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 adamsouza wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.

I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.

The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.

Ah OK. I was worried about warriors being better than marines.

 adamsouza wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.

I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.

The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.

Again, it comes down to this: were you going to use Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades in your list anyway? If yes, the Decurion is not tax. It's just a straight bonus to what you already have.

If you weren't going to use them, then yes, it feels like tax. But you don't have to use it, Decurion, much like all Formations and FOCs, reward you for not playing what you want, but what GW thinks is thematic. Honestly, even with a regular FOC, you see people complaining about "Troop tax", because it's points spent on things that you don't want to spend them on.

 adamsouza wrote:
RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek.
Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.

Although you didn't mention it expressly, impliedly you consider the minimum requirements of a Decurion a tax.

It's important to remember when discussing the "tax" involved in taking the Decurion that the regular CAD also requires 2 troops and an Overlord in order to be taken.

So the Decurion only really requires an extra troops choice (a bit like the Mephrit Dynasty detachment) and a unit of tomb blades, but blades are so effective now you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't take them.

When added together, the minimum requirements for the Decurion equal 399pts (excluding the Overlord, which you'd be taking anyway) as opposed to the CAD's minimum of 170pts. That's only a difference of 229pts.

Furthermore, we use the term "tax" to refer to restrictions placed upon us that we need to pay for before accessing other things. The assumption being that the "tax" models themselves do little to contribute to the effectiveness of the force.

It is this assumption that I believe is chiefly incorrect. Although it is a different system, I believe a comparison to Vampire Counts is apt here.

VC are required to take 25% of their army as Core - unfortunately, their Core choices (apart from Dire Wolves) are not effective at anything except dying in droves and possibly tying up enemies. You cannot use them to pin enemy units in place, as they're so lacklustre in combat that they'd bleed too much combat res even with help, nor does Fantasy have an objective system that would allow them to capture points. They are a perfect example of a tax - a penalty that needs to be paid in order to access better (read: more useful) units, but have little to no value in the army in and of themselves.

Compare them to our Decurion "tax" - Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades. All of which can easily contribute to the game either by capturing points, drawing fire from enemy units (and requiring a large amount of firepower to reliably eradicate), or even destroy enemy units with their own firepower.

This would be different if they weren't made significantly more durable by the Decurion's own benefit, but there'd be no point in taking the Decurion if the benefit wasn't in place.

Anyway, TL;DR: Calling the requirements of the Decurion a "tax" is incorrect as the required units can significantly contribute to the game.

 adamsouza wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.

I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.

The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.

That's the whole point though is that if you want to view it as a tax you can but really it's not a Tax considering what the benefit your gaining. You're troops may not be Objective Secured. Otherwise your still getting what you have to purchase which Warriors w/ the Decurion are insanely worthwhile for their points.

It's whether you look at it as a Tax , which I really don't you're gonna wanna take a Overlord most of the time, and it can be a "barebones" Command Barge.

You're going to want to take some troops, all of which can have a Nightscythes and really why wouldn't you want a core block of cheap efficient troops.

As for Flayed Ones, their straight up 13 point Daemons , excepting versus ST8 or above.

13 PPM for 4+, 4++ , 5 Attacks on the charge and shred is probably one of the best costed CC units in the game, especially with Shred. Sure do they have weakness? Yes, AV, but that's about it.

They can outflank, they can infiltrate, deep strike, cause fear. LD10 that's amazing for 13ppm.

Someone did the math and put them against stuff of equal points and they just completely trash them even not getting the charge.

10 Models if they do get the charge get 50 attacks.

They're crazy good and cheap.

Again, it comes down to this: were you going to use Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades in your list anyway? If yes, the Decurion is not tax.

In the 2000 point list I run regularly, there are no Immortals or Tomb Blades.
In the 5000+ points of Necrons I own, I haven't fielded Immortals since they were old school metal, and Tomb Blades ever.

I'm not arguing the benefits of the Decurion. The 7E codex has me investing in a couple boxes of both Immortals and Tomb Blades, but fitting them into my army lists is a consideration. To get them into my lists, I need to remove units I would use otherwise.

I purposely did not use the term tax. Tax implies uselessness. I don't think Immortals and Tomb Blades are useless, but I didn't care for them enough to field them. To use the Decurion costs you opportunities to field other units, and it is up to you to decide if it is worth it.

Also, let's be honest here. Tomb Blades are not iconic, didn't sell well, and were never particularly popular other than last minute objective grabbers. Their inclusion in the Decurion is just evil marketing genius.

 adamsouza wrote:

Again, it comes down to this: were you going to use Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades in your list anyway? If yes, the Decurion is not tax.

In the 2000 point list I run regularly, there are no Immortals or Tomb Blades.
In the 5000+ points of Necrons I own, I haven't fielded Immortals since they were old school metal, and Tomb Blades ever.

I'm not arguing the benefits of the Decurion. The 7E codex has me investing in a couple boxes of both Immortals and Tomb Blades, but fitting them into my army lists is a consideration. To get them into my lists, I need to remove units I would use otherwise.

I purposely did not use the term tax. Tax implies uselessness. I don't think Immortals and Tomb Blades are useless, but I didn't care for them enough to field them. To use the Decurion costs you opportunities to field other units, and it is up to you to decide if it is worth it.

Also, let's be honest here. Tomb Blades are not iconic, didn't sell well, and were never particularly popular other than last minute objective grabbers. Their inclusion in the Decurion is just evil marketing genius.

Well, of course you haven't run Tomb blades before... they sucked back then

Give em a shot now, you will be impressed!

Yeah I got some small point games in them and the thing is most stuff that is Ignore Cover is just not AP3 or 2 , there are a flamers of course that do some damage at AP3, but their not ST10 which is needed to negate their 4+ save in the Decurion Detachment.

Against Weapons that would deny the cover save from Jink , your probably going to get the 3+ and against weapons that double the toughness ST10 AP2 etc.. you'll probably be getting the cover save.

They go great with a Barge Lord from the Decurion, giving Rerolls of 1s with in 12 , which ups their durability even more.

I'm more impressed with Tomb Blades than Wraiths honestly.

Can a Destroyer Lord join a group of Flayed Ones in an Imothek list and still keep the reroll to deep strike scatter ability/?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, do you have to swap weapons for any of the relics? Or can you take, say, a Warscythe and the Solar Staff?

caelim wrote:
So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?

Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:

Build...........................Marine...Cultists..Termy.....NS.......WS.....AV13.....Landraider.....
9D+3HD....................120%.....50%........58%........15%.....61%.....79%.....400%.....
6D+6HD....................109%.....43%........74%........21%.....76%.....90%.....400%.....
9D+3HD+Stalker.....152%.....62%........72%........15%.....76%.....98%.....500%.....
6D+6HD+Stalker.....135%.....53%........92%........21%.....95%.....112%....500%.....

So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.

Impressive maths man! geez. Did you include the re-rolls for the destroyers in that? It's interesting that the damage output for 6D and 6HD seems to be the most optimal load out. IMO the stalker is too many points for not much benefit..

bodazoka wrote:

caelim wrote:
So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?

Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:

Build...........................Marine...Cultists..Termy.....NS.......WS.....AV13.....Landraider.....
9D+3HD....................120%.....50%........58%........15%.....61%.....79%.....400%.....
6D+6HD....................109%.....43%........74%........21%.....76%.....90%.....400%.....
9D+3HD+Stalker.....152%.....62%........72%........15%.....76%.....98%.....500%.....
6D+6HD+Stalker.....135%.....53%........92%........21%.....95%.....112%....500%.....

So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.

Impressive maths man! geez. Did you include the re-rolls for the destroyers in that? It's interesting that the damage output for 6D and 6HD seems to be the most optimal load out. IMO the stalker is too many points for not much benefit..

Compare them heads up, though. The HDs have superior maneuverability and range, and a perfect weapon for kill Riptides and Missilesides. Missilsides might be more versatile, but HDs stand a very good chance of killing them in a straight up fight.


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a good point caelim alludes to, though, is you really have to find the right spot for that Dlord for the Destroyer formation to really shine. I'm playing around with the idea of pairing him with both Flayed Ones, as well as something like a Warrior brick, oddly enough. Backed by a Stalker 20 Rapid fire Gauss Flayers with PE turns into some pretty mean damage. Grab a Solar Staff and Res Orb for good measure.

The rest of the formation is really solid, though, particularly the 6HD variety.

I threw that together with a Destroyer CAD to the tune of 18 HDs and 2 Tomb Stalkers in a concept list. That's, just, a relentless alpha strike against quite a few lists. With the right terrain it could be absolutely brutal.

Firebase is going to kill 4 Destroyers per turn: 1 from Smart, 1.67 from HYMP, and 1.46 from Ion.

Destroyers are pathetic vs. Broadsides, and even worse against Riptides. Most of the Gauss Cannon's "effectiveness" comes from its AP, so it drops like a rock vs. 2+ armour.

9+3 gets you 2 dead Broadsides: 0.88 from Destroyers, 1.13 from Heavies.
6+6 gets you almost 3 dead Broadsides: 0.6 Destroyers, 2.3 Heavies
Adding a Stalker gets you +0.5 kills, plus whatever the Stalker can throw out.
[Preferred Enemy and Formation benefits included here, and preceeding mathhammer]

It's actually worth it to ditch the Formation here, and just take a whole pile of Heavy Destroyers:
12 Heavy Destroyers get you 4.5 dead Broadsides, and is the only scenario in your favour - you're matching range, you've got the maneuverability to strike first, and move back to force them to move up to engage you (forcing snapfiring)... Of course, 12 H.Destroyers sets you back 3 Heavy AND 3 Fast attack slots - you weren't planning on bringing anything else, were you?

Destroyers are dead weight vs. 2+ armour. Heavy Destroyers don't have the volume of fire to handle Hordes, or the accuracy to handle aircraft. If you're fighting hordes of footslogging Marines, Destroyers are nice. If you need a bunch of mobile Lascannons, there are worse options than Heavy Destroyers.

The problem with specialization like this is - If I'm not facing footslogging Marines / 2+ Elites or AV14, I'm not getting good value. The beauty of the Firebase formation is that it does well against any target (and there's no downside to Tau allies). A lot of the value of my Destroyers is determined by my opponent's army build, which means they're not a great TAC choice.

Now, the mobility thing is a big deal. I'm skeptical of their use as centrepiece units (stand and shoot behind a stalker with a bajillion kinda useful synergies) for the above reasons. But a handful of Lascannons jumping out from behind walls... Could be playable? I'll have to do some playtesting on that one.

Firebase is going to kill 4 Destroyers per turn: 1 from Smart, 1.67 from HYMP, and 1.46 from Ion.

The SMS and HYMP will never be in range or LOS. Even if they run at them, they'll be dead before they shoot.

Destroyers are dead weight vs. 2+ armour. Heavy Destroyers don't have the volume of fire to handle Hordes, or the accuracy to handle aircraft. If you're fighting hordes of footslogging Marines, Destroyers are nice. If you need a bunch of mobile Lascannons, there are worse options than Heavy Destroyers.

Some good points, here, but I think there are definitely ways to shore up these deficiencies. Necrons can get the anti horde from their Stalkers, which pair nicely with the HDs anyway. Fliers could be a little annoying against a Destroyer Wing, although for the large part you can use JSJ to severely limit their firing options.

Again, it largely comes down to terrain. With the right terrain, the list would crush most. Even against hordes, you could easily ratchet up to 50 bases per turn.


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What do ya'll think of this as a base unit in a normal CAD

Cryptek + Solar Staff + Chrono + RO

10 Immortals (Gauss)

Night Scythe

Not including the NS, you end up paying around 25 points per wound for T4 3+/5++ RP 4+ wounds with a turn of RP rerolls and a turn of pseudo invisisi. Pretty solid (you are effectively getting TH/SS termie wounds here, at least against shooting, for a bargain). The unit dishes out enough S 6 and Gauss shots to seriously threaten AV 12 or lower, at least within 12". Invasion beam these guys down in the middle of a shoot first opponent and they'll cause some headaches, at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been really thinking about an Imo Decurion list, mostly to spam 4+ RP re-roll to scatter Flayed Ones. One restricting factor, though, is you have to bring the RC to bring Imo, so your bare bones tax is 790 for the RC plus the Reclamation League, and that's zero goodies on your Olord/Lord or Cryptek.

Still, once you get passed they rather huge starting investment, you can get like, I don't know, 9 groups of 5 super Flayed Ones for 585.

That leaves you a detachment slot and 625 points or so to play around with. You can drop the FOs by a group or two and slot in the Destroyer Wing. The Heavy D's complement the FOs rather well, actually (being very strong against the things the FOs can't touch).

Was also playing around with the idea of combining it with a Canoptek formation.

Anyway, just kind of spit balling. That's a ton of Flayed Ones, though. Chop chop chop.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Firebase is going to kill 4 Destroyers per turn: 1 from Smart, 1.67 from HYMP, and 1.46 from Ion.

The SMS and HYMP will never be in range or LOS. Even if they run at them, they'll be dead before they shoot..

Good point this. So practically we are comparing the HD's v the Ion if both are shooting at each other.

Going of what you guys have both put out there I think the firebase is comparable to the destroyer cult however you remove some of the shooting of the base for manoeuvrability and staying power.

quick question guys,
is it possible to only take the Destroyer cult? so an army full of destroyers, and for Necrons which starter kit do you all recommend?

Pertruabo wrote:
quick question guys,
is it possible to only take the Destroyer cult? so an army full of destroyers, and for Necrons which starter kit do you all recommend?

I've been wondering the same, thing, but I don't think its possible outside of an Unbound list. For a CAD, I don't think the Destroyer Cult can fill your HQ slot, and it certainly cant fill your Troop slot requirements. In an Unbound list, there is no problem taking all Destroyer Cult(s)


At this point, if I was starting from scratch, I'd say the Necron Battleforce + a CCB box is still the best starter, but If I could swing the expense, I'd be thinking about the "Necron Battleforce" + "The Tomb Awakened" box instead. Of course, noneof these will get you your Destroyers!

A list made entirely out of formations isn't unbound. Though that said, since you lack objective secured anyhow, the only thing you lose for supplementing a formation army with a few unbound units... Is bound status.

If I were doing a Destroyer Cult army, and I probably will once I get a few more Destroyers, I'd probably supplement with a close combat formation of some sort to give the Destroyer Lord a unit to escort. Judicator Batallion and Canoptek Harvest have decent synergy for this.

bodazoka wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Speaking of tournament level tactics, since adamantium lance is the new hotness i think i have a combo that helps fight it. It involves Zandrekh, a Triarch Stalker, a brick of 20 warriors, and Tau allies! Tau are allies of convenience, so they're still treated as "enemy" units. A buffmander and a unit of missile pod crisis suits offer some good firepower, while sharing their hit and run, tank hunter, etc that they get from the PENchip with zandrekh and his warriors. 40 BS5 tank-hunting gauss shots have a pretty good chance of downing a knight at close range, even with a 4++ reroll save. Add in hit and run from the VRTs the commander has, and they'll only have to suffer 1 round of D-swords and stomps before turning around to rapid fire and do it again.

That is hilarious! I hope tournaments allow this because it's the cheesiest thing I have ever heard lol.

I'll tell you what works even better against the lance. A Ghazgull Bullyboy formation. I ran one of those with meganobs in trukks with my crons and the nobs wiped the lance off the table in turn two. Granted I was left with only one units of nobs by the end thanks to three exploding knights but still it got the job done.

changemod wrote:
A list made entirely out of formations isn't unbound.

Sorry, was not aware of this. I didn't know you could build an army entirely out of formations, and not be Unbound. I guess you just wouldn't be taking a CAD, and one of the formations would be your Primary Detatchment???

So I'm playing a 1k game vs nids in a few weeks. Never played them before. What should I be thinking? Pretty sure enemy is going to play unbound.

Ffyllotek wrote:
So I'm playing a 1k game vs nids in a few weeks. Never played them before. What should I be thinking? Pretty sure enemy is going to play unbound.

Do you know what you're opponent will bring.

If not, FMCs are highly popular, so air support would be good.

Also, keep in mind most FMCs and MCs will have 3+ armor saves, so I'd recommend bringing some AP3 or better. Detroyers seem to me like they'd be good against Nid MCs.

If you know you're opponent is bringing Tyrnanocytes (Nid drop-pods), Deathmarks are worth considering as Ethereal Interceptor is a now pretty nice counter against deep-striking units.

So ghost arks weapons are now salvo. The vehicle are relentless. Trying to figure out a time when they wont shoot the full 10 shots?

 Tomb King wrote:
So ghost arks weapons are now salvo. The vehicle are relentless. Trying to figure out a time when they wont shoot the full 10 shots?

They always shoot 10 shots. Just like Centurions always shoot 5 from their grav cannons.

 Tomb King wrote:
So ghost arks weapons are now salvo. The vehicle are relentless. Trying to figure out a time when they wont shoot the full 10 shots?

They always shoot 10. There's a thread on this in YMDC: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/634331.page

 jasper76 wrote:

changemod wrote:
A list made entirely out of formations isn't unbound.

Sorry, was not aware of this. I didn't know you could build an army entirely out of formations, and not be Unbound. I guess you just wouldn't be taking a CAD, and one of the formations would be your Primary Detatchment???

You can build battle-forged armies out of any number of legal detachments.

The ObjSec rule only applies to CAD detachments. So using non-CAD detachments you won't get this command benefit, but you will get the command benefits from the detachments' formation rules.

It is perfectly legal to run 3 destroyer cults as your army, as long as you obey the restricitons. You'd only get the destroyer cult benefits, though.

As soon as you add anything that's not a detachment (for instance, you add a triach stalker model to three destoyer cult detachments) the entire army becomes unbound and no one receives any command benefits what so ever. Models still benefits from the units special rules (so +1 bs etc for being near the stalker).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
So I'm playing a 1k game vs nids in a few weeks. Never played them before. What should I be thinking? Pretty sure enemy is going to play unbound.

Do you know what you're opponent will bring.

If not, FMCs are highly popular, so air support would be good.

Also, keep in mind most FMCs and MCs will have 3+ armor saves, so I'd recommend bringing some AP3 or better. Detroyers seem to me like they'd be good against Nid MCs.

If you know you're opponent is bringing Tyrnanocytes (Nid drop-pods), Deathmarks are worth considering as Ethereal Interceptor is a now pretty nice counter against deep-striking units.

Nope, no idea and he won't tell me.

I was thinking a CAD with a decurion canotek detachment. I've three fliers I could use, but that seems a lot at 1k.

Yeah...1000 points makes it hard for me to guess what he would bring.

The most popular HQ is a Flyrant FMC....and people often bring more than 1, which is why I recommended air support.

But I almost feel like I should back off. If I give you that advice, and your buddy doesnt play Flyrants at all, then I just gave you horrible advice.

In any case, almost all Nid MCs have 3+ AS. I wouldn't see why anyone would not have a bunch of MCs in an Unbound Nid list, because the Horde route would lose all objective secured if it were Unbound. So I think its still worthwhile to bring AP3 or better to deal with MCs.

 jasper76 wrote:
Yeah...1000 points makes it hard for me to guess what he would bring.

The most popular HQ is a Flyrant FMC....and people often bring more than 1, which is why I recommended air support.

But I almost feel like I should back off. If I give you that advice, and your buddy doesnt play Flyrants at all, then I just gave you horrible advice.

In any case, almost all Nid MCs have 3+ AS. I wouldn't see why anyone would not have a bunch of MCs in an Unbound Nid list, because the Horde route would lose all objective secured if it were Unbound. So I think its still worthwhile to bring AP3 or better to deal with MCs.

No, please, advise away I know nothing about nids apart from a game I saw once, a turkey shoot between well prepared guard and a poor nid battle plan.

Wondering to give the decurion a try at all now, as I don't have enough destroyers for a cult, and squeezing in an AD and decurion for 1k could be tight.

The worst scenario is 4 Flyrants.

My advice is get the toughest thing possible and win by controlling the objectives.

In that case, let me put it this way. As a Tyranid 'NidZilla' player, nothing makes my stomach sink worse then playing against a bunch of AP2-3, and a bunch of AA.

AA, because I, like most everyone else, brings at least 1 FMC (as my Warlord). Mass AP2-3 because it basically turns my MCs into Guardsmen with lots of wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be helpful for me to see what you have to work with. I don't know if that kind of thing is frowned upon on the Tactica boards.

Bring as much Destroyers as you can.

If you're expecting Flyrants, AV13 deals with them quite well. They can only do damage to the rear of our vehicles, and it's very easy to give the RA a cover save by positioning or just having tall models there. Additionally, Flyrants can't hurt Monoliths or our Superheavies at all.

Despite not getting the extra Tesla shots on snapshots, ABarges and Obelisks still shoot lots of S7 shots, twin linked in the ABarge's case. That's still not bad Anti-Air. Plus, the Obelisk really makes a big zone where Flyrants might be hesitant to move.