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OK, enough of this.

Run over them with enough trukks that they break coherency, then Crunch! They are removed from play.

Thats exactly what I think too. A smart player dont need to spam them. Take 2 units of them in a TAC list and nearly every opponent starts fighting an uphill battle. You cant get rid of them without using your whole army to fight them, even without RP (see list below).

While they might not be that hard hitting as other units, they can still handle nearly every unit in the game. Combined with their speed (12" ignore everthing in the way, fleet charge) they can choose the targets that are really worth it. If their is none, fine, use them to grab objectives and for board control or defend your most important units against other assault troops that are more expensive most of the time and will be wiped out in 2-3turns.

The only two Options I can see so far are tarpitting and some psyker stuff (reducing T), but both come with drawbacks, arent reliable or arent available to every army in the game.


So here is the Mathhammer how many shots/melee attacks it needs to kill 1 Wraith WITHOUT RP:



It basically says, killing is no real option. Everbody who states its not different like before, when they wereT4: It is! Before you could use volume of fire or just double them out. Now both isnt that easy anymore. A guardsman now needs twice as many shots as before... Just for DE with poison its business as usual...

 Desubot wrote:

gungo wrote:
Lots of hyperbole thrown around by necron players about how unbeatable wraith lists are. The fact of the matter is I am positive there will be wraith lists at the LVO and I would put money down that there is litterally no chance it will win. I doubt it even makes top 5. There is plenty of hard coubters to the list none of which is list tailoring. The greentide is a clear list that wraiths lists are completely and utterly ineffective against. Go ahead spam 3 harvest detschments and then watch as 18 wraiths and 3 spyders get ground down in 2-3 turns. People keep telling you these hard counters but putting ur fingers in your ears is not going to stop them. Regardless the LVO is happening soon and will surely end this debate about how il unstoppable wraiths are. In a tournament setting they just don't have enough offensive but have fun beating your local players fluffy builds.

Hyperbole?

We literally mathed it out. you need an OBSCENE amount of damage to take out a unit.

that is mathematically fact.

Im at least glad people are running green tide, though i haven't seen one in forever.

Edit: as well not sure which ones do but some Tournies out right ban Formations and the like. Will need to see how they handle crons.

I love running Green Tide, but I don't run it very often because though I play with a lot of cool guys, they don't exactly like the time it takes for me to set up and the overall length of the game. I've gotten loads faster at unpacking/set up/moving, but it can still take an obnoxiously long time to finish a game sometimes. XD Still stupid fun to have hundreds of infantry going.

Ordo Xenos inquisitor with rad and psykotrope grenades is 55 pts. Psykotrope test on their stat line I, and rad grenades lower the t by 1.

Then hit them with power fists.

Guess I know what character I should add to my t-hammer termies against necrons?

niv-mizzet wrote:
We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.

In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.

Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.

In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.

Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.

I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.

That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.

Basically however it's not a waagh banner, it's the lucky stikk on a big Mek with pk and kff. Meaning most of my front line orcs have a 5++ and 5+++ and a sprinkling of 4+. The tide also has the ability to move, run, charge each turn with reroll on distance. It's not fleet beasts but they are not slow either. I don't think you truly understand the durability of this unit either. If you read the battle reports in the above section you will see a tau gunline putting 5 turns of shooting into a tide wasn't able to kill it; and you think a necron wraith spam list will magically wipe it off the board in 2 turns of shooting? Good luck with that! And I don't know where your pulling this against th odds nonsense according to the post above at ws5 it only take 6.75 basic boyz (27 hits)charging to kill 1 wraith. While each wraith will kill one ork boy each player turn on average.
You also might want to read the battlereports in the above section on the new wraiths with and without the harvest detschment because everyone of them states while wraiths are good they still have the same issues they had last edition In that they still die to weight of atks and lack enough offense to avoid being tied up. some even said they preferred the wraith spam listof last edition that had a destroyer lord attachéd who would tank all the weak hits that normally wear down the wraiths.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Ordo Xenos inquisitor with rad and psykotrope grenades is 55 pts. Psykotrope test on their stat line I, and rad grenades lower the t by 1.

Then hit them with power fists.

Guess I know what character I should add to my t-hammer termies against necrons?

Finally a glimmer of hope. The Inquisitor could also take ML1 and a Force Weapon. That would also ID beyound the first round of combat. Stick a Sanguinary Priest with a PF and they hit on 3's.

Wraiths are not overpowered. Wraiths are, however, boring as hell.

They are impossible to kill with RP but have not very much damage output. That means that what they will do is charge/be charged by some unit and then sit there until the end of the game.

(You want to know what's _really_ indestructable? Lychguard with shields in the Decurion near the Overlord. The things are absurd.)

What concerns me is not Wraiths or even the usper new Flayed Ones but the humble Warriors and Immortals in the Decurion.

A block of 20 warriors in the Decurion with the Overlord nearby cannot be killed. It's incredible. You can pepper them with Earthshakers and they won't go down, and if they do the Ghost Arc just brings them back again. They're better than just about every other troop in the game in pretty much every way, and unlike in the previously codex you can't just charge them. They have no weakness other than sub-par Initiative.

It really concerns me.

Mavnas wrote:
Do Tau have a way to lower T?

I think in my theory craft exercises the best results have come from applying Rad Grenades or Enfeeble. This brings down their ID threshold and helps lower S weapons which have high RoF not suck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pretty much every wound is the same vs. 3++, but one that IDs is 2.5x as effective. 2 wounds with 4+++ -> 1 wound with 5+++.

-1 T makes S4 50% more effective (-33% of shots required)

Tau does have a way to reduce T by 1. It is Darkstrider but only his unit gets the buff. Also he can only join FW or PF (I am not 100% positive, don't have my codex with me right now.)

 Desubot wrote:


Makes me wana run Wyches Edit: ok not really.

lol. I see what you did there but at least the Wyches would probably tarpit them for an eternity in CC if not eventually win through attrition. Finally! Something that Wyches can do!

gungo wrote:
And I don't know where your pulling this against th odds nonsense according to the post above at ws5 it only take 6.75 basic boyz (27 hits)charging to kill 1 wraith. While each wraith will kill one ork boy each player turn on average.

its very generous to the orks (and unrealistic) to assume that they'll be getting the charge off. With a 12" move, fleet and the ability to completely ignore ALL terrain and intervening models its much more likely that the wraiths will be getting the charge. and since they can ignore all terrain and models it will be very easy for them to control the engagement and charge you from an angle that makes it very difficult for you to get the 18 boyz into combat needed to kill a wraith per turn (54 attacks at strength 3 ws5 averages 2 wounds).

 DarthOvious wrote:

Tautastic wrote:
I can only talk for a Tau army but how would this fare against the wraiths.

First off this is very dependent on terrain and deployment of units. Get a unit of tetra put at least 2 marker token on the spyder. Have 2 skyrays each use 1 marker and nuke the spyder, the skyray themselves could use their own markers if the situation presents itself. 12 S8 and AP3 at BS5 should be enough to kill it out right. Then have the rest of your army just blast the wraiths with volume of fire.

Buying the Spyders is unnecessary though. What we worked out is that it takes a ridiculous amount of firepower to kill them. Here let me show you:

With BS5, i.e. Meaning you have had 2 markerlights per turn on the wraiths.

High Yield Missile Pods - 133 shots - 129.31 hits (inc re-rolls to hit) - 107.75 wounds - 35.92 failed saves & wounds.
Smart Missile System - 222 shots - 215.83 hits (inc re-rols to hit) - 107.92 wounds - 35.97 failed saves & wounds.

So I guess the question is how many Broadsides are you taking? Cause one unit gives you 12 HYMP shots a turn and 12 SMS shots a turn. So 3 units of Broadsides will give you 36 HYMP shots a turn and 36 SMS shots a turn. So two turns of shooting will cause 31.11 wounds overall with those Broadsides providing they have BS5. The Broadsides cost 65pts each and then you have the Pathfinders on top to aid you hitting on 2's. You'll come out at a cost roundabout the same as the wraiths.

Of course in theory here you need to count on a few things for this to all work. Firstly you get BS5 and you get it against all 3 units of wraiths. Secondly you don't lose any Broadside models in the process over the two turns or your pathfinders for that matter as well and lastly that the Necron player doesn't have anything he can throw backfield quickly to distract you or take out the Broadsides.

Well if I know I will be against someone who does not mind spamming the best units in their codex then I will be spamming my favorites too First off this army would not be very fun for the opponent and I would lose friends fairly quickly hahaha. With that in mind my army would consist of:

2 full units of dual BC
3 single units of TL FB

Iontide with EWO, SMS, and Earth Castle (My Warlord)

3 units of 2 tetras

1 full unit of missleside with EWO and 6 missile drones

Formation
2 full units of missileside with EWO and 6 missile drones each
Iontide with EWO and SMS

Total points is 1853 (Just take out an EWO on one of the broadside to be under 1850)

Now I am not very knowledgeable about the new necron codex but it seems most of their guns range is 24'' (please correct me if I am wrong). With that known, I will deploy my units at least 25'' away from the wraiths (best charge range they have 24'' but realistically around 21''). The at least 31'' away from the rest of his army. Even if the necron goes first I will have a full turn of mostly unmolested shooting. Now if I go first that would be 2ish turn. Lets say the necron goes first and he moves all his units 6'', most of his guns would still be out of range. Then I would assume that the wraiths will move at least 16'' away from my broadside to have a turn 2 assault., they could go full rush and be theoretically be 8-9'' away from them. Now my turn:

A unit of tetra will shoot at each unit of wraiths which will result on average 3 ML. They do have pulse carbine too...but lets be real that might tickle them a little hahaha
A unit of broadside will take 2ML which will give them BS5 and the drones BS4. For calculation sakes lets round 35/36 to 100% since their weapons are TL. This will result in 20 missile hits (8 from the drones) and 12 SMS hits. Those will result in 22.67 wounds (16.67 from missiles and 6 from SMS) and will cause around 7.5 unsaved wounds or 3.75 dead wraiths. Now have the unit of BC crisis take 1ML which will result in 16 hits and 8 wounds which is 2.67 unsaved wounds. Add those together and that is roughly 5 dead wraiths. Let the other one die in overwatch with supporting fire. Do this again and that is 10 dead wraiths.
The third unit of broadside will do again around 7.5 wounds on the last unit of wraiths. Go nova charge with the Earth Castled Riptide and go for double SMS (8/9 he will pass it, so lets assume he passes). Now take the last ML on the last unit of wraiths bumping the riptide to BS4. Now his Ion gun will deal around 2 wounds and the SMS will deal roughly 3.5 wounds which leads to 1.8 unsaved wounds. Combined with the broadside that will be roughly 9 unsaved wounds or 4.5 dead wraiths.

So out of the 18 wraiths 14.5 will be dead. The other 3.5 wraiths could easily die to overwatch with supporting fire. The 3 FB suits will be in reserves and the other rippy will do w/e he wants. Now if the tau went first all of his wraiths will be most likely will be dead and probably a small chunk of the rest of his army. Now I understand there were a lot of speculations made but I think they are fairy reasonable. Will I ever play this army...probably not. Way too much cheese and $$$ hahaha.

Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...

All they can do is assault, or try to hold objectives. But they lack obsec for the latter and hilariously enough they can be tank shocked VERY easily since they have AP- weapons, meaning it would be really stupid to death or glory with a near 50 pt wraith to maybe get one HP off that cheap transport.

Besides durability I am not seeing where the damage is supposed to come from necrons besides Tomb blades which compete for the very slot these mystical wraiths occupy, so I guess your stuck fielding heavy destroyers, but 50pts per las canon shot isn't crazy either. AB's are now nearly identical to rifleman dreads which are nothing to write home about and NS are the AA version but even more expensive. Gaus will only get you so far. It's a 24 inch RF weapon and thank god it has the gaus special rule because you can't take special weapons like other armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Tautasic- your absolutely right yet someone will post numbers where all 18 wraiths are from the harvest in a decurion and will have 4+++ no matter what, when or where they are so your list sucks.... Meanwhile each CH formation alone costs a minimum of 368 in a TAC list with whip coils, added to the naked reclamation legion at 479.

so 1583 and there are no tesla canons in the list at all. No upgrades on the lord or tomb blades, naked

So your list literally has nothing to fear from shooting which even in a CH decurion with that 4+++ your killing ~2.5 wraiths per missile side team. So in 2 turns that 5 per unit leaving 1 wraith in each unit to eat overwatch.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...

All they can do is assault, or try to hold objectives. But they lack obsec for the latter and hilariously enough they can be tank shocked VERY easily since they have AP- weapons, meaning it would be really stupid to death or glory with a near 50 pt wraith to maybe get one HP off that cheap transport.

Besides durability I am not seeing where the damage is supposed to come from necrons besides Tomb blades which compete for the very slot these mystical wraiths occupy, so I guess your stuck fielding heavy destroyers, but 50pts per las canon shot isn't crazy either. AB's are now nearly identical to rifleman dreads which are nothing to write home about and NS are the AA version but even more expensive. Gaus will only get you so far. It's a 24 inch RF weapon and thank god it has the gaus special rule because you can't take special weapons like other armies.

The damage from a cron army will most likely be caused by weight of fire. Sure, gauss will only take you so far, but 40 BS4 shots average a dead land raider. That's one warrior blob in rapid fire range. How many armies have basic troops that handle heavy armour that easily? The real issue for necrons are low armour saves and high toughness combined, everything else is covered by their basic weaponry. Wraiths can tie up most of these threats, and that's going to be one of their main uses.

Well saying that it's easy is a stretch, the problem is going to be getting your 20 warriors into RF range. they have a 24" range, that's nothing to brag about. In fact except for AV11+ and T8+ they are just bolt guns and nobody is bragging about bolters are they.

Not to mention, who takes land raiders anymore? As efficient and awesome as gaus is against AV14, it's no better against a 35 point rhino.

Your right, necron troops will be a PITA to shoot off objectives, but they aren't going to be doing much damage themselves either. This to me is the biggest issue Necrons face. I imagine MSU AV13 spam necrons with warriors and ghost arcs would be their best list, and will just try to win through attrition and Obsec.

gungo wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.

In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.

Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.

In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.

Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.

I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.

That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.

Basically however it's not a waagh banner, it's the lucky stikk on a big Mek with pk and kff. Meaning most of my front line orcs have a 5++ and 5+++ and a sprinkling of 4+. The tide also has the ability to move, run, charge each turn with reroll on distance. It's not fleet beasts but they are not slow either. I don't think you truly understand the durability of this unit either. If you read the battle reports in the above section you will see a tau gunline putting 5 turns of shooting into a tide wasn't able to kill it; and you think a necron wraith spam list will magically wipe it off the board in 2 turns of shooting? Good luck with that! And I don't know where your pulling this against th odds nonsense according to the post above at ws5 it only take 6.75 basic boyz (27 hits)charging to kill 1 wraith. While each wraith will kill one ork boy each player turn on average.
You also might want to read the battlereports in the above section on the new wraiths with and without the harvest detschment because everyone of them states while wraiths are good they still have the same issues they had last edition In that they still die to weight of atks and lack enough offense to avoid being tied up. some even said they preferred the wraith spam listof last edition that had a destroyer lord attachéd who would tank all the weak hits that normally wear down the wraiths.

I know math. I understand that the entire mob has essentially a 44% damage mitigation. (Assuming you fit a painboy in as well.)

1st: I never said wraith spam. If you read some of my posts (including the one you quoted,) I've actually been saying wraith spam isn't very good. They make awesome support units for an army, not an army by themselves. I'm talking about 1 or 2 harvest formations in an otherwise-balanced decurion.

2nd: you're not getting the charge against wraiths that are just waiting for you to get close enough to counter assault. Period. To assume you are is to assume the necron player is either very dumb or you bribed him to take a fall. The pressure is on you to run up and charge, since the crons will happily gunline at you for as long as they can, and when you always move max speed forward, it's very easy to put a counter assault unit where the orks will be 11-14 inches away in their own assault phase, and have a -2 terrain penalty to charge, thus making it impossible. The wraiths can then hop right out and get all snug with you for a no fail charge on their turn.

3rd: 27 WS 5 s4 attacks do not kill a harvest wraith on average. Moot point since they'll be charging you, not the other way around.

4th: Again, their damage output is nothing special and not what we've been all up on about. It's the fact that with 300 points, I can actually speedbump a full, unhurt green tide for a turn. How many units can do that for as few points? If the hypothetical necron list was running 2 harvests, they could do it twice, and still have significantly more army left to do other things than the orks have! Eventually, all the close range shooting and then being held in place by a squad of wraiths is going to wear them down. If the crons back up to their edge in a dawn of war, they won't need to counter assault til bottom of 3/top of 4, and with two turns of speed bump, they can hold your tide there until a possible game end, even without shooting it. Then they can send out Jsj destroyers and veil deep strikers to go grab objectives while harvest wraiths are sacrificing themselves as a spyder watches. They still have scarabs to run around annoying the rest of your army as well.

(Also I'm assuming the tide is still healthy all the time on the math. It's possible by the time the 2nd speedbump ties them up, that they just won't have the gas to kill them all before the end of the game, due to being worn down by successive turns of shooting. If the tide is even half dead at the time of the 2nd speedbump unit, they're going to be stuck there for the rest of the game.)

And if you roll purge the alien with green tide, well, some armies just have a near auto-win game type.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...

why? they could be ws1 str1 ap6 attacks 1 and it wouldnt really change anything at all.

but for the record a video batrep posted a couple of pages back showed a single 3-man unit of wraiths tear through not one but two dreadknights within the span of about four turns. in fact they killed the second one before it could even strike.

Yeah again the fact that the unit STAYS ALIVE and is mobile makes it a good unit already. Then you give them a decent enough combat profile to be on par with most bully units, as well as some small elite combat units, and be able to hurt anything in the game since they hit almost literally like an assault cannon, and you get a "wtf how is this so good" unit.

Good necron players (trying to run a good list) WILL have at least a unit of wraiths as a support unit if they have any ground presence at all. They're too good at doing any support strategy like tarpitting, counter assaulting, ripping tanks apart, soaking damage, holding objectives, disrupting enemy problem units...
Essentially, with a rec legion and a harvest in your list, you can spend the rest on threats and know that you've got body count and support elements pretty well covered. As points go up, add in the occasional extra harvest group.

niv-mizzet wrote:

gungo wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
We aren't going gaga over the wraiths offensive potential, we're going gaga over their defensive potential.

In general, in 40K, offense trumps defense. Their defense is so good that they're an exception.

Now bear in mind, I'm not TOTALLY sure of the rules behind green tide, but from what I gather, it's a big unit of 100 orks with 10 or so nobs, and usually has a boss and painboy as well as a ws5 banner.

In your given situation, say I back the wraiths (and spyder) up near my other units, who proceed to open fire on the tide of orks. I quickly run out of back step room in one or two turns. So on this next one, with nowhere to run, I move the canopteks as close as possible to the tide with the spyder a bit behind. Then step into rapid fire range with my vulnerable backfield and open fire more. Then I charge the tide with 6 wraiths.

Even if the entire tide was still alive AND close enough to attack magically, it's STILL against the odds to kill all 6 wraiths. (Assuming a warboss pk, a bunch of pk nobs, a waaagh banner etc.) Including overwatch, you'll fall just short, which means that on your turn, you'll finish off a wraith of two, and then be available as targets on the necron turn again. That's four turns of shooting due to the snackrifice of a 250 point unit backed up by a 50 point unit.

I'll keep saying it til someone on the internet listens. Wraiths aren't amazing hammers that kill anything. They are stupendously good support units that can counter charge, tarpit, and disrupt the enemy while having unbelievable resilience. They do better in tac lists as support, not in a wraith spam list.

That same strategy wouldn't work if you just had a bunch of seperate ork units instead of one green tide though.

Basically however it's not a waagh banner, it's the lucky stikk on a big Mek with pk and kff. Meaning most of my front line orcs have a 5++ and 5+++ and a sprinkling of 4+. The tide also has the ability to move, run, charge each turn with reroll on distance. It's not fleet beasts but they are not slow either. I don't think you truly understand the durability of this unit either. If you read the battle reports in the above section you will see a tau gunline putting 5 turns of shooting into a tide wasn't able to kill it; and you think a necron wraith spam list will magically wipe it off the board in 2 turns of shooting? Good luck with that! And I don't know where your pulling this against th odds nonsense according to the post above at ws5 it only take 6.75 basic boyz (27 hits)charging to kill 1 wraith. While each wraith will kill one ork boy each player turn on average.
You also might want to read the battlereports in the above section on the new wraiths with and without the harvest detschment because everyone of them states while wraiths are good they still have the same issues they had last edition In that they still die to weight of atks and lack enough offense to avoid being tied up. some even said they preferred the wraith spam listof last edition that had a destroyer lord attachéd who would tank all the weak hits that normally wear down the wraiths.

I know math. I understand that the entire mob has essentially a 44% damage mitigation. (Assuming you fit a painboy in as well.)

1st: I never said wraith spam. If you read some of my posts (including the one you quoted,) I've actually been saying wraith spam isn't very good. They make awesome support units for an army, not an army by themselves. I'm talking about 1 or 2 harvest formations in an otherwise-balanced decurion.

2nd: you're not getting the charge against wraiths that are just waiting for you to get close enough to counter assault. Period. To assume you are is to assume the necron player is either very dumb or you bribed him to take a fall. The pressure is on you to run up and charge, since the crons will happily gunline at you for as long as they can, and when you always move max speed forward, it's very easy to put a counter assault unit where the orks will be 11-14 inches away in their own assault phase, and have a -2 terrain penalty to charge, thus making it impossible. The wraiths can then hop right out and get all snug with you for a no fail charge on their turn.

3rd: 27 WS 5 s4 attacks do not kill a harvest wraith on average. Moot point since they'll be charging you, not the other way around.

4th: Again, their damage output is nothing special and not what we've been all up on about. It's the fact that with 300 points, I can actually speedbump a full, unhurt green tide for a turn. How many units can do that for as few points? If the hypothetical necron list was running 2 harvests, they could do it twice, and still have significantly more army left to do other things than the orks have! Eventually, all the close range shooting and then being held in place by a squad of wraiths is going to wear them down. If the crons back up to their edge in a dawn of war, they won't need to counter assault til bottom of 3/top of 4, and with two turns of speed bump, they can hold your tide there until a possible game end, even without shooting it. Then they can send out Jsj destroyers and veil deep strikers to go grab objectives while harvest wraiths are sacrificing themselves as a spyder watches. They still have scarabs to run around annoying the rest of your army as well.

(Also I'm assuming the tide is still healthy all the time on the math. It's possible by the time the 2nd speedbump ties them up, that they just won't have the gas to kill them all before the end of the game, due to being worn down by successive turns of shooting. If the tide is even half dead at the time of the 2nd speedbump unit, they're going to be stuck there for the rest of the game.)

And if you roll purge the alien with green tide, well, some armies just have a near auto-win game type.

1) no one disagrees wraiths are a good support unit. They just aren't anywhere unbeatable and very much just like they were last edition. Please feel free to take a double harvest formstion in a reclamation detachment that's over 750 points without many upgrades to make your mandatory units worthwhile.
2) please feel free to sit bunch up in your deployment zone and let the orks pound your bunched up units with str8ap2 blasts that cost 30 points each, and a full squad of lootas with thier 15d3 str 7 hits and whatever other supprt units the Orks will include as well. But let's say I don't feel comfortable making a failed charge using a move, run, charge + rerolls attempt I'll just have to be content with shooting up to 108 str 4 shoots followed by another 108 snapshots that's if you end up making your charge attempt. As they sit there taking it in the face until I allow them a charge attempt. All the whole your taking pot shots at t4, 4+,5++,5+++ units that if you get lucky wounding only takes out a 6 point model. The pressure is not on me because if your wraiths are sitting back doing nothing then while the tide gets into charge range all the while taking shoots on you then they have done thier job.
3) talk to the person above that posted it I believe it was based on no RP from harvest.
4) if your looking to speed bump the tide for a turn you do realize there are cheaper units to do that with. To answer your question there are plenty of cheaper options to speed bump the tide for a turn. You also realize with 103 models with7 Powerklaws the tide can multi charge? Sure it's a disorganized charge but most times it doesn't matter. You act as if a green tide is the entire list. It's not just like your two harvest detachments are 750plus points without upgrades for the rest of the chaff you have to buy; the tide as I been discussing is only around 1k points. Leaving plenty of points for me to take a full detachment of 5 str8ap2 blast Mek guns for 150 points, 200 more points for 15 x d3 str7 ap4 lootas, 12x str8ap3 tank hunter rokkits and for me at least 2 squads of 3warbikers w nobs with str7 big choppas to grab objectives with 2 min size gretchon objective secured speed bump units in an 1850 point game. i have plenty of long range high volume shooting able to pound your wraiths or other annoying units that are hiding all bunched up in your deployment zone doing nothing.

The tide doesn't need to be healthy the basic Orks are 6 point speed bumps used to protect the 7str9ap2 Powerklaws nobs and painboy w poisen and warboss with str8ap5 big choppa with fearless banner, and big mek w str9ap2 powerklaw with lucky stikk granting reroll to hit and wound and a 5++ kff aoe bubble; however basic Orks do a great job of killing wraiths by weight of attacks. Purge the alien doesn't matter you get zero points until you completely wipe out every model in the fearless greentide. That's no easy task and if your are able to do that then you practically tabled me. The rest of the list I mentioned above only gives you 7 units to earn points off of. There is a great thread about the green tide in a tournament where the player won the purge the Alien game versus a tau gunline.

Uh I'm not sure you're understanding.

I already said purge the alien was awesome for green tide. Are you trying to argue against that or something?

The fact that the tide can multiassault is irrelevant. Against necrons using wraiths to hold you off, THEY will charge YOU.
If you get to the point where you ARE multi assaulting with the tide, then you've already won.

The rec legion isn't dead weight. They're necrons. They survive stuff and just keep on shooting. They don't drop like flies then run away. Even s8ap2 blasts will still grant a 5+ RP on the basic dudes, plus cover if applicable.
I'm not sure where a some of these people are getting the idea that the rec legion just sits there as a tax.

Mek guns are awesome, thankfully I find it rare to meet an ork player that can afford the damn models.

My point was that as long as it isn't purge the alien, a light amount of early game pepper fire and a couple harvests can hold up the whole tide for less than the tide cost. The scarabs aren't even considered in that. They can Zerg towards the back line orks along with say...deep strike flayed ones with the invisi-staff. With rec+ 2 harvests in a 2k list, you have a sturdy main force of bodies and a VERY GOOD queen-of-all-trades support force. Literally all the rest of the points can be spent on toys and cool offense units.

If you were near me, I'd play you a game with them to illustrate the point, but alas...

As a side example, in one of the games I played as crons against BA, I had a harvest team held back to guard against a 15 death company+ Astorath deep strike squad. He picked a good spot where I couldn't quite charge them, and I had other assault elements to shoot at, so I just made a little wraithwall for them to charge.

He did a little worse than average and only got 5 wounds in, killing 2 wraiths, then was tied up the rest of the game without that massive charge bonus. 258 point unit neutralizing a 600 point combat specialist unit IN combat, when they even got the charge.

I find that it is easiest, as an eldar player, to shoot troops into them, and special weapons if you cn afford not shooting them at other elements of the army, then assault with wraithblades. - If you roll well for psychic powers, you can chew them up with not too much difficulty.

With blood angles, shoot tacticals into them, plasmagun and all, and then send in the death company (with a mix of chainswords power weapons and thunder hammers) to finish them off.

Also have you checked wraith math? Harvest wraiths care about nil about your 108 s4 shots at poor BS. You will by odds kill 1 wraith with shooting, and just wound one with snapping.

And this is assuming you have all the orks close enough to fire at a unit that has a 6 model footprint.

Which brings me back to a point.
I did the averages for your combat effectiveness based on the idea that you would manage to get the entire green tide within 2" of b2b. In reality, that's completely absurd. You're at most getting 30 guys swinging in if he rolls the wraiths in in a line. If he chains them out so that only a couple make b2b, you're not getting close to that.

That means you can cut my damage calculations in combat into a third realistically. It'll take the tide a couple rounds at least to chew them up with only the front teeth.

I suspect that the codex was rushed and the Decurion rules not fully worked out. That's because if the RP increase worked onty on the Reclamation Legion part of the formation, the issues would not be nearly as awful.


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Why are people talking about Nob power klaws? They're not very effective against Wraiths, against which you want a large quantity of high-S attacks and AP does not matter. Big Choppas are better against Wraiths.

I think RP overall should've been 6+, with the decurion offering 5+, and another source required to hit 4+. Cryptek or artifact orb or whatnot.
Also the harvest shouldn't have been a able to get RP at all.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Also have you checked wraith math? Harvest wraiths care about nil about your 108 s4 shots at poor BS. You will by odds kill 1 wraith with shooting, and just wound one with snapping.
.

You do realize there is only 6 wraiths in each detschment? Even if I completely ignored shooting them with the rest of my list. Which id prolly just shoot the spyder of given a choice.
Killing 1.5 wraiths means 5 wraiths charge hitting aproximately 8-9 times vs ws5, causing about 6 wounds vs t4 and killing a grand total of 3 Orks after saves. The Orc player then Attacks with even with lets say 1/3 the list within range of those 5 models, your looking at a minimum of another 2 dead wraiths. The ork player Consolidates surrounding the last three wraiths with at least 25-30 models each. Move run charges the remaining Orks into assault his turn and with that many attacks including all the Powerklaws and big choppas and poison atks your looking at 3 very dead wraiths that killed about 5 Orks in a single game turn worth a whopping 30 points.

As has been repeated a dozen times wraiths have very little offensive prowess and still die to weight of attacks just like they did last edition. Now if you feel the need to build your entire list around around a reclamation legion spamming harvest detschments feel free lord knows the meta is with things like Knights where wraiths excell at, but wraiths aren't unbeatable and have hard counters. The greentide has counters too. I've had a knight paladin shoot it up then stomp around then. Finally die to it only for it to go all apocalyptic blast inside of it and take out almost have the darn tide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
I suspect that the codex was rushed and the Decurion rules not fully worked out. That's because if the RP increase worked onty on the Reclamation Legion part of the formation, the issues would not be nearly as awful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why are people talking about Nob power klaws? They're not very effective against Wraiths, against which you want a large quantity of high-S attacks and AP does not matter. Big Choppas are better against Wraiths.

I do have 4 big choppas (2x warbiker nobs, GT warboss and a basic nob) in the list but you need powrklaws for other lists as well. This wasn't a list tailor to beat a wraith spam its a basic greentide tourney list.

Questions for the thread:

How does Adamantine lance stand up to the wraith spam by math hammer?

Also, curious how long would a typical inquistion melee henchmen squad hold up to one 6 wraith unit?

I typically build my even melee henchmen squads with:

1psyker
4 crusaders with power axes
5 DCA with axe + sword (to use as needed)
1 xenos inquisitor with rad and psychotrope grenades in power armor/force sword and ML1 with needle pistol (usually divination so I get to reroll misses)

Natalya wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...

why? they could be ws1 str1 ap6 attacks 1 and it wouldnt really change anything at all.

but for the record a video batrep posted a couple of pages back showed a single 3-man unit of wraiths tear through not one but two dreadknights within the span of about four turns. in fact they killed the second one before it could even strike.

Simple because they cost 258 pts thats why. If I need to explain why them having low damage output matters on an expensive unit then I can't help you. I don't care how durable they are, they have zero ranged attacks and perform badly in CC.

BTW I watched that video, terrible. The GK player chose to DS his NDK's... why? No synergy in his list for doing that. Then he uses a torrent ap4 flamer against immortals instead of warriors or more importantly scarabs. He also pays for the gatling psilencer... He DS right in front of the enemy battle line instead of behind it or within it. Oh and he disembarks from his rhino in front of the lychguard rather then tank shocking them further back and using it to block them... So many garbage plays in that video its slowed. Not saying the Necorn player played well either btw, all around that video was useless for garnering any useable data from. As soon as you saw a footslogging lychguard unit moving through terrain since turn 1 get a 2nd turn charge you should know better then to treat that as anything but entertainment.

I fail to see how a profile of WS4 S6 A3 I5 with rending "preforms badly" in CC, against most targets it will either erase them, or reduce them to non-threat values before they even swing.
Copule that with their beast status allowing them to completely avoid most things that can actually beat them and you get at the very least a -decent- output.

But than again, he key point is not the output-its the fact the can and will hunt down the units that CANT fight them, like your expensive shooters, or long-ranged support pieces-and that you really cannot do anything about it by roadblocking or killing them, unless you tailored your list.

And even when you DO tailor your list, your odds are slim. when we run calculations with all factors in favor of the non-necron player, the wraiths are still dictating the entire game on their own, and often killing over their price anyway.
And someone killing over your price with a unit that has most of its price settled into DEFENSE, is quite disturbing.

Natalya wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Here's a thought, instead of people constantly posting math hammer on how durable wraiths are you actually post some math hammer on how piss poor their damage output is for a unit that costs more then a riptide, broadside team etc etc...

why? they could be ws1 str1 ap6 attacks 1 and it wouldnt really change anything at all.

but for the record a video batrep posted a couple of pages back showed a single 3-man unit of wraiths tear through not one but two dreadknights within the span of about four turns. in fact they killed the second one before it could even strike.

The only way that people will take notice about how good the wraiths are is when they see them in action and have to play against them. I don't know what more I can do. I have posted stats to show how many shots they can take, which is a ridiculous amount. I even posted the mathhammer against a Wraithknight, which costs roughly the same as base but will cost more when bought with upgrades. I don't think that people realise that this is what Necron players will use them for. Their damage output may not be amazing but it is pretty respectable and considering they are fast units they will be used to tie up opponents main hard hitting units. The rest of the Necron army will take out everything else.

Its pretty safe to assume most studied 40k players understand how good the new wraiths are. There will always be naysayers. They are not the end all auto-win either. No unit is.

 Byte wrote:
Its pretty safe to assume most studied 40k players understand how good the new wraiths are. There will always be naysayers. They are not the end all auto-win either. No unit is.

And Byte drops the mic. Are the new wraiths good? Yes. Game breaking good? Nah.