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They just make your opponents auto win button relatively irrelevant.

I cant wait to see more lists and battle reps though.

Even with psychic powers the base wraiths alone can probably hold decently long against nearly any star.

Besides the trickly HNR or GOI types.

Some crunch has been run on the 258-pt unit killy-ness. Too killy for tarpitting by anything MEQ or better. Strong enough to clear rear AV10s with ease. Unlikely to crack a Land Raider (yes, they can pen it), and can't chew through a GEQ tarpit, but goes to town on just about anything else.

Their killyness is more than enough to make them scary. Not the killiest at their price tag, but nothing to dismiss either. You can't just throw a counter at them (even if your faction has one), because they move super fast. So they get to pick what they think is tasty.

Ideally, you're paying the price for their mobility and durability, not killyness. But you're getting a lot more than you paid for.

Bharring wrote:
Some crunch has been run on the 258-pt unit killy-ness. Too killy for tarpitting by anything MEQ or better. Strong enough to clear rear AV10s with ease. Unlikely to crack a Land Raider (yes, they can pen it), and can't chew through a GEQ tarpit, but goes to town on just about anything else.

Their killyness is more than enough to make them scary. Not the killiest at their price tag, but nothing to dismiss either. You can't just throw a counter at them (even if your faction has one), because they move super fast. So they get to pick what they think is tasty.

Ideally, you're paying the price for their mobility and durability, not killyness. But you're getting a lot more than you paid for.

Sounds like a squad of Smashfethers.

Anywayz, maybe GW has priced them with 8-th edition in mind? Where beasts are nerfed to 6' movement + fleet.

Wraiths are pretty good.

Welcome to 3(ish) years ago?

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Its pretty safe to assume most studied 40k players understand how good the new wraiths are. There will always be naysayers. They are not the end all auto-win either. No unit is.

And Byte drops the mic. Are the new wraiths good? Yes. Game breaking good? Nah.

We will have to wait and see I think. The feeling I have is their very high durability and decent assault output makes them ideal for hunting out tough units to tarpit them but also for hunting out objectives to sit on. In concerns to objective secured this seems to be given mostly to troops and I don't really see things like tactical squads being able to fend off objectives from wraiths to begin with. For other units the wraiths can at least contest those objectives and survive.

However, then again apparently it's been said that the whole entire Necron army is highly durable in a similar fashion. Afterall, Lychguard also get the option to have 3++ as well although they have to sacrifice their AP2 weapons for AP3 instead.

Fight the wraiths with MSU. Wraiths are generally a lot of points that can take a while to mull through units. So give them something cheap and longlasting to chew on. Effectively kills them.

col_impact wrote:
Fight the wraiths with MSU. Wraiths are generally a lot of points that can take a while to mull through units. So give them something cheap and longlasting to chew on. Effectively kills them.

Just anything with fearless works very well.

3+ or better armor is even better too since rending wont happen that often.

But not everyone has that :/

Any chance someone can math hammer the comparison between Wraiths and Lychguard for survivability and damage?

I have given it a shot.. and I think I have it figured out that wraith's are 20 odd % more survivable but im not sure on the damage output

Lychguard with sword and board is what im trying to figure out.

col_impact wrote:
Fight the wraiths with MSU. Wraiths are generally a lot of points that can take a while to mull through units. So give them something cheap and longlasting to chew on. Effectively kills them.

They don't cost that much though. It's 270 points for a unit of 6 with whip coils. Effectively they are 45 points per model and 22.5 points per wound. They actually don't cost anymore than say a unit of 10 Death Company or 6-7 Sanguinary Guard. A lot of Blood Angel lists are centring along the lines of 2 squads of Death Company with a unit of Sanguinary guard, so I can see a lot of Necron players taking 2 units of wraiths with perhaps a unit of Lychguard or Praetorians thrown in among the mix for combat goodness. Taking 3 units of 6 is 810 points. This still leaves the Necron player with 1190 points to play with in a 2000 point list. More than enough to sort his dedicated shooting units and any other bases he wants to cover.

It depends entirely on context. For survivability, the difference is 2W wraiths vs. RP on Shieldguard. So against anything S10 or with ID, Shieldguard inch ahead. Wraiths pull ahead if they're getting RP. Otherwise, they're exactly the same in the long term.
As any MMO healer will tell you, Health [2W] is preferable over Avoidance [RP], because there's less opportunity for bad luck to wipe you out.
However, you're paying +10pts on the Wraiths, mainly for mobility. So Shieldguard come out about 33% tougher per-point, but risk being utterly ignorable.

Damage output really depends on the target. Vs. unarmoured targets, Wraiths start ahead with slightly more attacks (per model and per point), as well as +1 strength. The closer you get to a 3+/no inv, the better Shieldguard get. Once you hit 2+, Shieldguard collapse, and Wraiths hold their own.

Their performance is close enough that you really have to look at what else they bring. Wraiths get 12" moves and Fearless, Lychguard get... the ability to ride Night Scythes? And fun times with Orikan (his save reroll sounds like it only works if you've got RP, oddly). As cool as the 'guard look, Wraiths seem to have them beat out in their own game [unless you happen to usually fight footslooging marines, I guess?]

bodazoka wrote:
Any chance someone can math hammer the comparison between Wraiths and Lychguard for survivability and damage?

I have given it a shot.. and I think I have it figured out that wraith's are 20 odd % more survivable but im not sure on the damage output

Lychguard with sword and board is what im trying to figure out.

It's a bit tricky, the hyperphase swords are AP3 while the Wraiths are rending. So I'm expecting the Lychguard with this set-up to be better at killing MEQ while the Wraiths will be better wounding against 2+ armour saves cause of the rending. I would probably use Terminators as a standard if I was to work that out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

caelim wrote:
It depends entirely on context. For survivability, the difference is 2W wraiths vs. RP on Shieldguard. So against anything S10 or with ID, Shieldguard inch ahead. Wraiths pull ahead if they're getting RP. Otherwise, they're exactly the same in the long term.
As any MMO healer will tell you, Health [2W] is preferable over Avoidance [RP], because there's less opportunity for bad luck to wipe you out.
However, you're paying +10pts on the Wraiths, mainly for mobility. So Shieldguard come out about 33% tougher per-point, but risk being utterly ignorable.

Damage output really depends on the target. Vs. unarmoured targets, Wraiths start ahead with slightly more attacks (per model and per point), as well as +1 strength. The closer you get to a 3+/no inv, the better Shieldguard get. Once you hit 2+, Shieldguard collapse, and Wraiths hold their own.

Their performance is close enough that you really have to look at what else they bring. Wraiths get 12" moves and Fearless, Lychguard get... the ability to ride Night Scythes? And fun times with Orikan (his save reroll sounds like it only works if you've got RP, oddly). As cool as the 'guard look, Wraiths seem to have them beat out in their own game [unless you happen to usually fight footslooging marines, I guess?]

I think this a good assessment overall. Have an exalt.

OGRYNS!

Doing a little crude math on the bus today told me that, really, any heavy or even medium infantry will stop Wraiths in their tracks and probably wear them down over time.

That means Ogryns, Tyrant Guard, Grotesques, Broadsides (seriously! Broadsides won't win but they will tie them up). Mutilators! Obliterators. Terminators. That sort of thing. Nobs.

Actually Assault Marines on the charge have a pretty good chance of killing a Wraith, and then tying up the remaining ones.

That's part of what makes Wraiths so powerful. Nobody runs close combat troops, because they get shot to pieces. Wraiths, however, due to their speed and resilience, can take a pounding and still pose a threat, and they are threatening precisely because due to the meta, no one takes the units that are actually good at fighting them. Necrons win, again, by virtue of being really weird.

You know what Wraiths punk?

Scorpions
Banshees
Harlequins
Wraithblades w/swords
Wraithblades w/axes
Storm Guardians
Shining Spears
Wraithlords
Bladesworn
Corsairs

WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.

So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?

Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.

Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).

Force weapons are a decent answer to these guys, but most of those characters will be going at a lesser Init step. The main other thing I can think of is Strength 10 in melee but that is hardly common.

Am I missing something on force weapons? they still allow an invul and a RP roll (altough at -1), its twice as leathal as a non-force weapon (dealing 2 wounds at once), but its not nearly as available.

Bharring wrote:
You know what Wraiths punk?

Scorpions
Banshees
Harlequins
Wraithblades w/swords
Wraithblades w/axes
Storm Guardians
Shining Spears
Wraithlords
Bladesworn
Corsairs

WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.

So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?

Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.

Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).

Are you sure they easily beat Wraithlords? They seem like pretty much exactly the kind of unit that would be best against them.

1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 5/12 = a wraithlord kills a wraith in about 5 turns

1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 3 = 1/4 = it takes about 12 turns for a wraith to kill a wraithlord

wraithlord does not match up against a single wraith in price though.

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know what Wraiths punk?

Scorpions
Banshees
Harlequins
Wraithblades w/swords
Wraithblades w/axes
Storm Guardians
Shining Spears
Wraithlords
Bladesworn
Corsairs

WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.

So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?

Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.

Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).

Are you sure they easily beat Wraithlords? They seem like pretty much exactly the kind of unit that would be best against them.

1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 5/12 = a wraithlord kills a wraith in about 5 turns

1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 3 = 1/4 = it takes about 12 turns for a wraith to kill a wraithlord

Not really.
A unit of 5 Wraiths has 20 attacks on the charge.
I'd ignore the Wraithlord anyway. He's slow and his damage output is meh.

 BoomWolf wrote:
wraithlord does not match up against a single wraith in price though.

Sure, looks like 2 Wraiths and a Wraithlord are about evenly matched though and are about the same pointswise (The Wraithlord is actually about 30 points more). The Lord will be getting psychic support though.

In any case, Wraiths do not "punk" them.

3 wraiths + Coil at 135

3x 3x (1/2)(1/6)(1) = x 3x 1/12 = 9/12 wound/round
1x 3x (1/2)(5/6)(1/3) = 5/12 wound/round

3x Wraith have 6 wounds
Wlord has 3 wounds

Assuming neither charge, no RP, and both are full at start, Wraithlord dies before swinging in combat #4, EV of 15/12 wounds on one wraith. Odds of dropping one are tiny.

Wlord can get a little shooting in first, but is unlikely to wound a Wraith before Wraiths charge the Lord.

Advantage, blindingly the Wraiths over the Wraithlord.

 wuestenfux wrote:

A unit of 5 Wraiths has 20 attacks on the charge.
I'd ignore the Wraithlord anyway. He's slow and his damage output is meh.

We're not talking about FIVE Wraiths.

Alcibiades wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

A unit of 5 Wraiths has 20 attacks on the charge.
I'd ignore the Wraithlord anyway. He's slow and his damage output is meh.

We're not talking about FIVE Wraiths.

Talking about less than 5 Wraiths (and I often run 15 Wraiths) makes not sense either.

We'll, 5 Wraiths is, what, 200 points or so. That's 1 and 2/3 Wraithlords.

30 points is 2/3rds of a Wraith. Far more than rounding error. Much closer to 3 than 2.

Even with 2 wraiths:

Wraiths do 2x3x(1/2)(1/6), or 1/2 wound/round
Wlord does 5/12 wound/round

Bottom of combat round 5,
Wraiths have done 2.5 wounds.
Wlord finally finishes one (25/12ths)

Solo wraith now does .25 wounds/round. Kills Wlord at top of 7th combat round.

WLord does a total of (35/12ths) wounds, meaning Wraith #2 has about a 11/12th chance of having list a wound.

So, against just 2 models, the Wlord dies. Despite costing much more. Without the Wraiths getting to charge.

Not a traditional 'punking' but that'd be a hard-counter if Wraiths weren't so win against everything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's round it up to 2 Wlords! (~240?)
And Wraiths down to 4! (180).

Wraiths still win! By a lot! Assuming both Wlords charge the Wraiths on the same turn!

All of that is ridiculously set up against the Wraiths, but they still come out on top. Rediculous.

New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?

They would have the best chance. But with no Invul can get hulled within two or three rounds. just better hope to roll those 6s and remove them off the table.


Edit: It also depends on the charge.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
New to this whole debate so I apologize but doesn't the Imperial Knight still run rough shod over Wraiths?

That much I5 rending? Nah. The fight could go either way, but there's no way the Knight isn't either dead or limping with more than the Wraith unit's points blown out of it.

thread merge:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634353.page

Alcibiades wrote:
OGRYNS!

Doing a little crude math on the bus today told me that, really, any heavy or even medium infantry will stop Wraiths in their tracks and probably wear them down over time.

That means Ogryns, Tyrant Guard, Grotesques, Broadsides (seriously! Broadsides won't win but they will tie them up). Mutilators! Obliterators. Terminators. That sort of thing. Nobs.

Actually Assault Marines on the charge have a pretty good chance of killing a Wraith, and then tying up the remaining ones.

I worked out that 18 wraith attacks will kill off 3.5 standard marines on average. When I used Death Company it dropped down to about 2.33. In order for the Death Company to effectively hold their own in combat I worked out it was essential for them to get the charge at +1I for a BSF formation and also to get that strength 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Fenris Frost wrote:
Force weapons are a decent answer to these guys, but most of those characters will be going at a lesser Init step. The main other thing I can think of is Strength 10 in melee but that is hardly common.

So for Blood Angels we are talking Mephiston provided he can get Sanguine Sword or Force off for psychic powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
You know what Wraiths punk?

Scorpions
Banshees
Harlequins
Wraithblades w/swords
Wraithblades w/axes
Storm Guardians
Shining Spears
Wraithlords
Bladesworn
Corsairs

WKs can handle them sortof. They lose marginally, but get a few shots off (probably at other things) first.

So, Eldar is WK or DIAF?

Wraiths have to be compared to Termies and Wraithblades, due to their cost, durability, and their killyness is a bit less than Termies, but much more than Wraithblades. But Wraiths take the cake easily for durability. So the counters for those? They move 6'. Shoot them while they move up. For Wraiths? You have less than half the time. They have ASM mobility. You can't move away from them fast enough to matter. You can't shoot them fast enough to matter. Most armies can't assault them well enough to matter. Most armies cant tarpit them. Most armies can't MSU across the board cheap enough to matter.

Some armies can counter assault them. Some can't (Marines will have trouble, Eldar don't have a chance with anything short of Wraithknights. As in plural).

Are you sure they easily beat Wraithlords? They seem like pretty much exactly the kind of unit that would be best against them.

1/2 x 5/6 x 1/3 = 5/36 x 3 = 5/12 = a wraithlord kills a wraith in about 5 turns

1/2 x 1/6 = 1/12 x 3 = 1/4 = it takes about 12 turns for a wraith to kill a wraithlord

I did the math earlier on with a Wraithknight vs 6 Wraiths which is a comparable cost. No doubt they tie each other up for pretty much the entire game but the Wraithknight manages a draw basically wiping out all the wraiths in return to getting wiped out provided it has a 5++ and also gets the charge. Otherwise the wraiths eventually win.