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Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
2015/02/10 21:15:52
Subject: Re:How to fight the new Wraith EFFECTIVELY?
God In Action wrote: So it's been pointed that Wraiths don't actually have an especially impressive damage output. Their real strength lies in being a tarpit counter to the opposition's big nasty units. To get to that stage, it will also cost them a lot of points (368 points with 6 wraiths and whip coils in a Harvest).
The solution to a tarpit, is another tarpit. The way to beat it is to find a way to tarpit the wraiths with fewer points and then focus on the rest of the army.
So, what can tarpit the wraiths for fewer than 368 points? (and of course don't forget to kill the Spyder to take the Wraiths down a peg, just as you would kill Markerlights in a Tau force first).
-Carefully placed speed bumps. Sacrifice a cheap infantry squad every other turn or two.
-High toughness MC with an invul save.
-Any unit with a large volume of wounds with an invul save.
And finally, make use of high AV or flyer transports to get your units to where they need to be before the Wraiths can scratch at them.
Most importantly, keep your important unit that the wraiths would want to tarpit out of harm's way in a high AV transport, in a flyer, or in reserves, until your own counter-tarpit has tarpitted the wraiths.
More damn tar pits than La Brea.
Pretty glad that I have 3 Stormravens now. At least my Tacticals get furious charge and heavy flamers so I think we're better off than the standard marine Tacticals for this job.
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Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
True to a certain extent, but remember we have those grenades that are actually S6. Sure we can only throw one in the shooting phase but we get one per model in close combat, albeit at I1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 21:19:59
I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational. I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 21:27:09
2015/02/10 21:28:06
Subject: Re:How to fight the new Wraith EFFECTIVELY?
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
Martel732 wrote: I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
Do you play with a lot of terrain at all? Is it purely down to you playing mostly against Eldar & Tau? Hinestly cause if it is then do what I'm doing with 3 Stormravens and 3 Tactical Squads and charge the heck out of anything the turn you come in. The list I'm using currently but will tweak probably consists of:
Angels Fury Spearhead as said above.
Death Company Dreadnoght with drop pod
Death Company in drop pod
2 squads of scots with snipers and camo cloaks
Sanguinary Priest (attached to one of the tacticals)
Fast attack drop (so the other two turn up first turn)
Comes to about 1850 points. Just charge the things that are going to cause you the biggest problem.
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 21:37:47
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
It rocks if you can make it into close combat. I think your problem is getting into close combat to begin with.
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
Killa Kanz are not the ideal target for Gauss. Each HP of a Land Raider is much more valuable.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
It rocks if you can make it into close combat. I think your problem is getting into close combat to begin with.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 21:39:49
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
Yes, but they do have more than that. Heavy Destroyers basically get Lascannons and the Doomsycthe I believe has a S10 blast weapon, etc, etc. It's a bit like Bladestorm on Eldar. When you have it army wide but then have other stuff to support it then it gets a bit ridiculous.
Martel732 wrote: I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
Do you play with a lot of terrain at all? Is it purely down to you playing mostly against Eldar & Tau? Hinestly cause if it is then do what I'm doing with 3 Stormravens and 3 Tactical Squads and charge the heck out of anything the turn you come in. The list I'm using currently but will tweak probably consists of:
Angels Fury Spearhead as said above.
Death Company Dreadnoght with drop pod
Death Company in drop pod
2 squads of scots with snipers and camo cloaks
Sanguinary Priest (attached to one of the tacticals)
Fast attack drop (so the other two turn up first turn)
Comes to about 1850 points. Just charge the things that are going to cause you the biggest problem.
No, there's a mix. Additionally, I"m not a huge fan of the 1000 pt tax to field that formation. I"m also not convinced that formation can do enough damage to Eldar for it to be a TAC choice.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
Hence we are the only army to get a formation which we can assault from when entering from reserve. It may be a temporary effect, but it obviously works in tangent with taking the other weapons in our sqauds (Powerfists, Power Weapons, etc, etc). It also works in tangent with the other upgrades we get, i.e. WS5 thanks to the priest, etc.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
Hence we are the only army to get a formation which we can assault from when entering from reserve. It may be a temporary effect, but it obviously works in tangent with taking the other weapons in our sqauds (Powerfists, Power Weapons, etc, etc). It also works in tangent with the other upgrades we get, i.e. WS5 thanks to the priest, etc.
That formation is so expensive though. And I hate tac squads and am lukewarm towards Stormravens. I don't like our chances vs wraiths. I'll tarpit with DC and hope.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 21:46:02
Martel732 wrote: I keep hearing how krak grenades can bring down Wave Serpents, but all my guys somehow die before they get the chance. Amazing how that works. But I keep hearing about it.
Do you play with a lot of terrain at all? Is it purely down to you playing mostly against Eldar & Tau? Hinestly cause if it is then do what I'm doing with 3 Stormravens and 3 Tactical Squads and charge the heck out of anything the turn you come in. The list I'm using currently but will tweak probably consists of:
Angels Fury Spearhead as said above.
Death Company Dreadnoght with drop pod
Death Company in drop pod
2 squads of scots with snipers and camo cloaks
Sanguinary Priest (attached to one of the tacticals)
Fast attack drop (so the other two turn up first turn)
Comes to about 1850 points. Just charge the things that are going to cause you the biggest problem.
No, there's a mix. Additionally, I"m not a huge fan of the 1000 pt tax to field that formation. I"m also not convinced that formation can do enough damage to Eldar for it to be a TAC choice.
If you have 3 ravens then give it a try. The 3 Stormravens output is actually quite decent and the Tacticals are perfectly fine. I would equip 1 unit of Tacticals with flamer death. At the very least Eldar troops will suffer to burning death.
Also, do a lot Eldar players take a lot of flyers? Are they considered to be good? You could take advantage by air domination.
Martel732 wrote: Gauss is very valuable, as it allows Necron warriors to expand the list of targets they threaten greatly. Chumpo marines have a very short list of units they threaten *in a meaningful manner*.
I'll be honest. The 'wound glance' on 6 is nice on paper, but it didn't really help my Necron opponent last game. Of course, this be anecdotal evidence, but is a huge eye opener. Even with Gauss, it took him 5 turns to glance 6 Killa Kanz to death. KILLA KANZ of all things!
Not denying that Gauss is highly useful in theory. They can potentially kill MC and any sort of vehicle, even Super Heavies. It just isn't something to bank on too hard.
Killa Kanz are not the ideal target for Gauss. Each HP of a Land Raider is much more valuable.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider a single S6 Init 1 attack a meaningful threat to any MC. Yeah, they do a number on AV 10 rear armor, but that is also incredibly situational.
Initially we'll be wanting furious charge I think, but in subsequent rounds when we're Strength 4 again then it's something at least if it's happens to be a T8 Wraithknight or Daemon Prince with Iron Arm.
Furious charge is actually a very weak chapter tactic in practice. I'm still running a mostly shooting list.
It rocks if you can make it into close combat. I think your problem is getting into close combat to begin with.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
I'm not saying Kanz are the ideal target. But it just goes to show how inefficient the Gauss is when being applied to a game. It's a nice feature, but you can't expect it to be reliable and win you games. And when Kanz were the only really available target, because I threw them in first to keep the Dreads and Morkanaught back to work on different targets. He didn't want those Kanz in combat. Despite their low WS, no one wants S7 klaws ripping their ranks apart.
Gauss is good, just not as nuts as everyone might think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 21:50:32
No, they just shoot down fliers with twinlinked serpent shields. One guy has a cheat card with the averages to glance out all the common fliers with Wave Serpents.
It's a temporary effect, and you don't get it if you get assaulted. Most players know to spoiling assault BA by now.
Hence we are the only army to get a formation which we can assault from when entering from reserve. It may be a temporary effect, but it obviously works in tangent with taking the other weapons in our sqauds (Powerfists, Power Weapons, etc, etc). It also works in tangent with the other upgrades we get, i.e. WS5 thanks to the priest, etc.
That formation is so expensive though. And I hate tac squads and am lukewarm towards Stormravens. I don't like our chances vs wraiths. I'll tarpit with DC and hope.
Don't charge wraiths with what I have posted. Wraiths can't hurt flyers anyway so sod them. The flyers can take care of them after the rest of the stuff is sorted. Plus imagine the look on your opponents face when you take out their Spyders. Say goodbye to your 4++ on your wraiths.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: No, they just shoot down fliers with twinlinked serpent shields. One guy has a cheat card with the averages to glance out all the common fliers with Wave Serpents.
Cheat Card? Do you mean a card that lists the odds to take out different flyers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 21:52:46
Martel732 wrote: Yes, that kind of card. It's not really cheating. Just quick reference.
I suppose you can work it out yourself to see what the chances are and to work out if it's going to work for you. For a Wave Serpent we're talking about 6's to hit and then 6's to glance with the lasers/shurikan weapons and then 5's to glance and 6's to penetrate with the serpent shield. I know it's twin linked which helps a bit but the weapons are also poor AP so they are certainly not blowing you out the sky.
I'm not worried about the Eldar shooting down three Stormravens. I'm just concerned they will table all my land units. The Wave Serpents are quite deadly against things like Stormtalons, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 22:12:12
BoomWolf wrote: Are we seriusly 19 pages in and yet failed to find even a dedicated counter, let alone a TAC worthy answer?
Not that surprising. Reminds me of a thread at warseer back in the 4th ed about how to counter jetbike council. Like a hundred pages, all the "tactics" were either points inefficient, did simply not work or were outright illegal. In the end it became clear that the only counter to jetbike council was another jetbike council.^^
That being said, setting up a meatshield with hammernators with ministorum priests could work. With the priests battle hymns, the unit can reroll armour and inv. saves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 22:16:32
Martel732 wrote: I'm not worried about the Eldar shooting down three Stormravens. I'm just concerned they will table all my land units. The Wave Serpents are quite deadly against things like Stormtalons, though.
The Stormravens will pull their weight though. TL Weapon on the top, hull mounted weapon, 4 Stormstrike Missiles and Hurricane Bolters and being able to fire 5 weapons at the same target. Screw Wave Serpents when you have those 6 Missile shots that we were talking about in the other thread.
You get one volley of 6 ST 8 shots and then you are done, though. The target will almost assuredly jink that turn, so you clear a whole whopping single HP. The WS won't have to jink in subsequent turns, because you are down to a Typhoon launcher and an assault cannon. Frankly, Stormravens are way more dangerous to Wraithknights.
Martel732 wrote: You get one volley of 6 ST 8 shots and then you are done, though. The target will almost assuredly jink that turn, so you clear a whole whopping single HP. The WS won't have to jink in subsequent turns, because you are down to a Typhoon launcher and an assault cannon. Frankly, Stormravens are way more dangerous to Wraithknights.
The other weapons are just as good though.
If I were playing against Wave Serpents then I would be charging them the turn my DC Dread and DC get in. They certainly don't survive close combat against them.
Fair enough, your units may be shot in return afterwards, but then you have 3 Stormravens to fire with and you now have tactical Squads to take care of those troops inside those transports. Dire Avengers and Guardians really don't like flamer templates.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/10 22:29:35
You can kill two wave serpents with that list. Since you are having to assault the WS to kill them, there is no guarantee you'll ever get your flamer templates off against battle focus Eldar units. The other WS will fly away, under the Ravens. If the list also has Warp Spiders, you might have to prioritize them over the WS. I just don't know.
Martel732 wrote: You can kill two wave serpents with that list. Since you are having to assault the WS to kill them, there is no guarantee you'll ever get your flamer templates off against battle focus Eldar units. The other WS will fly away, under the Ravens. If the list also has Warp Spiders, you might have to prioritize them over the WS. I just don't know.
The flamer units will be getting dropped off by the ravens. You could even use the skies of fury rule but then again it is a bit risky to do that but evaluate your options at the time before deciding. The WS may well fly away but the Stormravens will soon catch them up I think since they are pretty fast also.
Other options include Melta Squads on the rear armour of those Wave Serpents. So you don't need to stick to the Death Company in my list if you don't want to. You may want to melta them with assault squads or command squads instead. The irony being that afterwards when you've shot your melta guns you can charge afterwards. Hopefully into a squad that was hiding in the transport.
Seriously, just think it over. I'm going to give it a good go. I am hopeful that this formation will be great.
Martel732 wrote: It could work for sure. I'm also worried about lists that don't care if tac marines assault them. Orks, Nids, SW, etc.
For Orks and Nids you have flamers to fry them anyway. At the end of the day you need to try and judge your meta. Coming up with a list to take on everyone is just too darn impossible in any respect. I'm sure even Eldar and Tau fall down somewhere and if they don't then make them. Cause they won't change their lists until they start losing.
