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Still hoping that they just had a typo and correct the rules that have leaked so far, but I doubt it... cause GW...

So for everybody who hasnt noticed it , here a short summary of the changes:

Wraith are beasts now. So 12", no difficult Terrain tests and FLEET. So they will catch you faster than before. ---> buff

They can get I5 (for 3 Points if i got it right) instead of reducing the Ini of every opponent in base contact to 1, which means, that they will hit before most other units except some HQs, eldar and nids. ---> buff

They are now T5, so no Insta-Killing anymore. Combined with their 3++ this means we got the following gain in durability:

S3 - 100% durability gain - average 36 hits for a kill
S4 - 50 % durability gain - average 18 hits for a kill
S5 - 33 % durability gain - average 12 hits for a kill
S6 - 25 % durability gain - average 9 hits for a kill
S7 - 0% durability gain - average 7.2 hits for a kill
S8 - 100% durability gain - Cause no IK - average 7.2 hits for a kill
S9 - 100% durability gain - Cause no IK - average 7.2 hits for a kill
S10 - 0% durability gain - average 3.6 hits for a kill

---> BIG BUFF

They are also S6, with rending and 3 attacks.

And all for just 40 Points (43 with I5) per wraith.

This means, that Guardsmen need 72 Lasgun shots to kill 1 wraith.

Marines with BF4 and Bolters need 27 shots. Even with plasma a Marine needs 10,8 shots. Remember that you loose a Plasma every 18 shots due to gets hot xD.

On the other hand a turn 2 charge should be normal. Turn 1: move 12", run (with fleet) -Turn2 move 12"- charge (with fleet)

Once in CC they can wreck nearly eveything, thanks to I5, S6, rending and a high amount of attacks.


3 full Units of 6 wraith cost about 720 to 774 points!!!

So how are we supposed to fight wraith spam? Tell me your ideas. Codex doesnt matter.


At least, my DE mostly dont care because of poison, high Ini and speed, but for my marines its getting even harder... Remember, wraith cost as much as Storm-Termies... without shields... and are better in any way...

Space Marines are in trouble against Wraithwing.

Even a full squad of grav-centurions is only killing 3 wraiths a turn on average. Then they're in assault with you and its a downhill.

Have your stats accounted for the Decurion formation, which gives them a 4+ Re-animation Protocols?

As a Nid player...I dunno how I'm going to deal with Wraithwing. Maybe FMC spam so they can't get to me. But then with 12 inch movement, they are going to rek in Maelstrom.

As a DE player...mm poison could work? But a Venom musters 1.32 wounds, less from Decurion. So from 10 Venoms you could statistically kill a unit of Wraiths. But you've still got two more units to deal with - and the rest of the army.

Natalya wrote:
Space Marines are in trouble against Wraithwing.

Even a full squad of grav-centurions is only killing 3 wraiths a turn on average. Then they're in assault with you and its a downhill.

Its worse

to hit 4/6
to wound 4/6
unsaved 2/6

= 0,148 HP per shot

5 shots = 0,74 HP per centurion and turn
6 centurions = 4,44 HP turn

with 2 HP per wraith ist 2,22 wraith per turn from a unit worth 500 points xD

Have your stats accounted for the Decurion formation, which gives them a 4+ Re-animation Protocols?

no, even without the formation wraith are unbelieveable broken now...

I thought they have a 4++ now with no repair ? Just got T5

Nope, they've got a 3++. Phase-shifter was downgraded to a 4++, but Wraiths don't have the PS anymore. Wraithflight gives them a 3+ invuln.

I cannot think of any recent examples of GW taking a REALLY good unit and then making them incredibly broken like this.

I don't see them as broken. They are just T5 now. Unless they can repair now, but don't think they can.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I don't see them as broken. They are just T5 now. Unless they can repair now, but don't think they can.

They gained T5 and fleet. Might not make them ridiculously broken but makes them up there.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I don't see them as broken. They are just T5 now. Unless they can repair now, but don't think they can.

Really

buffing something that people have been spamming so hard because its so consistently decent? it should be served with eggs and a coffee

There is a formation that lets them RP

hoping the necron players roll super bad, or using invisible things to tar pit them forever is pretty much going to be the only way till D weapons and superheavys become more accepted.

Pure volume seems to be the solution to Wraiths, that or find a way to tie them up.

On the plus side, no Wraiths + Destroyer Lord now.

They are T5 but if Necrons take a spyder and a unit of scarabs then while they are in 12 inches they can get 4+ FNP necron RP

Its only for the first turn or two, but that is what counts for the Wraiths.

Whats their max squad size? 9?

I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.

T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.

I still think a Juggernaught Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury will munch them. Followed by spawn ofc.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.

T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.

You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.

can you as an ork player bring the heat?

Im not saying its broken

but its definitely hitting over powered status.

Weight of numbers will still bring them down. BA strike simultaneously with them on the charge and can keep up with them for mobility. Baal predators will still rip into them pretty well. Sanguinary guard hit them on 3s and wound on 4s or 3s. Frag pods are still good against them as well.

Other marine armies may struggle a bit more but still have options. Rad grenade+melta from dark angels, thunderwolves from space puppies, etc. Vanilla marines will just have to adjust their tactics. Maybe we'll see fewer centurions and more vindicators.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Weight of numbers will still bring them down. BA strike simultaneously with them on the charge and can keep up with them for mobility. Baal predators will still rip into them pretty well. Sanguinary guard hit them on 3s and wound on 4s or 3s. Frag pods are still good against them as well.

Other marine armies may struggle a bit more but still have options. Rad grenade+melta from dark angels, thunderwolves from space puppies, etc. Vanilla marines will just have to adjust their tactics. Maybe we'll see fewer centurions and more vindicators.

Space puppy polo team would do ok i think fo sure.

Id figure cents would be fine its still 15 3+s and 3 chest missles per turn. just shoot and scoot. and chuck some speed bumps on the way

 Desubot wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.

T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.

You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.

can you as an ork player bring the heat?

Im not saying its broken

but its definitely hitting over powered status.

It will take 80 ish attacks to kill 30 ork boyz (1unit) if no wraith die I. With only 3 attacks each that's almost 5 rounds of combat. 30 boyz are cheaper than 6 wraiths. And that's if the orks don't kill any and don't have fnp them selves.

So yes I think orks can bring the heat

Just realised as well for the 3++ 4+++ (that only lasts for 1-2 turns max if you want to move the wraits)

it costs.....

wait for it....

418 points

It damn well should be survivable for 6 wraiths. yes I get a spider and some scarabs to sit on an objective...whoopee.

Just saying its not totally out of whack, I'm thinking T5 wraiths by themselves will be the way to go.

I think the decurion reanimation protocol buff only buffs things WITH the reanimation protocol rule. All the canoptic stuff does not (unless i missed that romour and now they do).

 McGibs wrote:
I think the decurion reanimation protocol buff only buffs things WITH the reanimation protocol rule. All the canoptic stuff does not (unless i missed that romour and now they do).

Canoptek Formation lets the Spyders buff all formation members within 12 inches of them with one of the following rules, chosen at the start of each turn:

Shred,
Fleet,
Reanimation Protocols.

Also if you're playing a Decurion detachment all members get +1 to reanimation.

Can someone post the "leak" or whatever.

Seems appropriate in a thread talking about it.

My real question is if it's worth the Decurion and the Canoptek formation to buff the wraiths like that. I mean, everyone gets 4+ RP (and the stuff from the reclamation legion will re-roll RP results of 1, which is situafional at best but not bad obviously).

You introduce more objective scoring units for sure, and scarabs are a nice fast tarpit that can at least glance a vehicle to death in a turn or two. The Spyder is a slow MC (but a tough MC that has a 3+ w/effective 4+ FNP that only changes to a 5+ in the face of instant death. Not too shabby for a 50 point unit.

Losing obsec is unfortunate and it might be worth investigating how to get some in the list (probably a Necron CAD/allies) but it's just so many troops. Maybe Necron allies with a cryptek or a barge lord to get at least 1 obsec unit (either in a GA or NS) would help fix that, but then you just have a unit with a huge late-game target on its back.....

Sorry for tangent. Back to the OP's question, volume of fire is still the answer. Preferably something that doesn't wound on 5/6, but wraiths are still vulnerable to volume of fire. Less so now, but there are ways around it. If they have RP, kill the Spyder/position your units so that the wraiths either lose effective range or the RP to maximize their threat range. If they don't have RP, you don't have too much to worry about. A few dead wraiths is a big hit to their combat effectiveness. They will often be hitting on 4 and with no d lord to buff their 1's, they're not as monstrous as they used to be (plus no bonus for that pistol nonsense)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a pretty good compilation of most of the leaks thus far:


http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/01/24/rumor-it-necron-leaked-rules-rumors-compendium/

What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.

 felixcat wrote:
What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.

10, and not particularly well once you factor in 3++.

Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.

 felixcat wrote:
What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.

They're leadership 10.

 Byte wrote:
Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.

Seems like you haven't been following the rumors thread, and thus haven't seen the pictures taken directly from the new codex showing unit profiles.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 felixcat wrote:
What is their LD - how does psychic shriek against them.

They're leadership 10.

 Byte wrote:
Seems like a cryptic thread discussing rules that aren't readily available yet.

Seems like you haven't been following the rumors thread, and thus haven't seen the pictures taken directly from the new codex showing unit profiles.

Seems you are correct. I will go through the 100 pages find the post and post it here as to give this thread more credibility before the official release.

Byte if you just search the interwebs, the leaks are all over the place. I'll be at my FLGS tomorrow to sneak a peak myself. I don't know where the response to your previous comment went (deleted I suppose) but it''s not crazy for someone to err on the side of caution with copyrighted material. Technically in the context of a review, you can quote snippets, but we do run a bit of a fine line here since everyone wants to know and talk about everything.

Also, the OP did post most of the relevant changes for wraiths in his opening remarks. They are now T5 instead of T4, potentially have access to reanimation protocols (which now effectively work like FNP, but can only ever be a 4+ at max and one higher (so a 5+ in the case of a 4+) in the event of instant death). They have higher initiative and are not denied by charging through terrain so combat is more difficult. Overall, they're just really tough to deal with now. Not quite screamerstar tough, but I mean what is?