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Requizen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Requizen wrote:

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

And a Warscythe is any better? 20 points, for nothing in the shooting phase, so you want him to charge you? You'll possibly just outright die to stomps, and you'd have 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s, and he still has the same saves as he did against the Staff of Light. By all means, if that's your preference, go for it. I'll gladly sit over here and watch that go down.

For 10 points more, you can get Voidreaper which has Master Crafted and Fleshbane. That's not killing a Wraithknight by itself, but if you chipped off a few wounds via Deathmarks and HfH, it might be enough to finish it off.

Oh, absolutely. I love the Voidreaper, I almost always take it. And it would do a good deal of damage to a Wraithknight, but it's 30 extra points that you might not have. Plus, killing him in shooting is a little bit safer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

Aaaaaah, Idk why but him rerolling to wound, due to destroyer cult, didn't even register to me. That's not bad then. I can see why now.

Yeah, both options will certainly do damage, especially the Voidreaper, but if I'm DSing the D-lord with Deathmarks, I'd rather just kill the Wraithknight in shooting to save myself the risk of CC.

Assuming a D-lord from the destroyer cult, DS-ing with Dmarks.
Assuming Sol (i'd probably give him SoL and Conflagrator, better intercepting)
6 wounds pre-FNP from Dmarks

D-lord.
5/6x(5/6) chance to fail a wound. 25/36
1/6 + 1/18 chance of missing.
so,
14/18x(11/36) = 0.23 Ap3 wounds per shot.
~0.69 AP3 wounds. (+6) Pre FNP.
This 290 pt squad will nearly kill a WK the turn it arrives, With FNP you just need to put 2.3 wounds on the WK to kill it after.

Downside. T2 at earliest,
Upside, 10 3+/4+++ Dmarks and a D-lord in backfield to be dealt with.

Also, if you include this, and you aren't facing a WK, you have an amazing interception for any enemy alpha strike (that isn't a dreadnaught).

I think D-marks are a good include in any list now, especially ones you are worried about WKs/WG/Drop pod melta.

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

Its like two of the most heated rules debates just met and are having a baby!
Deep strike is mentioned as "also known as deep strike reserve". However I could easily see this as a RAI, and not allow it as well.

As for the other question about HfH vs sniper, huge rules debate about it right now. Eldar players will say that the gun is a sniper weapon, and sniper weapons only wound on 6. Necron players will say HfH is an independent modifier, like fleshbane. Eldar players will say the attack is made with a sniper weapon. GC wording is "attacks made with a sniper weapon wound on 6". Necron player will say it doesn't matter, its like fleshbane. Rinse and repeat.

So aside from WKs, do deathmarks have a place in Necron lists? I feel like crons are a decent army that can just ignore them. Unless you are going vehicle spam, we don't have many multiwound models without invul saves. We have the spyder, prime target for the D guns, as it is a huge buff to the guns. Went from 1 wound, to most likely a dead spyder. Destroyers are T5, so the old guns insta killed them already, only change now is a 6 prevents cover (I think). Wraiths used to be instant killed by it, but now have a small chance, though 6s is still instant kill. C'tan? yeah, sucks for them, but they are not exactly competitive. The biggest pain is that we no longer get our reanimate, but its 1 or 2 models a turn, per WK. So we are in a similar boat that orks are, ignore the WK and focus on the other stuff.

Orks are fethed because the scatter bikes. Luckily Necrons are far tougher than Orks.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

Its like two of the most heated rules debates just met and are having a baby!
Deep strike is mentioned as "also known as deep strike reserve". However I could easily see this as a RAI, and not allow it as well.

As for the other question about HfH vs sniper, huge rules debate about it right now. Eldar players will say that the gun is a sniper weapon, and sniper weapons only wound on 6. Necron players will say HfH is an independent modifier, like fleshbane. Eldar players will say the attack is made with a sniper weapon. GC wording is "attacks made with a sniper weapon wound on 6". Necron player will say it doesn't matter, its like fleshbane. Rinse and repeat.

So aside from WKs, do deathmarks have a place in Necron lists? I feel like crons are a decent army that can just ignore them. Unless you are going vehicle spam, we don't have many multiwound models without invul saves. We have the spyder, prime target for the D guns, as it is a huge buff to the guns. Went from 1 wound, to most likely a dead spyder. Destroyers are T5, so the old guns insta killed them already, only change now is a 6 prevents cover (I think). Wraiths used to be instant killed by it, but now have a small chance, though 6s is still instant kill. C'tan? yeah, sucks for them, but they are not exactly competitive. The biggest pain is that we no longer get our reanimate, but its 1 or 2 models a turn, per WK. So we are in a similar boat that orks are, ignore the WK and focus on the other stuff.

If an FAQ comes out and says that HFH doesn't affect GCs, I'll lose all hope in this game. That's our main trick for dealing with the ludicrous Wraithknight.

Thanks for the reply, I wasn't aware there was such a heated debate going, although I can see how that would happen with GCs. My main question though is pointed towards vehicles, and how HFH works vs AV. Does it glance on 2+ (and never penetrate), or does it do nothing at all? Trying to work in an inexpensive IK counter to my list because one just destroyed me on the weekend.

You can't wound vehicles.

 Tyran wrote:
You can't wound vehicles.

Ah I just had ignorant equating of Hull Points as wounds in my head (HP is hit points in too many other games). That explains that then.

As for the other question about HfH vs sniper, huge rules debate about it right now. Eldar players will say that the gun is a sniper weapon, and sniper weapons only wound on 6. Necron players will say HfH is an independent modifier, like fleshbane. Eldar players will say the attack is made with a sniper weapon. GC wording is "attacks made with a sniper weapon wound on 6". Necron player will say it doesn't matter, its like fleshbane. Rinse and repeat.

Right but the necrons are right there.
BRB says wound on 6's, Codex on 2's.
Conflict between codex and BRB, codex wins.
Deathmarks wound it on 2's, there is no basis to say otherwise.

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

but dosent page 162 say "you must tell your opponent that this unit will be arriving by deep strike(sometimes called deep strike reserve)"
if "deepstrike reserve" and "arriving by deepstrike" are logicly equivilent, HfH can read "arrives by deepstrike"
also the veil makes you take them off the table, so where are they put between when they are removed to deepstrike and when they actually deepstrike?

Shadowtycho wrote:

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

but dosent page 162 say "you must tell your opponent that this unit will be arriving by deep strike(sometimes called deep strike reserve)"
if "deepstrike reserve" and "arriving by deepstrike" are logicly equivilent, HfH can read "arrives by deepstrike"
also the veil makes you take them off the table, so where are they put between when they are removed to deepstrike and when they actually deepstrike?

Saying that something is Deep Striking at the start of the game is telling them that they will be in "deep strike reserve". They are not the same thing. Summoning Daemons does not put them into Deep Strike reserve and then Deep strike them, they just arrive via the rules for Deep Strike. Same thing with the Veil of Darkness. They are removed from the table and immediately arrive via Deep Strike rules. They're not coming in from Reserves.

AFAIK conjuring specifically mentions counting them as coming from DS reserves, make of that what you will.

harkequin wrote:
AFAIK conjuring specifically mentions counting them as coming from DS reserves, make of that what you will.

Oh, well that still helps the argument. It specifies that they do, in fact, come from Deep Strike Reserve. Veil of Darkness does not.

Hm, to do big units or to do MSU Deathmarks then? A big unit lets you spread the DLord love, but MSU is better for forcing them to split firepower and makes mishaps less devestating.

Requizen wrote:
Hm, to do big units or to do MSU Deathmarks then? A big unit lets you spread the DLord love, but MSU is better for forcing them to split firepower and makes mishaps less devestating.

I like the idea of running MSU, I usually run a unit of 10, but I came into possession of 5 more, so I wanna try running 3 units of 5. Gives you the option for some of them to intercept, and some of them to come in on your turn and do some damage.

OK folks. So where should I go with this?

I bought an army off ebay, pretty good core. I have 5 immortals, 50 warriors, a monolith, a lord, and an overlord.
I'm converting 5 warriors to immortals, and 5 to flayed ones (probably gonna order another warrior pack on ebay for conversion to immortals/FO's)

EDIT: I also have a D-lord

I'm looking for more of a shooty army that's impossible to kill, thinking of going decurion + destroyers, or maybe the judicator battalion. Ghost arks are great, but expensive, given I'll need a couple. Gonna proxy Tomb blades for a bit, I only play with friends so it's no issue.

I guess I'm wondering which way I should branch out next, destroyers, judicator, or wraiths? I mostly play eldar, but I want a take all comers army.

I've considered a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, not competitive, but full as anything, esp. with the god shackle.

Another question-- can someone explain the CCB or annihalation barge to me? for the points, they seem like they won't do very much, 1 gauss cannon and tesla (which no ap makes me not like very much) doesn't seem 135 points, same for the CCB.

Evilbookworm wrote:
OK folks. So where should I go with this?

I bought an army off ebay, pretty good core. I have 5 immortals, 50 warriors, a monolith, a lord, and an overlord.
I'm converting 5 warriors to immortals, and 5 to flayed ones (probably gonna order another warrior pack on ebay for conversion to immortals/FO's)

EDIT: I also have a D-lord

I'm looking for more of a shooty army that's impossible to kill, thinking of going decurion + destroyers, or maybe the judicator battalion. Ghost arks are great, but expensive, given I'll need a couple. Gonna proxy Tomb blades for a bit, I only play with friends so it's no issue.

I guess I'm wondering which way I should branch out next, destroyers, judicator, or wraiths? I mostly play eldar, but I want a take all comers army.

I've considered a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, not competitive, but full as anything, esp. with the god shackle.

Another question-- can someone explain the CCB or annihalation barge to me? for the points, they seem like they won't do very much, 1 gauss cannon and tesla (which no ap makes me not like very much) doesn't seem 135 points, same for the CCB.

Well, yeah if you're going more shooting oriented, Destroyers should probably be your first purchase, though in the Decurion you'll need no less than 9 of them. They're all around useful, and really good with the formation. Judicator Battalion pairs rather well with it also. Essentially BS10 Destroyers is ridiculous, and will kill most things.

The CCB is an HQ choice, essentially an Overlord riding around on a pimp-mobile. You have the underslung weapon (I personally use Gauss, I like the extra AP3), and the Overlord has his various options. You can kit him out with a Warscythe to have him hunt vehicles (He moves 12" in the movement phase, can turbo-boost 18", can reroll charge distance, and gets D6 S6 impact hits), or you can keep him with a Staff of Light and move him around shooting things with 3 AP3 shots, and another 2 from the barge itself. If you're going more infantry and shooting heavy, have him back up your army. He also has a 12" bubble of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear checks, which will help a lot.

The Annihilation Barge is the same kit, but is a Heavy Support "tank" so to speak. The Tesla Destructor is a nice anti light-armor/light-infantry weapon, and the underslung gun is just a bonus. They'd be good in a shooting army. Though, in the Decurion, you'd need a minimum of 2, and a Doomsday Ark. So meh.

Barge Lords are also invulnerable to ST6 shooting and can come with a ST7 AP2 Template weapon, however it's difficult to get them in range.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Evilbookworm wrote:
OK folks. So where should I go with this?

I bought an army off ebay, pretty good core. I have 5 immortals, 50 warriors, a monolith, a lord, and an overlord.
I'm converting 5 warriors to immortals, and 5 to flayed ones (probably gonna order another warrior pack on ebay for conversion to immortals/FO's)

EDIT: I also have a D-lord

I'm looking for more of a shooty army that's impossible to kill, thinking of going decurion + destroyers, or maybe the judicator battalion. Ghost arks are great, but expensive, given I'll need a couple. Gonna proxy Tomb blades for a bit, I only play with friends so it's no issue.

I guess I'm wondering which way I should branch out next, destroyers, judicator, or wraiths? I mostly play eldar, but I want a take all comers army.

I've considered a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, not competitive, but full as anything, esp. with the god shackle.

Another question-- can someone explain the CCB or annihalation barge to me? for the points, they seem like they won't do very much, 1 gauss cannon and tesla (which no ap makes me not like very much) doesn't seem 135 points, same for the CCB.

Well, yeah if you're going more shooting oriented, Destroyers should probably be your first purchase, though in the Decurion you'll need no less than 9 of them. They're all around useful, and really good with the formation. Judicator Battalion pairs rather well with it also. Essentially BS10 Destroyers is ridiculous, and will kill most things.

The CCB is an HQ choice, essentially an Overlord riding around on a pimp-mobile. You have the underslung weapon (I personally use Gauss, I like the extra AP3), and the Overlord has his various options. You can kit him out with a Warscythe to have him hunt vehicles (He moves 12" in the movement phase, can turbo-boost 18", can reroll charge distance, and gets D6 S6 impact hits), or you can keep him with a Staff of Light and move him around shooting things with 3 AP3 shots, and another 2 from the barge itself. If you're going more infantry and shooting heavy, have him back up your army. He also has a 12" bubble of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear checks, which will help a lot.

The Annihilation Barge is the same kit, but is a Heavy Support "tank" so to speak. The Tesla Destructor is a nice anti light-armor/light-infantry weapon, and the underslung gun is just a bonus. They'd be good in a shooting army. Though, in the Decurion, you'd need a minimum of 2, and a Doomsday Ark. So meh.

I guess my problem is I've never used expensive single models, usually my army tends towards hordes of troops. The CCB worries me cause it's so much in one basket, so to speak. I do see why it might be good, I'll have to try it as a proxy at least once. Is a single model, even a vehicle like that, going to have much in the way of survivability? That's the same reason I never run my D-lord by himself.

As for the Annihilation barge, do we really need more anti-light infantry, when I'm doing full strength or close to full strength warrior phalanxes?

Finally, what's a good mix for warriors to immortals? I'm thinking that without ghost arks, there's few reasons to have any warriors, 4 points for higher armor, ap and weapon str seems a steal.


(kinda new, so a lot of questions)

The advantage of A-barges (and tesla in general) over warrior blobs vs. infantry is that they don't have to get within 12" to do it effectively.

Evilbookworm wrote:

I guess my problem is I've never used expensive single models, usually my army tends towards hordes of troops. The CCB worries me cause it's so much in one basket, so to speak. I do see why it might be good, I'll have to try it as a proxy at least once. Is a single model, even a vehicle like that, going to have much in the way of survivability? That's the same reason I never run my D-lord by himself.

As for the Annihilation barge, do we really need more anti-light infantry, when I'm doing full strength or close to full strength warrior phalanxes?

Finally, what's a good mix for warriors to immortals? I'm thinking that without ghost arks, there's few reasons to have any warriors, 4 points for higher armor, ap and weapon str seems a steal.


(kinda new, so a lot of questions)

An overlord on a barge is very survivable, just avoid anything with Melta Bombs or Powerfists. The Annihilation Barge is good, and it helps against T5-T6+, as you don't wanna solely rely on S4-5 to deal all of your wounds.

As far as the ratio goes, Ghost arks are nice, but consider the fact that your main anti-tank will be Gauss. Does the gauss matter if it's a S5 gun or a S4 gun? No, it doesn't. Warriors will shoot and kill vehicles easier because of sheer weight of fire and more shots, as well as wound anything T7+ better, again, simply because of the weight of fire. I typically run 2+ units of Warriors (Usually one squad of about 15+ and another squad in a ghost ark, unless I'm footslogging, then 2 squads of 15+) and 1-2 squads of 10 Immortals (I personally always run 10, because I like them)

So reading all this tactica, watching bat reps and whatnot. Should I stop looking at necrons as a shooting army, and start looking at them as more of a hybrid, like how Space Marines are?

Decurion crons can choose to assault like orks and daemons, or shoot like Tau, while maintaining resilience stronger than marines.

Necrons are not a primarily shooting army like Tau or Eldar. We lack the variety of special weapons and only have a few things with long ranges, so we're not the type to sit in a gun line and hide from retaliation. However, nor are they a primarily assault army, though we have some good options for that as well.

Necrons are primarily a resilient army. The most noteworthy skill of our forces is the ability to take a huge amount of fire with Reanimation Protocols and generally good Armor/Invuln saves. The defining trait of Necrons isn't the ability to remove enemies quickly like some armies, it's the ability to grind down enemies while we take whatever punishment they throw at us.

Whether that takes the form of an Assault unit or a Shooting unit, the result is the same - you move towards the enemy while shrugging off the damage and once you get into shooting range/charge distance, you start returning it as good as you take it.

Personally, I think trying to make an army purely of Assault or Shooting is losing a lot of what makes the book great - we have fantastic units in both categories and they compliment each other so well. In particular, our Assault units like Lychguard or Wraiths are strong enough to require attention, but aren't enough to win games by themselves. Likewise, our shooting options are good, especially when you get into Destroyers to go with your Troops. But, they need protection from enemy assaults and rarely want to put themselves all the way downfield. A balanced Necron force uses both to have footholds in every part of the map and deal with variable threats.

I'm curious if it will still be possible to go with a praetorian themed army instead of a destroyer one now that Eldar have arrived.
I was having excellent success with praetorians pre-eldar update.

omerakk wrote:
I'm curious if it will still be possible to go with a praetorian themed army instead of a destroyer one now that Eldar have arrived.
I was having excellent success with praetorians pre-eldar update.

Praetorians are certainly good now, I can't wait to get more so I can run 2x 10 man Squads

Funny dyslexia story: I thought this thread was about Necron erotica the first time I scanned past it.

On topic, though: I hear both C'Tan have leadership related abilities now. Are there any other leadership modifiers in the new 'dex, or leadership related attack forms?

I don't think there are but if you wanted to do just a pure Anti-Fluff Army, you'd take the Conclave of the Burning one with a Dark Eldar Detachment.

Free Pscychic Shriek every turn that cannot be stopped.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Funny dyslexia story: I thought this thread was about Necron erotica the first time I scanned past it.

On topic, though: I hear both C'Tan have leadership related abilities now. Are there any other leadership modifiers in the new 'dex, or leadership related attack forms?

Related Leadership debuffs/attacks:

Nightbringer's Gaze of Death - 12" psychic scream ability

Deceiver's Dread - 12" bubble of -2 LD.

Nightmare Shroud Relic - Fear, and one-use ability, make an enemy unit immediately take a Morale test.

Mindshackle Scarabs - 3d6 Fear test while fighting in a challenge

Deathbringer Flight formation - Enemy units have -1 LD while within 12" of 2+ Doom Scythes from the formation.

Sorry if this has been asked before. I've read through a lot of this thread but couldn't see this being asked.

Can deathmarks assault in your turn after they have arrived in your opponents turn using ethereal interception? If so, are there any restrictions in having a Dlord join them and assault also? Possibly even splitting off and assaulting different to the deathmarks.

Thanks

A unit may not assault the turn they arrive from deepstrike. When it does not specify *game* turn, it tells us to assume player turn.

So your deathmarks may not charge in the player turn they arrive(your opponents turn) , however, nothing stops them assaulting in the next player turn.