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Requizen wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Dunno what you'd do about fliers.

Necron's only defense to fliers are either flyers of our own or Sentry Pylons from Forgeworld.

Or tomb blades on a quad gun. Ignores cover transfers to the quad gun since the ability is on the tomb blade itself, not on one of it's weapons. no jink for the flyer = 1 less flyer.

I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?

 Zuul wrote:
I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?

He's better. His Staff no longer sucks since it has multiple uses, he's durable, doesn't try to pretend to be a melee character (new Staff + Gauntlet Of Fire makes for a decent shooting character and doesn't have rules to encourage otherwise) and his Lightning thing, while one use only at lower strength, has a better chance of actually hitting things. Much better than the previous incarnation for sure.

 MLKTH wrote:

 MLKTH wrote:
I'm actually liking that combination of Cult + Judicator.

Here's my take on how to fill it up to 1850:

Overlord w/ Warscythe
5 Immortals
10 Warriors w/ Ark
10 Warriors w/ Ark
5 Blades w/ Beamers, Nebuloscopes, Shieldvanes

Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe
2 Destroyers & 1 Heavy Destroyer
2 Destroyers & 1 Heavy Destroyer
2 Destroyers & 1 Heavy Destroyer
3 Heavy Destroyers

Stalker w/ Heat Ray
5 Praetorians w/ Rods
5 Praetorians w/ Rods

It's very much the polar opposite of the last codex lists that had the lack of AP2 as one of their main weaknesses. No idea if it works, but I'll definitely try it out when I have time to repaint all the destroyers I have from ye olden days, and get some preatorians.

Actually, I might be tempted to switch one of the arks to 8 more warriors, because the destroyer lord doesn't really have anywhere to go in this list and his PE would really benefit a big unit of warriors. I'd usually put the overlord there as well in that case. I usually prefer 10 warriors in an ark to 18 on foot, but maybe not here.

He can actually go with the Praetorians and is actually good with them especially if they have Rod of the Covenant, reroll 1s to hit, Reroll 1s to wound. Or he can go with the Praetorians that have the Particle Casters.

The only thing I find out of place is the 5 Immortals, probably best to just keep in reserve. I mean if you dropped anything it would be to drop a Ghost Ark to stick them in a Nightscythe, you'd have to figure something out to make up the points though.

I think it's a good list.It has a 2 5 man T5 CC squads with 3+ 4++ , not bad.

I think the prevailing dominant lists will be predominantly T5 lists.


Cryptek

Elite
Triarch Stalker

Troops
5 Immortals

5 Immortals

Fast Attack
10 Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscopes, Shieldvanes, Particle Beamers
3 Tomb Blades w/ NebuloScopes , Shield Vane
6 Wraiths
H. Support
2 H. Destroyers

Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord w/ Phylactery , Phase Shifter, Warscythe

3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
2 H. Destroyers

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun 18??

Sit back with a Quad Gun that ignores cover and blasts flyers out of the sky, along with 4 Las Cannon Shots that never miss and 2 ST8 AP2 shots. Good Luck shooting at the Tomb Blades, the Cryptek gives them +1 RP.

 Zuul wrote:
I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?

Eh, he's better now imo. He still makes it Night Fight turn 1, though he can't extend it. His lighting zappy thing is lower strength/AP, and can only be used once in a 48" bubble rather than board-wide, but is more reliable since it "hits" on 5s and you can decide when it goes off. His Staff is now a super duper Staff of Light , which is good because the old one sucked. He gained IWND and his set Warlord Trait is Reserve Manipulation (always great). Plus, his ability to help Flayed Ones DS effectively is better now that Flayed Ones don't suck.

Question on formation bonuses. If a unit in my formation gets wiped, does the remainder of the formation retain as long as it isnt reliant on the unit that was destroyed? For example, Reclamation Legion, if i started with only 1 tomb blade unit(which is the min) and it gets destroyed, do i still have the 'enhanced reanimation protocols' (reroll RP rolls of 1 for the OL and any unit from the formation within 12" of the OL) or do i lose it?

Yes you wouldn't lose any of the formation bonuses, unless those bonuses were model specific ( The Overlord's 12" rule for example). So if the Overlord died then that formation bonus would be lost because he's no longer there to provide it.

 Zuul wrote:
I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?

It is falling, but only once per game now.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah I just mean in total volume of fire your not really losing shots that badly. Also, with the Decurion formation the Warriors do have Relentless , I have no idea why you would charge someone with Necrons but if it was 1 or 2 guys I don't see why not.

You would charge someone with Necrons because they're rlikely to win against non-dedicated assault units.

Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless. I just have no desire to do the math. Also it's actually not a terrible tactic, Ghost Arks are open topped they can move , Warriors Get out and fire then charge.

If there were any possible way to get a Character with Warriors in a Ark then I would say "YES!", but since there is no way to do it with out losing models. It's a big no.

Ugh, if only the Ghost Ark was 12 models.

As fun as the new Destroyers are, I'm not seeing how they're worth it (for now).

A full Destroyer Cult runs about the same price as a Tau Firebase (~600pts)

We're getting about 20 shots to their 48, plus 3 anti-tank shots each.
We win vs. marines (3+, no cover or invul), 12 to 10. In any other case, Tau wins.
We gain:
-mobility (6" + JSJ vs Stand Still)
-A Destroyer Lord to hang out with Wraiths
-Marginally better AT

We lose:
-Volume of fire
-Effectiveness vs everyone except naked marines
-6-12" range
-Tank Hunter
-2+ saves
-Wierd Zahndrek combo

Someone prove to me that Destroyers are worth it... I really wish they were, but...

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless. I just have no desire to do the math.

They should be able to fairly well kick the crap out of any equivalently priced MEQ squad without power weapons.

caelim wrote:
As fun as the new Destroyers are, I'm not seeing how they're worth it (for now).

A full Destroyer Cult runs about the same price as a Tau Firebase (~600pts)

We're getting about 20 shots to their 48, plus 3 anti-tank shots each.
We win vs. marines (3+, no cover or invul), 12 to 10. In any other case, Tau wins.
We gain:
-mobility (6" + JSJ vs Stand Still)
-A Destroyer Lord to hang out with Wraiths
-Marginally better AT

We lose:
-Volume of fire
-Effectiveness vs everyone except naked marines
-6-12" range
-Tank Hunter
-2+ saves
-Wierd Zahndrek combo

Someone prove to me that Destroyers are worth it... I really wish they were, but...

The whole formation comes with Shred and Tank Hunter. If taken with a Decurion they all have 4+ Invunerables against anything that isn't ST10 because their T5 2W models. That's not counting the ability to get cover saves and still roll their RP.

Also, AP3 is great against specific models.

This is why :

Extermination Protocols: All units in this Formation re-roll failed To Wound rolls and Armour Penetration rolls in the Shooting phase.

caelim wrote:
As fun as the new Destroyers are, I'm not seeing how they're worth it (for now).

A full Destroyer Cult runs about the same price as a Tau Firebase (~600pts)

We're getting about 20 shots to their 48, plus 3 anti-tank shots each.
We win vs. marines (3+, no cover or invul), 12 to 10. In any other case, Tau wins.
We gain:
-mobility (6" + JSJ vs Stand Still)
-A Destroyer Lord to hang out with Wraiths
-Marginally better AT

We lose:
-Volume of fire
-Effectiveness vs everyone except naked marines
-6-12" range
-Tank Hunter
-2+ saves
-Wierd Zahndrek combo

Someone prove to me that Destroyers are worth it... I really wish they were, but...

Compared to Broadsides, T5 W2 3+/5+++ is functionally similar to T4 W2 2+. In fact, better in some cases, in that it's harder to ID and still gets saves against ID. If you put it in the Decurion, the 4+++ makes them statistically more survivable than Broadsides. If you stick the Overlord from the Decurion next to them so they can reroll 1s on RP rolls, they're even tougher.

Higher BS baseline (and with PE(Everything)), able to boost it even better to BS5 rerollable. Mobility, rather than just having to hunker in a corner. And while we're talking similar prices for "naked" versions of each Formation, the Tau start to pay quite a bit for their upgrades. All the Destroyers are paying for is more bodies/shooting.

Additionally, the Destroyers will get whatever bonuses come from being Necrons (Zahndrekh's warlord traits, rerolls, boosts from Stalker, etc), while the Tau are treated completely separately.

Being able to reroll to wound and to hit rolls is a huge advantage. Like just statistically it's huge. You've now got a model that more than 90% of the time hits, and get's to reroll any failed wounds and armour penetration with a Gauss Weapon.

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless.

Almost all of them, I think.

Warriors with Ducalion are Marines +1 except for low Int and cost less. Immortals are comparable to Terminators in durability, and cost much less.

Alcibiades wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless.

Almost all of them, I think.

Warriors with Ducalion are Marines +1 except for low Int and cost less. Immortals are comparable to Terminators in durability, and cost much less.

You're also gonna get the 10 Shots from that sides Gauss Flayer Array as well, so you're looking at 30 Attacks at BS4 ST4 before you go for the charge.

Uh.. math against a full 10 man Tactical Squad with bolters.

Hollismason wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless.

Almost all of them, I think.

Warriors with Ducalion are Marines +1 except for low Int and cost less. Immortals are comparable to Terminators in durability, and cost much less.

You're also gonna get the 10 Shots from that sides Gauss Flayer Array as well, so you're looking at 30 Attacks at BS4 ST4 before you go for the charge.

Uh.. math against a full 10 man Tactical Squad with bolters.

Whoever gets the charge wins, I think.

Eh not really Necrons from the Decurion will pretty much whittle them down, 4+ , then 4+, unless they got a power weapon.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Speaking of tournament level tactics, since adamantium lance is the new hotness i think i have a combo that helps fight it. It involves Zandrekh, a Triarch Stalker, a brick of 20 warriors, and Tau allies! Tau are allies of convenience, so they're still treated as "enemy" units. A buffmander and a unit of missile pod crisis suits offer some good firepower, while sharing their hit and run, tank hunter, etc that they get from the PENchip with zandrekh and his warriors. 40 BS5 tank-hunting gauss shots have a pretty good chance of downing a knight at close range, even with a 4++ reroll save. Add in hit and run from the VRTs the commander has, and they'll only have to suffer 1 round of D-swords and stomps before turning around to rapid fire and do it again.

That is hilarious! I hope tournaments allow this because it's the cheesiest thing I have ever heard lol.

Ok so I just noticed something interesting about monoliths. This goes out to all you crazy dudes who actually plan on running 2 or more of them (you know who you are).

Each monolith's eternity gate allows you to pull a unit from reserves and let it "disembark" from the monolith's gate. You may do this once per turn per monolith. However, it also lets you grab a unit from anywhere on the board and do the same. So, using two monoliths will allow you to have a "bridge" if you will from monolith to monolith. Not technically, but you will be able to summon 1 unit per turn per monolith from anywhere on the board to be somewhere near that monolith. If you then don't want them there (or need them elsewhere) you can bring them to the other monolith on a later turn.

How useful is this? I don't know. If you really want unlimited mobility, just take screamers or eldar jetbikes of any fashion. Or even a veil of darkness. But it's something that monolith players might not have noticed (and I know you guys are out there)

Hollismason wrote:
Eh not really Necrons from the Decurion will pretty much whittle them down, 4+ , then 4+, unless they got a power weapon.

The marines' sole advantage is their higher Int, which means that they can probably disengage from combat if they fail a morale test. That and they can throw a grenade as they charge.

This -- warriors costing less than marines, but being the same or better in almost every way -- makes me uncomfortable. I hope there is something that I am missing. (Maybe it's that Marines can take a sarge, who can take a power weapon).

Even with a Power Weapon the Decurion Formation gives the 4++, that's what makes Flayed Ones so insane.

5 attacks on the charge with a 4+ , 4++ makes them one of the best HtH troops in the game for the cost. They'll tear apart dedicated CC troops especially if they've got a D-Lord with them.

I mean point for point their better than Blood Letters, Daemonettes, Plague Bearers etc.. for 4 points more a model.

Having a 4++ is pretty huge.

RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek.
Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.

3+ armor 67% to save
4+ & 5+++ = 67% to save
4+ & 4+++ = 75% chance to save
2+ armor 84% to save

 adamsouza wrote:
RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek.
Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.

3+ armor 67% to save
4+ & 5+++ = 67% to save
4+ & 4+++ = 75% chance to save
2+ armor 84% to save

That actually increases a bit because the Overlord let's you reroll 1s, but also T5 3+ 4++ is pretty good.

You jumped topic on me there.

Reroll 1's on RP withing 12" of Overlord ?
Increases RP 5+ from 33% to 38%
Increases RP 4+ from 50% to 58%

Reanimation Protocols are awesome, I'm just trying to remind people it's not free to get RP 4+. You are going to have to invest points and models to achieve it, either fielding extra units with the decurion, or by getting Crypteks from a Royal Court.

3+ armor 67% to save
4+ & 5+++ = 67% to save
4+ & 4+++ = 75% chance to save
3+ RP 5+ = 77% chance to save
3+ RP 4+ = 83% chance to save
2+ armor 84% to save

 adamsouza wrote:
RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek.
Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.

Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.

So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?

Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:

Build...........................Marine...Cultists..Termy.....NS.......WS.....AV13.....Landraider.....
9D+3HD....................120%.....50%........58%........15%.....61%.....79%.....400%.....
6D+6HD....................109%.....43%........74%........21%.....76%.....90%.....400%.....
9D+3HD+Stalker.....152%.....62%........72%........15%.....76%.....98%.....500%.....
6D+6HD+Stalker.....135%.....53%........92%........21%.....95%.....112%....500%.....

So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.

Alcibiades wrote:
Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.

I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.

The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.

caelim wrote:
So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?

Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:

Build...........................Marine...Cultists..Termy.....NS.......WS.....AV13.....Landraider.....
9D+3HD....................120%.....50%........58%........15%.....61%.....79%.....400%.....
6D+6HD....................109%.....43%........74%........21%.....76%.....90%.....400%.....
9D+3HD+Stalker.....152%.....62%........72%........15%.....76%.....98%.....500%.....
6D+6HD+Stalker.....135%.....53%........92%........21%.....95%.....112%....500%.....

So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.

Wow, we're not on par shooting with Tau? Who woulda thunk?

I do consider the durability and mobility worth most of that shooting. We're Necrons, our draw isn't our fire output (as good as it is), it's the fact that we're the toughest buggers in the game, codex for codex. So the fact that point for point we're even that close to Tau, the army that gives up toughness and mobility in favor of shooting, is pretty darn good.

And honestly, all the math shows to me is what I was already assuming - the real winners at the moment are Heavy Destroyers. Regular destroyers are great, but Heavies jut provide a damage output that few other things in out book can even come close to providing.