of the restriction? FOC restrictions primarily, also potentially Faction requirements and compulsory selections?
You can't just cherry pick the advantage, and ignore the rest.

 grendel083 wrote:
They weren't purchased as part of a Detachment that has ObjSec as a Command Benefit. There's no reason why they would get it.

ok got it... but even without objective secured rule they would still be scoring unit right?

 grendel083 wrote:
If that's the case Kriswall, can you no longer summon once you run out of FOC slots?

The rule concerning all units being in Detachaments, is from the "Choosing your Army" section in "Preparing for Battle". It's about list creating.
There's nothing to suggest a summon unit goes into any Detachment, let alone what type.
If it goes into a detachment, what then allows you to ignore the majority of the restriction? FOC restrictions primarily, also potentially Faction requirements and compulsory selections?
You can't just cherry pick the advantage, and ignore the rest.

i buy you have a valid point on not being part of any detachment.

But you lose me at the whole FOC thing.
Is FOC even matter after "Choosing your Army" section in "Preparing for Battle"? as summon unit is in the middle of the battle? does anywhere said summon unit take up FOC?

 grendel083 wrote:
If that's the case Kriswall, can you no longer summon once you run out of FOC slots?

The rule concerning all units being in Detachaments, is from the "Choosing your Army" section in "Preparing for Battle". It's about list creating.
There's nothing to suggest a summon unit goes into any Detachment, let alone what type.
If it goes into a detachment, what then allows you to ignore the majority of the restriction? FOC restrictions primarily, also potentially Faction requirements and compulsory selections?
You can't just cherry pick the advantage, and ignore the rest.

I'm not cherry picking anything. The Force Org Chart is a limiter during list creation. It's obviously not a limiter during actual game play. If it was, taking 6 10 man Tactical Squads in a CAD and combat squading them would immediately violate the rules as it would create 12 Troops units in one CAD.

True, this is in the preparing for battle section, but it's still valid. "all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment." In the absence of an explicit statement telling me otherwise, I have to assume this requirement applies during both list creation and the game itself. If you believe otherwise, quote a rule waiving this requirement during actual gameplay. I can't find one.

I do agree that this creates rules conflicts. If a single CAD army of Space Marines summons Daemons... well, you've inserted Daemons into a CAD with a restriction preventing non-Space Marines. So... which rule do you want to break? The rule saying all models have to belong to a Detachment or the rule telling you you can't have non Space Marines in a Space Marine CAD?

My argument would say that the summoned Daemons have no Faction. They weren't selected from Codex: Chaos Daemons. I'll need to read up on this, but seems to be a possible grey area.

Nothing in the rules for spawning/summoning tell us they count as being part of the detachment/formation of the model(s) that spawned/created them.

in the case of termagants we are told:

A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules. Models in a spawned unit are armed with fleshborers and may not purchase options.

So we are told it is identical to a termagant unit chosen from the troops section of the army list and treated as such for all mission special rules.

so by the RAW they are troops. However we are not told they count as being from any of the detachments or not (assuming battle forged here).

I could see someone proposing that since they are identical an unit chosen from the army list, when making an army if you choose a termagant unit in a CAD they would have obj sec. I don't think there is any actual RAW support for this.

Currently for nids spawned termagants would gain almost no detachment special rules, I think theres ob sec from CAD and the reroll IB from leviathan detachment. It could get, chaotic when chaos daemons are given formations with special rules and you summon things from those formations and then try to claim they count as coming from those formations, but I don't think summoned units have the same wording as spawn termagants in regards to if it counts as troops/elites/hq whatever.

HIWIPI- I would let a nid player count the termagants as troops from the detachment/formation the terv was in when they were spawned.

RAW- if someone asked me to make a rules decison, lol. I would say there is no RAW showing they are part of the detachment/formation or anything to suggest they would be or need to be. So no.

I can't see them getting ObSec without an FAQ saying so. They were not part of that detachment (as in units taken in that detachment) they are the result of an in game process.

I would say no. They're extra troops not counted in the normal formation, so any "summoned" units (Termagaunts, Daemons) don't get the CAD bonus.

The rules aren't explicitly clear on this. Some people play yes they do have ObSec, and some play no they don't. My group plays it as yes because the rules state all units must be part of a detachment. In a pick up situation it's probably best to add it to the list of things to discuss with your opponent before playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it's stated that they are treated as arriving from reserves for all rules purposes which implies they are somehow around at the deployment stage. Admittedly it would be a lot better if they had just included one sentence saying yes they do get ObSec, or no they don't.

spawned gaunts are obsec troops as they are specifically stated as being treated the same as purchased gaunts.

Spawned deamons however are not, as they do not have this coverage written in on them.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
spawned gaunts are obsec troops as they are specifically stated as being treated the same as purchased gaunts.

Purchased gaunts don't necessarily have ObjSec. It's not a rule they come with.

It all depends on the Command Benefit of whatever Detachment or Formation they belong to. That's what gives them ObjSec.
If summond / spawned units aren't in a Detachment, they don't get a Detachments Command Benefit.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
spawned gaunts are obsec troops as they are specifically stated as being treated the same as purchased gaunts.

Spawned deamons however are not, as they do not have this coverage written in on them.

A purchased gaunt from a leviathan formation may not have ObSec, so your assertion is proven by this simple proof.

An exactly normal gaunt has rules that vary depending on the detachment. You have no permission to include this summoned / spawned model into your initial detachment, so t must go into its own detachment, with no special rules associated with it.

Did the tervigon that spawn them come from a CAD with objective secured?


If yes, then they have it.

If no, then they dont.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Did the tervigon that spawn them come from a CAD with objective secured?

Do you have any rules quote to support this?

Doesn't matter what Detachment the Tervigon is in. If the Gaunts aren't in the same Detachment, they get nothing!

come on! Eihnalazer assume CAD have Obj Sec special rules when he said

 Eihnlazer wrote:
spawned gaunts are obsec troops as they are specifically stated as being treated the same as purchased gaunts.

Spawned deamons however are not, as they do not have this coverage written in on them.

pointing out something that is so blunt obvious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Did the tervigon that spawn them come from a CAD with objective secured?

Do you have any rules quote to support this?

Doesn't matter what Detachment the Tervigon is in. If the Gaunts aren't in the same Detachment, they get nothing!

talking about taking things out of context. this is just being rude.

tyllon wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Did the tervigon that spawn them come from a CAD with objective secured?

Do you have any rules quote to support this?

Doesn't matter what Detachment the Tervigon is in. If the Gaunts aren't in the same Detachment, they get nothing!

talking about taking things out of context. this is just being rude.

Can you explain why you think this is rude? It was in no way written in such a manner, I can't see it myself. And why is it out of context? It's very relevent.

It's a simple question: is there rules support for his theory that a spawned unit gains the command benefit of the spawner?
I can't find any rule that says they join a Detachment. Hence why I asked.

Just to be clear, ObjSec is a Command Beneffit. The only way to get it is to be in a Detachment that lists it as a Command Benefit, or have a special rule that grants it.
So the question is still relevent. What rule places the spawned unit in a Detachment? And Which Detachment do they join?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Did the tervigon that spawn them come from a CAD with objective secured?


If yes, then they have it.

If no, then they dont.

@grendel He is asking a question. so why would he have any rule supporting a question? He also give you the conclusion to whatever your answer might be backing by whatever he said earlier.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
spawned gaunts are obsec troops as they are specifically stated as being treated the same as purchased gaunts.

The way you quoted him purposely cut out the Q&A format and put it into a statement or theory format. you made him sound like he is saying spawn have Obj Sec rule when in fact he did not. that why you are taking it out of context. The rude part comes in when you expect him to spell out every little detail when it is very blunt obvious. you are not coming to the debate in good faith that why you are being rude.

Except the statement is wrong. The spawned taunts are not from the CAD. They do not therefore have OBsec.

tyllon wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Did the tervigon that spawn them come from a CAD with objective secured?


If yes, then they have it.

If no, then they dont.

@grendel He is asking a question. so why would he have any rule supporting a question? He also give you the conclusion to whatever your answer might be backing by whatever he said earlier.

No, he provided no rules backing for his assertion that the spawned unit "inherits" the ObjSec status from a CAD. He simply stated it was so.
Grendel asked for rules support.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
spawned gaunts are obsec troops as they are specifically stated as being treated the same as purchased gaunts.

The way you quoted him purposely cut out the Q&A format and put it into a statement or theory format. you made him sound like he is saying spawn have Obj Sec rule when in fact he did not. that why you are taking it out of context. The rude part comes in when you expect him to spell out every little detail when it is very blunt obvious. you are not coming to the debate in good faith that why you are being rude.

You can purchase gants as part of many detachments, only a CAD gets them ObjSec. Which means his assertion is incorrect. He did, in fact, say that they have the ObjSec rule if the Tervigon was from a CAD.

It's not blunt obvious, it's not rude to ask for clarification, grendel came to the debate in good faith. Eihnlazer made an (incorrect) assertion without rules support.

tyllon wrote:
@grendel He is asking a question. so why would he have any rule supporting a question? He also give you the conclusion to whatever your answer might be backing by whatever he said earlier.

it was a question, followed by 2 answers.
But those answers are based on the assumption that the spawned unit joins the spawners detachment. Or somehow inherits the command benefit.
It is that assumption that I was asking rules support for.

The way you quoted him purposely cut out the Q&A format and put it into a statement or theory format. you made him sound like he is saying spawn have Obj Sec rule when in fact he did not. that why you are taking it out of context. The rude part comes in when you expect him to spell out every little detail when it is very blunt obvious. you are not coming to the debate in good faith that why you are being rude.

Look back at what was actually written please.
It was a question followed by two answers. Those answers were based on an assumption. I questioned that assumption, and asked what rule supports it.

Simply put, a unit is not ObjSec unless it is in a detachment that grants it.
Those answers that Eihnlazer gave clearly show he believes they do join the Spawners detachment (or at least inherit their command benefit). I'd like to know what rule supports this?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except the statement is wrong. The spawned taunts are not from the CAD. They do not therefore have OBsec.

The rule in the Tyranid codex states:
A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules. Models in a spawned unit are armed with fleshborers and may not purchase options.

Problem here is that the rules were written in the 6th edition context when we didn't have the Detachment structure to the army (at least, not in the same manner as we do now). In 6th edition, this was pretty clear, but now it leaves us with this question: If my army list has a CAD and an Endless Swarm Formation Detachment, what rules does a Termagaunt unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, have? Some have Objective Secured while others don't.

Counter point to that, the bonuses have nothing to do with the Troops section in the army list. The bonuses are purely from the Detachment / Formation. Both come from the same entry in the codex.

It's by placing a unit into a Detachment that allows them to claim a Command Benefit. And that isn't an option listed in the Troops section.

 grendel083 wrote:
Counter point to that, the bonuses have nothing to do with the Troops section in the army list. The bonuses are purely from the Detachment / Formation. Both come from the same entry in the codex.

It's by placing a unit into a Detachment that allows them to claim a Command Benefit. And that isn't an option listed in the Troops section.

I think I agree with you. But to go back to Daemons;
BRB:
Battle-forged Armies
A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments.
[...]
There is no limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include and you can use any mixture of Detachments you have available, within the restrictions of the rules that follow. However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.
If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

Does this mean that summoning Daemons either:
a) ...are part of a Detachment in your army
b) ...aren't part of a Detachment, thus making your army Unbound

Or does this part of the BRB only talk about building your army and those rules become irrelevant once the game starts?

 Hansisaf wrote:
Or does this part of the BRB only talk about building your army and those rules become irrelevant once the game starts?

This is the answer

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Hansisaf wrote:
Or does this part of the BRB only talk about building your army and those rules become irrelevant once the game starts?

This is the answer

It totally is. The whole summoned/obsec thing is complete wishful thinking. If my army is made up purely of a formation (Baal strike force or whatever), and I summon some daemons, do they become part of that detachment and gain its command benefits? No, obviously they don't. Being selected as part of a detachment is only relevant when choosing your army (ie before the game starts).

That's what I thought.

as above, as per the command benefits section the command benefits are given to the units in the detachment prior to deployment.

There is no ability to give/gain command benefits to units after that point- so summoned units would never be able to be assigned command benefits for being in a detachment, even if they were counted as being in the same detachment.