Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 vipoid wrote:
I suspect the best solution would be to just not play against that kind of nonsense.

This guy gets it.

Well yeah, if you're just playing at your FLGS with people who don't hate each other, then this is a non-issue. Probably like 90% of people who even play 40k won't come across most LoWs aside from the readily available ones, and even those are generally not brought between friends. Same reason you don't read people asking how to defeat Warhound Titans or Aetaos'Rau'Keres.

Discussion is more bended towards competitive play, though, and there are plenty of tourneys out there that run less restrictions. Sounds like the ITC format is going to ban it, though.

Requizen wrote:
Sounds like the ITC format is going to ban it, though.

This needs to happen in more formats, then.

Requizen wrote:

Oberron wrote:
So what makes the escalation LOW choices for necrons obsolete?

The Obelisk is good on paper. 100 points more than a monolith for 2 more HP and SHV status. That's not bad. The fire output is pretty good as well, especially if you are allowed to angle and fire 3 guns at one target (though that's still somewhat contested). But, compared to other SHVs, it doesn't have the raw damage output. The "good" non-Walker SHVs are things like Baneblade Variants, the Lynx, etc. Things with big, nasty guns that shoot across the table. In comparison, the Obelisk has some 24" guns that don't have AP values and a sometimes-useful Gravity Pulse. Without a Save and having relatively short range for a SHV, it just doesn't survive that long as long as they have any amount of reliable anti-tank on the field.

The Tesseract Vault is 250 more points for 3 more HP and the Powers of the C'tan. While the random powers are somewhat ok on the Nightbringer, paying 550 points for a single, random power is pretty garbage overall (it does still have Tesla, but with the size it makes it hard to fire them off). It would probably be worth bringing if you could choose the powers, but RNG on a SHV that costs around 1/3 of your army is not ok. It does always suffer the biggest explosion, so you could try to make it a suicide bomb... but that's not exactly a "good" option. Not to mention that most tournaments do the ruling of "every 3 HP is another VP", so the Vault is 3 VPs just if you kill it. That's a lot.

So you have a decent one that's kind of a tougher Monolith with less damage output (on average, the Tesla can do some damage but the S8 AP3 large blast is better against most things), or a very expensive vehicle with a single, randomized shooting attack. The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.

Thank you for the response but I am not talking about the LOW options from the new codex I mean the LOW options from the Escalation book, the one with the op T C'tan and such.

Oberron wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Oberron wrote:
So what makes the escalation LOW choices for necrons obsolete?

The Obelisk is good on paper. 100 points more than a monolith for 2 more HP and SHV status. That's not bad. The fire output is pretty good as well, especially if you are allowed to angle and fire 3 guns at one target (though that's still somewhat contested). But, compared to other SHVs, it doesn't have the raw damage output. The "good" non-Walker SHVs are things like Baneblade Variants, the Lynx, etc. Things with big, nasty guns that shoot across the table. In comparison, the Obelisk has some 24" guns that don't have AP values and a sometimes-useful Gravity Pulse. Without a Save and having relatively short range for a SHV, it just doesn't survive that long as long as they have any amount of reliable anti-tank on the field.

The Tesseract Vault is 250 more points for 3 more HP and the Powers of the C'tan. While the random powers are somewhat ok on the Nightbringer, paying 550 points for a single, random power is pretty garbage overall (it does still have Tesla, but with the size it makes it hard to fire them off). It would probably be worth bringing if you could choose the powers, but RNG on a SHV that costs around 1/3 of your army is not ok. It does always suffer the biggest explosion, so you could try to make it a suicide bomb... but that's not exactly a "good" option. Not to mention that most tournaments do the ruling of "every 3 HP is another VP", so the Vault is 3 VPs just if you kill it. That's a lot.

So you have a decent one that's kind of a tougher Monolith with less damage output (on average, the Tesla can do some damage but the S8 AP3 large blast is better against most things), or a very expensive vehicle with a single, randomized shooting attack. The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.

Thank you for the response but I am not talking about the LOW options from the new codex I mean the LOW options from the Escalation book, the one with the op T C'tan and such.

New rules trump old rules. The Obelisk, Tesseract Vault, and T-C'tan rules in Escalation no longer apply to the current games as all of those models have more current rules in the new book. Yes, even though the T-C'tan is HS in the new book, the old GC rules are no longer legal.

Requizen wrote:

New rules trump old rules. The Obelisk, Tesseract Vault, and T-C'tan rules in Escalation no longer apply to the current games as all of those models have more current rules in the new book. Yes, even though the T-C'tan is HS in the new book, the old GC rules are no longer legal.

Which is actually a boon except for the T C'tan. The other models got better, imo.

The Tesseract Vault got better?

Kind of a side-grade. If you just got it as cheap as it could be, the new version is more expensive. But if you wanted the better shooting powers, then the new version is cheaper. But, random shooting. Neither version would be considered competitive, really it was always just the old T-C'tan. Shame, if they allowed it now it would be pretty comparable to the Wraithknight (much stronger imo, but also more expensive. Comparable, overall)

Also, how big are the Wraith bases? I'm converting some but I can't remember. They're 40mm?

40mm. Though I put mine on 50mm, because 40mm look dinky for them (imo).

 obsidiankatana wrote:
40mm. Though I put mine on 50mm, because 40mm look dinky for them (imo).

Agreed. They fall over all the time on 40mm.

I'd prefer to keep the same size... but I agree about the bases being problematic. I might just stick some washers or something on the bottom to weigh them down.

Hmm. I know the monolith/obelisk is subpar, but what if we brought as many as humanly possible in 2000 points?
What could it accomplish then?
(Pretend they don't get the D shot at them)

Hey guys,
So I know these have been answered before (many many many times), but I would just like confirmation. I regularly take Crons as allies alongside my Orks. However the Crons are generally pulling most of the weight in the list. I actually came into a large force of Crons which I have been converting to become Orki-Crons. So I have access to most of the units in the dex (given the time to convert them - as I like converting). So I think its time I started a more Cron centred force.

Reclamation Legion; (minimum to take alongside Orks)

Overlord - I should give him Sythe, res-orb and maybe veil/Shroud. Stick him with warriors for max res-orb use? or the 5 man immortal unit? I have a 5 man unit of both telsa and gauss.

tomb blades - Vanes, because why not. Gauss, then either shadowlooms or scopes, thinking maybe scopes. Using them as obj-grabbers with some max range shooting at amour sides.

Wraith formation;

Do I give them all whip coils? I can't see why I wouldn't? Unless I want some situational ID? but generally coils?

Do you give the spyder anything other than TL beamer?

I find coils to be unneeded. Wraiths are so durable in the first place that what they need is more of a punch. I take Beamers on mine. On occasion you give them Shred and one of our main problems, Monstrous Creatures, is less of a hurdle.

I like coils because they're cheap.

How do Beamers work for you?

Deshkar wrote:
oddly enough, last tournament our IK player running triple wardens in a baronial court formation just ran over two decurion necrons with destroyer cults.

good placement of the IKs with 3++ on the front, coming in at a slight diagonal angle can actually negate a lot of a D-Cult's firepower. the one slight exposed angle? he sent his small twc star in that direction.
the triple warden's 36 avenger shots concentrated at the heavy destroyers, or the furthest destroyers while he strive to charge the nearer ones. Given average rolls, 3 (heavy) destroyers will die in one turn by that shooting alone.

What is a decurion necron?

Im just coming back after about a 3 year break, so i might as well be a noobie again.

The new codices (Necrons on) have Combi-detachments as an option instead of a traditional force org. The Decurion (and similar combi-detachments) are made of a Core formation alongside 1 or more Auxiliary formations and optional command formations. For the Decurion, the Core formation is the Reclamation legion, which consists of an Overlord (or named character substitute) 2+ units of Warriors, 1+ unit of Immortals, and 1+ unit of Tomb Blades, with the option to add in a few other units like Lychguard or Monoliths.

Xafilah wrote:
Hmm. I know the monolith/obelisk is subpar, but what if we brought as many as humanly possible in 2000 points?
What could it accomplish then?
(Pretend they don't get the D shot at them)

Assuming no D-Spam, Grav Spam or other build with gratuitous vehicle deleting potential, something like 3 heavy support Monoliths and 2 Living Tomb Monoliths ought to perform passably on raw durability and ability to batter their way onto objectives.

Firepower is a problem though.

 vipoid wrote:
I like coils because they're cheap.

How do Beamers work for you?

If you're gonna run Harvest Beamer Wraiths, best stick that Destroyer Lord with them.
More than almost any other unit, they're going to benefit from rerolling 1s the most.

Hm, assuming all stock Wraiths, would a unit of 6 + 2 units of 3 be better, or 3 units of 4?

The first lets you throw small units of 3 at enemies and lets the big unit get to where it needs to be, but if the big unit gets tied up it can be problematic. While the latter is more well balanced, you don't have a big single screen to discourage Deathstars or LoWs.

Requizen wrote:
Hm, assuming all stock Wraiths, would a unit of 6 + 2 units of 3 be better, or 3 units of 4?

The first lets you throw small units of 3 at enemies and lets the big unit get to where it needs to be, but if the big unit gets tied up it can be problematic. While the latter is more well balanced, you don't have a big single screen to discourage Deathstars or LoWs.

I think you'll probably find instances where you would have preferred the opposite, but you can't massively anticipate that.

Personally, I like the idea of 3x4, they are uniform and of equal threat, it makes your moves harder to predict. A larger blob... well I know which group of wraiths I should be tying up. Secondly, you can always throw 2x4 at a deathstar if you feel the need for more bodies. But that's generally my perspective and something I do with most of my armies to some degree.

Requizen wrote:
I'd prefer to keep the same size... but I agree about the bases being problematic. I might just stick some washers or something on the bottom to weigh them down.

The major problem I have with them is it's damn hard to get them in base contact if you run whip coils... they get tangled up in everything.

Also, I had one lose his coils last weekend, as he jumped off the top of a hill and out of play.

My latest issue with list building is figuring out which HQ to take if you're not running a gimmick that requires one. Orikanstar requires, well, Orikan (and probably Zahndrekh for Fearless). Flyerspam requires Zahndrekh or Imotekh for reserve manipulation. Beamer Wraiths at least really want a Destroyer Lord, if not require it.

But if you're not running any of those strats, none of the HQs really feel super useful. Especially if you're going for a shooting focused army, at which point there's not much that boosts shooting output. Really only the DLord with PE(E) and Zahndrekh with the ability to pick up the Command Trait to reroll 1s in the bubble.

What HQs do you guys use when you're not doing some sort of gimmick?

I have the exact same issue. Our HQs just don't seem to do anything. Their support abilities are virtually non-existent, same goes for their shooting. But, they're also not very effective as combat characters either. It's like having the option to stick an expensive brick wall in a unit.

In terms of the HQs I use, the 4 main ones are: Zahndrekh, Destroyer Lord, Overlord and CCB.

- Zahndrekh is probably the most useful, but I just dislike SCs in general and certainly don't want to use the same one every game.

- Destroyer Lords are taken only because I want a Destroyer Cult. Beyond that, I just can't find much to do with them. JSJ was a bloody awful change as it crippled their melee ability. So, all I can really do is stick them with some warriors or something and have them meander around like a regular overlord.

- Speaking of which, Overlords are something I take because they're the cheapest HQ I can get in a Decurion. If I want to be fluffy then I'll give them some gear, otherwise I'll stick with the 80pt brick wall.

- CCB. On the one hand, it's probably the only non-character HQ liable to actually accomplish something. On the other, it seems really, really vulnerable - especially as my Warlord. And, in fact, every time I used it as such it died horribly (even when I played safe with it). If you can keep it out of trouble then it's not bad. But, with stuff like D-weapons floating round (not to mention melee units that ignore all its defences), that's a big 'if'.

It's something I find really annoying, tbh. HQs are generally my favourite part of any army and Necrons even have some nice wargear. But, the Overlord and D-lord just don't do anything. They lack the speed to support melee squads, but also lack the shooting and/or support abilities to support ranged squads. And, with the loss of MSS, they can't even act as a deterrent to MCs, uber-characters and such. Sigh.

 vipoid wrote:
I have the exact same issue. Our HQs just don't seem to do anything. Their support abilities are virtually non-existent, same goes for their shooting. But, they're also not very effective as combat characters either. It's like having the option to stick an expensive brick wall in a unit.

In terms of the HQs I use, the 4 main ones are: Zahndrekh, Destroyer Lord, Overlord and CCB.

- Zahndrekh is probably the most useful, but I just dislike SCs in general and certainly don't want to use the same one every game.

- Destroyer Lords are taken only because I want a Destroyer Cult. Beyond that, I just can't find much to do with them. JSJ was a bloody awful change as it crippled their melee ability. So, all I can really do is stick them with some warriors or something and have them meander around like a regular overlord.

- Speaking of which, Overlords are something I take because they're the cheapest HQ I can get in a Decurion. If I want to be fluffy then I'll give them some gear, otherwise I'll stick with the 80pt brick wall.

- CCB. On the one hand, it's probably the only non-character HQ liable to actually accomplish something. On the other, it seems really, really vulnerable - especially as my Warlord. And, in fact, every time I used it as such it died horribly (even when I played safe with it). If you can keep it out of trouble then it's not bad. But, with stuff like D-weapons floating round (not to mention melee units that ignore all its defences), that's a big 'if'.

It's something I find really annoying, tbh. HQs are generally my favourite part of any army and Necrons even have some nice wargear. But, the Overlord and D-lord just don't do anything. They lack the speed to support melee squads, but also lack the shooting and/or support abilities to support ranged squads. And, with the loss of MSS, they can't even act as a deterrent to MCs, uber-characters and such. Sigh.

Wasn't there something many pages back about using Deathmarks as a delivery mechanism for the Dlord?

I find I'm leaning towards either the Dlord or CCB at the moment. Haven't really run the Dlord much, but the CCB has been fairly useful at bullying units like Devastators and the Living Artillery Node for me.

How have you guys been finding the nightbringer, in or outside of the conclave? I've been going back and forth a little and I think I like running him naked (just because it lets my army have some more support and I don't really have the points with my wraithwing and the Orikan star). Just curious to hear how/if other people have been using him. I run Orikan with my wraiths and a D lord just FYI.

 luke1705 wrote:
How have you guys been finding the nightbringer, in or outside of the conclave? I've been going back and forth a little and I think I like running him naked (just because it lets my army have some more support and I don't really have the points with my wraithwing and the Orikan star). Just curious to hear how/if other people have been using him. I run Orikan with my wraiths and a D lord just FYI.

The nightbringer is subpar, but only because of D weapons. If you are playing in a meta that doesn't allow D weapons or where they are really scarce then he is actually pretty solid.

If you run him in a conclave with crypteks fully loaded with gear for tanking shots (god shackle, thermasite, phase shifter, nightmare shroud) and other tricks (either solar staff or veil of darkness) then he is pretty much unstoppable except for D.

Basically D alone makes him unviable and he is outshined by Wraiths and Destroyers who will always pull their weight.

I don't know if I would call him subpar. With decent threat saturation, he's not awful (and really any BLOS terrain should keep him safe from the D for a turn, especially if you are conclaving him so he can fire with full effectiveness turn 2). The idea that "there is D in the game so he's too many points invested in one unit" is a little off to me. Did we stop taking land raiders because of D? Did we stop taking wraithknights because of D? No, because they have their merits. (I mean land raiders not really but you get my point). I don't think that the Nightbringer is so many points that I would worry about him getting the D and losing a huge chunk of my army. Plus his invuln isn't awful, and he could definitely get 3+ cover with night fighting.

 luke1705 wrote:
I don't know if I would call him subpar. With decent threat saturation, he's not awful (and really any BLOS terrain should keep him safe from the D for a turn, especially if you are conclaving him so he can fire with full effectiveness turn 2). The idea that "there is D in the game so he's too many points invested in one unit" is a little off to me. Did we stop taking land raiders because of D? Did we stop taking wraithknights because of D? No, because they have their merits. (I mean land raiders not really but you get my point). I don't think that the Nightbringer is so many points that I would worry about him getting the D and losing a huge chunk of my army. Plus his invuln isn't awful, and he could definitely get 3+ cover with night fighting.

By that same argument, what do you think of the T C'tan?

Imo, he may not have the Gaze, but he's got an organic deep strike which frees up the points that you'd otherwise have spent on the conclave.

willow wrote:

Wasn't there something many pages back about using Deathmarks as a delivery mechanism for the Dlord?

There was - I suggested it, lol.

However, the guy asked about HQs that don't involve combos, and I though that would count as a combo.

Also, it does rather fall apart if your opponent isn't using deep-striking units. or your deathmarks arrive from reserve before his units.