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the other issue with the WS versus wraith talk is that if you are maxing our your wraith movement each turn you are not going to have the spyder buff past turn 2 most likely.

The WS guns/serpent shield are not short ranged, so it can fire at things past the wraiths, and still have an effect- it is not forced to shoot the wraiths at all.

as for WK

WK is as mobile as wraiths, so there is no guarantee wraiths get the charge off.

Lets say wraiths do, 6 wraiths charge 24 attacks, 12 hits. 2 rends, 1 other wound which will probably be saved. If knight is fortuned, good chance, then wraiths will do 1 wound total on average.
Wk strikes back, will on average kill 1 Spyder a turn if the wraith does not have RP, if the spyder does will kill on average .66 wraiths a turn.
Next round spyders lose their charge bonus, of WK is not fortuned spyders now have 5 models, striking 15 times we will say scoring 8 hits, 1 rend and 1 wound, if fortuned the Wk will maybe take 1 wound. If not it will still maybe only take 1 wound due to 5++ versus rend and 3+ versus non rends. It will gib another wraith.

The end result is combat being locked for 5 assault phases (2-3 game turns) and the wraiths losing with the wraithknight on average having 2-3 wounds remaining.

The main issue is the 6 wounds at toughness 8 and the saves. rending is not very good to be honest, and its much better on units other than wraiths. for close to 260pts you get 6 wraiths with rending. Thats 24 attacks on the charge, but only 18 if they get charged or in ongoing assault. That doesn't sound so bad but when you factor in most of their targets are ws4+ so they only hit half the time you are looking at 12 hits/9 hits. You rend on a 6, so on average your looking at 1-2 rends, the rest of the attacks although str6 give armor saves. At str6 versus WK T 8 only 1/6th of your remaining attacks are going to wound, and then the Wk gets armor saves- possibly with rerolls.

Rending is awesome on things like daemonettes because they are cheap(er). at 260 pts you can get 28 daemonettes and have points to spare. They have 2 attacks each, 3 on the charge so when 28 daemonettes charge they get 84 attacks, 42 hits, which is about 7 rends. 7 rends is a lot better than 1 or 2. The only strength of rending on wraiths is it gives them the ability to not be tarpitted by AV13+ walkers and to have a decent chance to affect AV 12+ vehicles.

anyone thinking wraiths are going to walk all over a Wk and completely destroy it is confused.

Well it usually won't have the 5++ but you are still right, at best a unit of wraiths is locked for the remainder of the game. Meanwhile for as long as they can the WK along with the eldar army ignore the wraiths and open up the necron backfield. Also wraiths either rend or can't wound. So it's about a wound every turn after they charge IF they don't lose any.

Actually that's why I think the canoptek harvest is terrible. Your inflating already durable and pricey units to make them more durable, yet they still have the issue of crap damage output, it makes the decision to ignore them even more obvious and makes that additional tax even more wasted points.

Anyone feeling differently should just play the matchup against a good eldar player and they will see that the eldar player is basically dictating where, when and on what terms to fight the entire game.


Edit: I also have been humoring the little fact that it is always assumed the deployment is dawn of war, in hammer and anvil or vanguard, 2/3rds chance, it is crazy to imagine the wraiths impacting the game much.

If we are doing the Spider formation, then its entirely possible to be sending in the scarabs first while moving up the wraiths a bit slower.

 Desubot wrote:
If we are doing the Spider formation, then its entirely possible to be sending in the scarabs first while moving up the wraiths a bit slower.

But eldar shooting ID's scarabs so easily, heck anyone can ID them easily. Thunderfires, flyrants etc etc. I agree with you though, you should toss them up as well as an additional deal with me type target if you take CH, but if your leading the advance with them your not making more then 1 base. 4 scarabs is one volley for first blood.

I just can't see running the CH formation more then once. If I am running CAD wraiths I'd never bother, all it does is add 2 softer elements for FB and KP's.

 Desubot wrote:

 TranSpyre wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

Thats adorable. but can he survive that many hits and make that many 4+ saves?

All I want him to do is nuke the spider. He can easily do that with 4 (4+) shots then 7 (2+) re-rolling wound attacks on the charge. Anything he does after that is icing on the cake.

I agree that the canoptek harvest formation is a lot more lack luster than people make it out to be.

I think a lot of people got excited about the wraiths and getting the spyder buff for the 4+ RP and how amazing!!!one!!1eleven! they would become.

But the reality is not that amazing.

You will not get the buff until you go, so if you go second they do not start with it during enemy shooting. You will probably be out of range of the buff if you play the wraiths aggressively by turn 3, if the lone spyder (it is just 1 spyder..) is still alive.

I think its actually a pretty good charge deterrent unit, and if played conservatively would be scary. I think in many situations the shred buff the spyder can give, which many people seem to not notice, is much better than RP. especially versus high toughness units.

6 wraiths assaulting a WK with shred/rend is a different story for example, 24 attacks 12 hits 2 rends maybe 1 other wound you reroll the other dice and get another rend and wound. So total is 3 rends and 2 wounds, now if the WK does not have a 5++ you just halfed its life, if it rolls bad on the saves you maybe crippled it in one assault. This is still unlikely to pull off because you probably will not get the assault on the WK until turn 3-4 unless the Wk wanted to assault you and failed, and then you will probably not have access to shred because you outmoved the spyder, or it is dead. It's not like eldar have a hard time moving to kill something.

regardless, wraiths were good before, and the improvements they have gotten which most people are talking about are not offensive, so thinking wraiths that could not kill a WK before are now going to stomp it into the ground is silly, because offensively nothing has changed unless you are talking about shred, and or the loss of a D.Lord backing them up. The above also means your wraiths are not doing much the first 2-3 turns of the game other than playing cat and mouse.

 TranSpyre wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 TranSpyre wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

Thats adorable. but can he survive that many hits and make that many 4+ saves?

All I want him to do is nuke the spider. He can easily do that with 4 (4+) shots then 7 (2+) re-rolling wound attacks on the charge. Anything he does after that is icing on the cake.

You realize it takes over 100 hits alone to down a unit right? Edit: (at str 4 anyway probably less if fleshbane or higher str but still)

blaktoof wrote:


I think its actually a pretty good charge deterrent unit, and if played conservatively would be scary. I think in many situations the shred buff the spyder can give, which many people seem to not notice, is much better than RP. especially versus high toughness units.

Yeah. A charge deterrent unit is what it is. It's not some kind of killer assault unit.

A wraith costs about the same as 3 assault marines, right? We'll assume it has whip coils since people seem crazy about that, so no shooting attack.

On the charge, a Wraith vs. MEQ puts out 0.778 wounds.

On the other hand, three assault marines charging MEQ on the charge put out

shooting pistols = 0.33 wounds
hammer of wrath = 0.5 wounds
slap-fighin' in close combat = 0.75 wounds
total 1.58

Hey look at that 3 assault marines are twice as effective as a wraith on the charge against MEQ. Overpowered asssault marins must be nerfed, now!

Here's what I dont get.

18 attacks. 9 hits. S6? So wounds w/o saves on 6. 1.5 of them, average. No saves.
WK 4 attacks. 2 hit. 10/6 wounds, or 1+2/3 wounds. 2/3 saves, so 10/9ths unsaved wounds (IDing).

Wraiths get 15 attacks, 15/2 hits, 5/4 wounds, for 11/4ths wounds. Nearly half there.

I get that it's slow, but it would tie up the WK at worst. And looks like Wraiths would come out ahead. Even without Harvest.

And if you're throwing 5++/Fortune in, that is a lot more points. Fortune is WC2. And only Farseers can cast it. And does nothing without that 5++.

But I'm not saying Wraiths are good counters to WKs. I'm saying WKs arent good counters for Wraiths. Those Wraiths should be able to charge something jucy in short order. The WK shouldn't want to get into CC with the wraiths, so can't protect units by threatening.

Never fielded a WK myself. They are dumb.

Alcibiades wrote:

blaktoof wrote:


I think its actually a pretty good charge deterrent unit, and if played conservatively would be scary. I think in many situations the shred buff the spyder can give, which many people seem to not notice, is much better than RP. especially versus high toughness units.

Yeah. A charge deterrent unit is what it is. It's not some kind of killer assault unit.

A wraith costs about the same as 3 assault marines, right? We'll assume it has whip coils since people seem crazy about that, so no shooting attack.

On the charge, a Wraith vs. MEQ puts out 0.778 wounds.

On the other hand, three assault marines charging MEQ on the charge put out

shooting pistols = 0.33 wounds
hammer of wrath = 0.5 wounds
slap-fighin' in close combat = 0.75 wounds
total 1.58

Hey look at that 3 assault marines are twice as effective as a wraith on the charge against MEQ. Overpowered asssault marins must be nerfed, now!

that math is off



wraiths are better in CC by far the assault marines.. they are better in many other ways as well.

ancraig wrote:
As a deathwing and orks player, I'm not overly worried about it.

s8 fists against them, even with a 3++, i'm still going to take some to all down in one round of combat. they've got rending, which is annoying, but not reliable. In addition, i've got my anti everything unit: THE DEFFWANG KNIGHTS. People always laugh at me when I take them, but they crap themselves when i get in combat with anything with them and smite. ID'ing these fools? check. Taking down any monstrous creature easily? check.

and orks...power klaws. If i can get my warboss in there, so much the better, with my s 10 PK attacks. t5 and a 3++ are cute, but i've got 30 boys with a power klaw'ed nob/warboss who will throw so many wounds on you that it doesn't even matter.

I'm surprised they got buffed, but honestly, i'm not worried.

They will swing before your DW with whip coils and force significant amount of saves with a few potential rending attacks. Your fists will land on 3++ invul (potentially backed up by RP) and won't be doubling out any of these 2 wound models. Therefore, your 5 man unit of Tactical Termies will most likely fold in a round or two.

 easysauce wrote:



that math is off



wraiths are better in CC by far the assault marines.. they are better in many other ways as well.

I just double-checked and the math is indeed correct. 3 assault marines do in fact do considerably more damage on the charge vs. MEQ than do 1 Wraith. That's because they have a shooting attack + hammer of wrath + 9 attacks vs. the wraith's nothing, nothing, and 4 attacks.

Wraiths simply do not have high damage output against anything with an armour save.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is simply not a unit that is going to do a lot of damage.

It will take a lot of damage, but that is a different story.

Bharring wrote:
Here's what I dont get.

18 attacks. 9 hits. S6? So wounds w/o saves on 6. 1.5 of them, average. No saves.
WK 4 attacks. 2 hit. 10/6 wounds, or 1+2/3 wounds. 2/3 saves, so 10/9ths unsaved wounds (IDing).

Wraiths get 15 attacks, 15/2 hits, 5/4 wounds, for 11/4ths wounds. Nearly half there.

I get that it's slow, but it would tie up the WK at worst. And looks like Wraiths would come out ahead. Even without Harvest.

And if you're throwing 5++/Fortune in, that is a lot more points. Fortune is WC2. And only Farseers can cast it. And does nothing without that 5++.

But I'm not saying Wraiths are good counters to WKs. I'm saying WKs arent good counters for Wraiths. Those Wraiths should be able to charge something jucy in short order. The WK shouldn't want to get into CC with the wraiths, so can't protect units by threatening.

Never fielded a WK myself. They are dumb.

You are contradicting yourself now. Your OK with fielding 18 wraiths which you claim are better then the 3 wraith knights, yet wraith knights are dumb (OP implied).

Further you just ran the numbers with the wraiths charging and they won't just kill the WK. Each round of CC the wraiths lose a wraith, or thats 3 attacks. So eventually you will get that WK on it's last two wounds and you will struggle to finish it, and every round you don't get a lucky rend he makes that battle 1/6 harder buy killing yet another. The WK fights at 100% until he dies, A MASSIVE edge you fail to recognize.

You also keep factoring in the charge for the wraiths, you yourself said your gunning for the WS, so now your going to assault the WK? They move the same speed. More likely you spend two turns closing in and then a smart opponent charges you, preferably 3 WK to one unit of wraiths.

Bharring wrote:
The WK shouldn't want to get into CC with the wraiths, so can't protect units by threatening

Why wouldn't it want to? It costs less points and gets 2 rounds to fire a very effective ranged weapon at other targets. So look at it this way, both units waste the majority of the game slap fighting but only one gets to impact the game elsewhere, that's the WK. Again, it shoots the QS off your vehicles before getting bogged down and now the WS can hurt anything in your army efficiently.

 Deuce11 wrote:

They will swing before your DW with whip coils and force significant amount of saves with a few potential rending attacks.

"Significant amount of saves" here is less than 1.5 per Wraith, of which 0.25 will be a rend, which will get through the Inv save 66% of the time. It should take 5 wraiths quite some time to kill 5 terminators,

Alcibiades wrote:

 easysauce wrote:



that math is off



wraiths are better in CC by far the assault marines.. they are better in many other ways as well.

I just double-checked and the math is indeed correct. 3 assault marines do in fact do considerably more damage on the charge vs. MEQ than do 1 Wraith. That's because they have a shooting attack + hammer of wrath + 9 attacks vs. the wraith's nothing, nothing, and 4 attacks.

Wraiths simply do not have high damage output against anything with an armour save.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is simply not a unit that is going to do a lot of damage.

It will take a lot of damage, but that is a different story.

^This

Wraiths are an amazing unit for what they are, a durable tarpit. They don't have volume to kill hordes and lack AP to kill elite units efficiently. It's the fact that they cost 258 with WC for 6. That is not a cheap unit for 6 models. I can get 3 combat squads and a rhino for less all with obsec. You would be lucky to kill those 4 units with one unit of wraiths in a game. Any of it survives on an objective and I win.

Take them stock from a CAD, I'd even save on the WC personally and use a unit or two to defend (ie tie up) anything threatening your other units.

The WK being dumb doesn't mean it eats anything. Few people doubt a Serpent is OP, but a Serpent doesn't counter a Land Raider. On that end, Wraiths may not be a problem. However, I don't see Serpents and WKs being a hardcounter to them.

That was 18 attacks, not 18 wraiths. Those numbers were with neither side getting the assault.

My point is the WK doesn't want to be in melee with Wraiths. Per point, especially if they get the charge (not so likely), the WK is in danger. Perhaps I underestimated the speed at which the wraiths damage falls off over the rounds. So, perhaps a WK would win if it charged Wraiths. It would certainly be a riskey proposition. And would take the WK out of play for a while.

Serpents are a jucy target for Wraiths, certainly. But the only thing in the Eldar dex that I would think wouldn't be would be either the WK, or maybe a fearless unit of guardians? So Wraiths should be pushing the player, and eating what it sacrifices. Targets of opportunity.

For the 3wk issue, if they charge you, you're controlling the engagement. You lose half that unit that turn, but between the 1.5 wounds it did, the 4 wounds the other two wraith units will do on its charge, and the .75 wounds the remaining wraith do, one WK bites it, and we're back to effectively the same numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It costs 15 points less. At 240. Not substantially cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that 15 points let's it strike first in combat


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we're talking past each other. I'm saying WK doesn't roflstomp wraiths, you're saying Wraiths won't win against WK. Those positions are not necessarily that far apart.

Wraiths are a premier Elite squad Assault unit. They will reach an important target and either tie it up for several turns or kill it by the end of the game.

Does that make them OP? In the eyes of some, sure. But it's not necessarily the most broken thing in the game. In fact, just by the nature of Assault in this edition, I don't think any Assault unit can be considered "game breaking". At most, a super powerful assault unit is going to reach a high value target sometime around turn 2 or 3, kill it around 3 or 4, and maybe tie up a second unit for the last turn or two. It's not like a Knight, which can shoot a squad off the board and then end a combat in one round with Destroyer Weapon + Stomps.

Instead, it's basically a slightly expensive 1v1 squad. Against MSU, it'll get a squad or two, which doesn't matter. Against other elite armies, it might do better. But by no means does that make it "OP".

I don't know if someone has mentioned this as a solution, but I think the Knight Castigator is a good point investment that won't die instantly to the squad, and fairs decently in combat against it. At 380 points, the shooting will kill 1 wraith (8 shots TL, str 7), leaving 5 left in the squad. On assault, wraiths swing first, with avg 1 rend getting through (15 atks, hitting on 4s, rending on 6s). Using the castigator auto-hits at str 10, this will kill another 2 wraiths (5 auto hits, wounds on 2s, each failed saved doubles a wraith out). Finally, he gets stomps, which will on average kill another, and has the potential to remove them from play.

Bharring wrote:
The WK being dumb doesn't mean it eats anything. Few people doubt a Serpent is OP, but a Serpent doesn't counter a Land Raider. On that end, Wraiths may not be a problem. However, I don't see Serpents and WKs being a hardcounter to them.

That was 18 attacks, not 18 wraiths. Those numbers were with neither side getting the assault.

My point is the WK doesn't want to be in melee with Wraiths. Per point, especially if they get the charge (not so likely), the WK is in danger. Perhaps I underestimated the speed at which the wraiths damage falls off over the rounds. So, perhaps a WK would win if it charged Wraiths. It would certainly be a riskey proposition. And would take the WK out of play for a while.

Serpents are a jucy target for Wraiths, certainly. But the only thing in the Eldar dex that I would think wouldn't be would be either the WK, or maybe a fearless unit of guardians? So Wraiths should be pushing the player, and eating what it sacrifices. Targets of opportunity.

For the 3wk issue, if they charge you, you're controlling the engagement. You lose half that unit that turn, but between the 1.5 wounds it did, the 4 wounds the other two wraith units will do on its charge, and the .75 wounds the remaining wraith do, one WK bites it, and we're back to effectively the same numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It costs 15 points less. At 240. Not substantially cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And that 15 points let's it strike first in combat


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we're talking past each other. I'm saying WK doesn't roflstomp wraiths, you're saying Wraiths won't win against WK. Those positions are not necessarily that far apart.

I never said the WK rofl stomps them though. I said eldar have a unit that is equally durable yet WAY more flexible to counter them. A counter doesn't mean you need to pick another unit off the table in a turn, or even ever. A counter just implies that it removes the advantage the other unit creates. A 15 point difference is still a 15 point difference and it comes on a unit that is effective in each phase (barring psychic).

You still fail to acknowledge the difference the shooting of a WK makes. The wraiths lack any real ranged threat. Particle casters suck btw and only make them more expensive and forgo running. It's a 258 pint unit that doesn't die easily but only assaults, with none armor piercing attacks. If you are taking that many wraiths your eating up your FA slots and points. Where is your shooting coming from?

This is beyond wishful thinking, but I was wondering....

What if the 2W was a typo? They meant to up to T5, but down to 1W?

I mean, 1W would make them more in-line with equivalently priced TH/SS terminators. Terminators have better armor, stronger attacks, but slower, wraiths faster, better I, RP, and rending.

I mean, that seems a little more balanced, and would take wraiths from an OMGWTFBBQ unit to a solid one.

I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around multiwound models getting +1T and no cost increase. That's nuts.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The WK is also 240, not 200, so costs 6 Wraiths, not 5.

WK has 4 attacks base, +1 for charge. Even if Wraiths had 1 attack each, theyd still win if the WK Charges. But they get +6 attacks if they manage to get the charge.

I assumed with bubblewrap we were talking about after you had backed it against the far board edge.

Either way, it flat outs at best 36". You consolidate and move for 19", so its furthest point is 11" away. It could back off 12" and fire two weapons - putting its furthest point at best 23", and if its shooting more than the SL, its closest point is at most 14" away from you (9" in length). Move 12, then charge 2". Dead serpent. Bought one extra round of shooting. So you lost 20 points worth of wounds.

It could flat out a second time. Assuming its not cornered already. And it has a place to go. Might even get a round of shooting off, before you corner it. But you win.

So t1/2 you push forward, it falls back shooting (20pts/round). T3 it shoots (20 pts) and feeds you bubblewrap which you obligingly eat (90 pts). It then flat outs t4. Then, t5, it shoots once more (20pts), then dies (155+ pts, star engines). Or it flat outs t5, shoots if there is a t6 (20pts), and dies if there is a t7 (155+ pts).

So the Serpent kills two Wraiths all game for 155 points, gets a 90 point bubble wrap killed, and may/may not survive. So, if you have nothing else to charge along the way, the Eldar lost 245 points to keep your 120 points busy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(All this is a good thing. I think Blasix's point in the other thread is right. Perhaps this will just knock Serpent Spam and MC centerpiece armies down a peg. Something they need.)

At this point I am done with you. Your not even reading my posts or being realistic. I said it's 1WK vs 6 wraiths FROM THE START. I mean you didn't even know a WK has 6 wounds until I corrected you, so how can you even discuss it's strengths or weaknesses?

I hate discussions that devolve into, well if you do A I'll just do B.... The game is fluid, and I like to assume my opponents are not morons. It's not hard to dictate the terms of an encounter with a unit that moves 12" a turn and has no ranged attack. Period. All it can do is play chase, meaning your opponent will always chose when and where he wants to deal with the threat.

Old school wraith wing was decent because it packed 3-4 NS and 3 AB's (which btw are worse as well) and had MSS destroyer lords for things like the wk. Show me how on earth you can fit all those units into a Necron army now? Make an 1850 list and I'll make an 1850 eldar list and show you how outgunned you'll be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TranSpyre wrote:
Just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered using an Eversor as a giant can of Raid? He should take out the spider in a round of combat, then tie up the wraiths for a turn or two. Not bad for under 150 points.

Ha ha I love that idea actually, the thought of an Orcan man eversor is awesome!

Lots of posters forget that their opponent gets a turn as well.

I think I'm going to treat Wraiths like fast moving TH/SS terminators.

Wraiths are WAAAAAAAAY more scary to me than TH/SS terminators.

I mean, for me, I just toss boyz at terminators and tear them up (eventually).

But wraiths are tougher, faster, kill boyz just as easily, swing at the same time, and I think have more attacks. And they're harder for me to hurt. A non charging boy has 2x the chance to kill a terminator (before he swings) than to damage (and not kill) a wraith (assuming 4+ RP). That's a problem for me. Nobz and meganobz far little better, point-for-point. In fact, worse, based on my testing.

Played with 7crons 6 times now. 3 as 3 against with various armies. Record is 3-0 as, 1-2 against. My one win AGAINST them was the maelstrom game where you can claim "claim objective x" cards that the opponent has, and I had unreal luck, getting 9 points in 2 rounds for doing virtually nothing. It still ended close on points, and I was like 2 half units from being tabled.

The book is pretty good, but once you throw in the decurion, it goes over the top. We mainly used a rec legion + destroyer formation + canoptek formation. It always takes a completely silly amount of effort to kill the spyder from the harvest. Way more trouble killing a 50 point model than I've ever had before, what with wraith cover or 3+ armor and a 4+ feel no malfunction.

I did always just barely get the spyder down before the rest of the canopteks got to my dudes, but even then, I had to pour a ton into them. Meanwhile, the destroyers were just havin a grand ol' time. Did pretty much the same thing when I was the necron commander, and just wiped armies off the map with a canoptek forward rush followed by grunts and destroyers. The army is just too damn resilient. I don't ever see them getting tabled by anything other than a jilted dice god's angry wrath.

Whenever I started the game as necrons, I got that "in the bag" feel like I do with tau and eldar. When I'm against them, I get that feeling like the odds are way against me.

As for the canoptek harvest itself. It's a lot like the tau riptide. Either you accept that it's undercosted for how durable it is and try to ignore it, attempting to make up damage effectiveness elsewhere while it does what it wants, or you allocate WAY more than the thing cost to try and kill it. Either way the necrons come out ahead.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
This is beyond wishful thinking, but I was wondering....

What if the 2W was a typo? They meant to up to T5, but down to 1W?

I mean, 1W would make them more in-line with equivalently priced TH/SS terminators. Terminators have better armor, stronger attacks, but slower, wraiths faster, better I, RP, and rending.

I mean, that seems a little more balanced, and would take wraiths from an OMGWTFBBQ unit to a solid one.

I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around multiwound models getting +1T and no cost increase. That's nuts.

I agree that the cost is insane. I doubt I'd be able to see a model of the wraiths size being one wound though. Someone will probably prove me wrong, And they did go up in cost. 5 Pts.

Comparing Wraiths and IK's in a vacuum doesn't help.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I never said the WK rofl stomps them though. I said eldar have a unit that is equally durable yet WAY more flexible to counter them. A counter doesn't mean you need to pick another unit off the table in a turn, or even ever. A counter just implies that it removes the advantage the other unit creates. A 15 point difference is still a 15 point difference and it comes on a unit that is effective in each phase (barring psychic).

I disagree slightly because their strengths and weaknesses are slightly different. Wraithknights are durable but their bane is high strength AP3 or better weapons. So they do have a weakness that the wraiths do not. Wraiths durability is consistent until you reach S10 or D weapons. Otherwise they just don't care and will save the same at any other strength. Of course the higher toughness of the Wraithknight makes it immune to lower strength weapons and that is a strength that the Wraiths don't completely have.

Now I did the maths on the whole Wraiths vs Wraithknight thing and it depends on a couple of factors. First, who gets the charge and secondly if the Wraithknight has an invulnerable save or not. The Maths show that with it's base attacks it will kill 0.56 wraiths a turn and yes I am taking into account that the Wraithknight ID's the Wraiths in the event of failed invulnerable saves. So in the instance that Wraiths get the charge and that the Wraithknight does not have an invulnerable save then the Wraiths will eventually win after 5 rounds of combat. The Wraiths will lose 2.8 models during the process, which rounding up is half the unit.

If the Wraithknight does have a scattershield in the above example then the Wraiths will be slightly favoured yet again, but this time it will take 9 turns for the Wraiths to kill the Wraithknight with only 1 member surviving.

If the Wraithknight gets to charge along with having a scattershield then both units will tend to murder each other over the course of 10 rounds of combat.

I have to say that I think the Wraiths have the slight advantage here within close combat, but then again it's going to be a case of two units fighting each other over the course of the entire game. Also it's been pointed out by you that a Wraithknight will perform some shooting before getting into the nitty gritty of combat.


EDIT: By the way, I should point out that I did NOT apply the RP saves that the wraiths get from the Canoptek Harvest formation. This means that if they do have RP in effect then they are even tougher than shown in my calcs against the Wraithknight.

Is it just me or does GW just love using the words Wraith and Knights like it was going out of fashion?

 Red Corsair wrote:
I never said the WK rofl stomps them though. I said eldar have a unit that is equally durable yet WAY more flexible to counter them. A counter doesn't mean you need to pick another unit off the table in a turn, or even ever. A counter just implies that it removes the advantage the other unit creates. A 15 point difference is still a 15 point difference and it comes on a unit that is effective in each phase (barring psychic).

You still fail to acknowledge the difference the shooting of a WK makes. The wraiths lack any real ranged threat. Particle casters suck btw and only make them more expensive and forgo running. It's a 258 pint unit that doesn't die easily but only assaults, with none armor piercing attacks. If you are taking that many wraiths your eating up your FA slots and points. Where is your shooting coming from?

Most all of this depends on your playstyle and tactics rather than the hard numbers of the mathhammer. Not to mention upgrades. Beamer Wraiths could make the WK unhappy with a single lucky 6. Destroyers will no doubt shoot a couple shots in the WK right before the Wraiths charge, etc. The WK could easily double out wraiths with its shooting first as well. Or kill the Spider in the first two rounds. etc.

Vacuum comparisons really dont work well. Dice are fickle.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Wraiths are WAAAAAAAAY more scary to me than TH/SS terminators.

I mean, for me, I just toss boyz at terminators and tear them up (eventually).

But wraiths are tougher, faster, kill boyz just as easily, swing at the same time, and I think have more attacks. And they're harder for me to hurt. A non charging boy has 2x the chance to kill a terminator (before he swings) than to damage (and not kill) a wraith (assuming 4+ RP). That's a problem for me. Nobz and meganobz far little better, point-for-point. In fact, worse, based on my testing.

Well they have the same number of attacks as slugga boys, but they cost something like 7 times as much. So that's 21 attacks vs. 3. It will take him a long time to chew through your boys; he'll kill about 1 a turn.

He will tie them up a long time though.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Wraiths are WAAAAAAAAY more scary to me than TH/SS terminators.

I mean, for me, I just toss boyz at terminators and tear them up (eventually).

But wraiths are tougher, faster, kill boyz just as easily, swing at the same time, and I think have more attacks. And they're harder for me to hurt. A non charging boy has 2x the chance to kill a terminator (before he swings) than to damage (and not kill) a wraith (assuming 4+ RP). That's a problem for me. Nobz and meganobz far little better, point-for-point. In fact, worse, based on my testing.

Well they have the same number of attacks as slugga boys, but they cost something like 7 times as much. So that's 21 attacks vs. 3. It will take him a long time to chew through your boys; he'll kill about 1 a turn.

He will tie them up a long time though.

There's also several chances for the wraith to sweep the whole boy unit, especially given your hypothetical where they don't have a character with a boss pole.