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Debilitate wrote:
Does anyone want to talk about the elephant in the room that is Ghost Arks carting around warriors getting boned?

Meh, I'm surprised anyone allowed it the other way around anyway, as far as Jinking + not snap firing troops inside went, just didn't make sense. Ship is jumping around so much that it can't shoot straight, but the dudes inside are obviously fine. In my book, Ghost Arks are still in the same spot. Pretty ok, but overall non-superheavy vehicles are just too easy to kill right now. The only ones that really "work" from a competitive sense are drop pods and free Bat Company stuff. And flyers, in some cases.

Yeah, it sucks, but They won't get used any more or less than they were, imo.

So Just got a look at our flyers... and well I don't know what I was expecting, but I suppose I should get used to disappointment. Fast(ish) but suck at maneuvers, no changes to the death ray, and the formation is merely ok because we don't have any amazing vehicles (though PE for enemy HQ is amusing).

We can't taxi other armies vehicles since we don't have any battle brothers, so we are dropping off stalkers, monoliths, maybe an ob, or maybe a ark. I think it might work with living tomb, so you could pull of some clever deep strike shenanigans, but that's an insane amount of points.

Link for the interested: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?68413-New-fliers-for-orks-and-marines&p=542655&viewfull=1#post542655

Yeah, way too expensive imo. Would be cool for large point fun games, but no way something like that becomes a normal thing in the meta.

What specifically do the new rules (Combat Role, Pursuit, Agility) do? We lost Skyfire, right? Did we get anything in return?

Did I read that template weapons can hit zooming flyers? If so, then that's a point in favor of the Death Scythes, particularly with Ignores Cover.

Requizen wrote:Yeah, way too expensive imo. Would be cool for large point fun games, but no way something like that becomes a normal thing in the meta.

What specifically do the new rules (Combat Role, Pursuit, Agility) do? We lost Skyfire, right? Did we get anything in return?

Fighters get optional skyfire with a -1 penalty to ground targets (some bonuses in dogfight phase)
Attack flyers which all your necron flyers are (have other modifiers)
Bombers which dont apply to you .. (cant dogfight pretty sure)

Anpu-adom wrote:Did I read that template weapons can hit zooming flyers? If so, then that's a point in favor of the Death Scythes, particularly with Ignores Cover.

So it is weird... fighters have optional skyfire.. but so far no rule pictures show whether or not the other flyers still have skyfire or not... and this book clearly says it replaces the rules in the BRB... so my initial guesstimate is that the attack flyers and bombers DO NOT have skyfire on the table top.... I could be wrong though.

*EDIT* IMO .. if attack flyers and bombers do not have skyfire then fighters should have to snapfire at ground targets. Force their role as air to air just like attack/bomber forces to ground targets.

Oh joy, none of our craft are fighters, meaning that we have no skyfire in the army.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh joy, none of our craft are fighters, meaning that we have no skyfire in the army.

I want to make it clear this is not 100% for sure...... http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6639&stc=1

You can see in this image that it specifically talks about skyfire for a fighter.. so far no other rules show whether or not the other types have it or don't.

Full rules here... *scroll down. the title is misleading lol* http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?32234-New-Space-Marines-Angels-of-Death-PREVIEW

@RequizenMade, I think we got boned, jk, kinnda. The new formation is so so, if we had amazing vehicles it would be great, If we had battle brothers with amazing vehicles it would be better, but as the most likely thing to get deployed is an Ob, it's really so-so. We also get to re-roll ones to wound rolls against units with HQ models in it, which pretty much guarantees wounds with the death ray. Of course since Invis is being handed out like candy, and 3++ is more common than belly buttons in deathstars, I imagine it's going to make zero difference. Which is too bad because I think our flyers look cool, and I have two of them. Outside of using them to soften up my list for friendly games I don't expect to get much use out of them.

 Grimgold wrote:
@RequizenMade, I think we got boned, jk, kinnda. The new formation is so so, if we had amazing vehicles it would be great, If we had battle brothers with amazing vehicles it would be better, but as the most likely thing to get deployed is an Ob, it's really so-so. We also get to re-roll ones to wound rolls against units with HQ models in it, which pretty much guarantees wounds with the death ray. Of course since Invis is being handed out like candy, and 3++ is more common than belly buttons in deathstars, I imagine it's going to make zero difference. Which is too bad because I think our flyers look cool, and I have two of them. Outside of using them to soften up my list for friendly games I don't expect to get much use out of them.

I think dark eldar got the best formation... but Eldar's is neat (i play Iyanden so i usually have a hemlock for fluff reasons)

Yes cause the Eldar needed more awesome, though it's hard to imagine them spending points on aircraft when their ground forces are so much stronger. The real winner appears to marines.

After looking more closely, I might use 2 Night Scythes to get the pattern bonus, but yeah nothing that makes me want to use them any more than I currently do.

Oh well, nearly done with my Renegade/Necron Knight conversion, which is for sure gonna be effective.

Requizen wrote:
After looking more closely, I might use 2 Night Scythes to get the pattern bonus, but yeah nothing that makes me want to use them any more than I currently do.

Oh well, nearly done with my Renegade/Necron Knight conversion, which is for sure gonna be effective.

That is honestly how I feel about the flyer book in general from what I have seen.

It adds a little extra intrigue, but it is not over the top OP.

Here is my question though. The flyer datasheets are a replacement for those we have.. which have in their slate the rules to run a wing. I am assuming this means that if i have a flyer in a formation, I can bring it in my formation as a wing? Thusly, benefiting from both the formation bonuses and possible attack patterns?

That was my understanding. When I was playing around with it I took a doom bringer flight, and the night scythe as a dedicated transport for a Lych star. which would have given it everliving, cacophony, in addition to the formation and flight special rules.

So, skimming over the last few pages that I've missed, let me see if I have this right.

Conclave of the Burning One is useless now.

We have no Skyfire.

Ghost Arks jinking is now terrible and even more-so not worth taking.

Am I missing anything?

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, skimming over the last few pages that I've missed, let me see if I have this right.

Conclave of the Burning One is useless now.

Not useless, just not an all in one package. Still worth if you're planning on having another Cryptek to hold the God Shackle. If you're not, you have to choose whether to drop the Veil or the Solar Staff. I think dropping the Staff is... moderately less worse? You still have T8 lots of wounds and invulns + RP/FNP on everything. So... you still get screwed against some things (like Eldar, but what's new?) but even without the one turn invis you're actually pretty tough. Definitely hurts it, though. I might consider switching the Nightbringer for the Deceiver, go a bit more shooty and focus less on getting into that 12" bubble.

 krodarklorr wrote:
We have no Skyfire.

We've got the Sentry Pylon with Gauss from Forge World. If this books marks a sudden surge in Flyers, they might actually be worthwhile. Currently, though, I'd hold off.

Oh, and the Super Heavy Pylon. Yes, I'm still salty.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Ghost Arks jinking is now terrible and even more-so not worth taking.

Yeah, more or less.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Am I missing anything?

Rod Praetorians are confirmed to work the way that actually makes sense. Still no word as to whether or not they can actually use their Dedicated Transport. Not much specifically affects us.

Don't forget the huge no-fly zone that is the Obelisk...

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Don't forget the huge no-fly zone that is the Obelisk...

Oh, you mean the no fly zone that only has a 1/6 chance of working, on an 300 point anti-air unit without skyfire?
Yeah, very scary.

Requizen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, skimming over the last few pages that I've missed, let me see if I have this right.

Conclave of the Burning One is useless now.

Not useless, just not an all in one package. Still worth if you're planning on having another Cryptek to hold the God Shackle. If you're not, you have to choose whether to drop the Veil or the Solar Staff. I think dropping the Staff is... moderately less worse? You still have T8 lots of wounds and invulns + RP/FNP on everything. So... you still get screwed against some things (like Eldar, but what's new?) but even without the one turn invis you're actually pretty tough. Definitely hurts it, though. I might consider switching the Nightbringer for the Deceiver, go a bit more shooty and focus less on getting into that 12" bubble.

 krodarklorr wrote:
We have no Skyfire.

We've got the Sentry Pylon with Gauss from Forge World. If this books marks a sudden surge in Flyers, they might actually be worthwhile. Currently, though, I'd hold off.

Oh, and the Super Heavy Pylon. Yes, I'm still salty.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Ghost Arks jinking is now terrible and even more-so not worth taking.

Yeah, more or less.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Am I missing anything?

Rod Praetorians are confirmed to work the way that actually makes sense. Still no word as to whether or not they can actually use their Dedicated Transport. Not much specifically affects us.

Oh, I did forget the whole Lance ignoring Quantum Shielding now. Because reasons.

Eh, I'm fine with it. It does simplify things, as before the interaction was a little weird, and fluff wise it does make sense that an Eldar weapon would counter a necron defensive system, as the Eldar were created to fight necrons.

Some proper psychic defenses would be nice though. Bring back pariahs and give us null fields, not that wimpy gloom prism nonsense.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, I'm fine with it. It does simplify things, as before the interaction was a little weird, and fluff wise it does make sense that an Eldar weapon would counter a necron defensive system, as the Eldar were created to fight necrons.

Some proper psychic defenses would be nice though. Bring back pariahs and give us null fields, not that wimpy gloom prism nonsense.

Yes, Eldar were created to fight Necrons. Necrons are also supposed to have the most technologically crazy and advanced weapons and wargear. But yet Eldar beat them again on that.

That's how war evolves. Your enemy makes something, you make something to counter it. That's why Necrons need anti-psy to counter the Eldar's psy, just as Eldar lances counter our armor.

Tesla ignoring holofields would be nice too; Necrons had lightning weapons that could ignore holofields in BFG, as the bolts would be attracted to the ship's hull.
Being able to ignore Hard to Hit would be handy as well, because flying things don't like lightning.

All that said, Eldar really didn't another buff. The lance buff wouldn't be so bad if Eldar weren't already stupidly strong.

I get it, our army's shtick is that it is super durable. Yet, it seems that our weapons that "atomize matter that it touches" are significantly underpowered. How about it actually being useful against infantry armor, rather than only really mattering against high toughness?

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I get it, our army's shtick is that it is super durable. Yet, it seems that our weapons that "atomize matter that it touches" are significantly underpowered. How about it actually being useful against infantry armor, rather than only really mattering against high toughness?

Honestly, I think it should have a similar effect of Bladestorm.

Sharing gimmicks isn't something I'm a fan of. -1 modifier to saves would be different enough, that's immediately applied whenever you wound and is used for AP (but does not carry over across attacks. Basically the same as the armor modifier rule from WHFB). Should help a bit against heavy infantry, which is something necrons don't have that much of an answer to.
Unless you want to pay premium prices, that is.
I always thought the 5th ed entropic mechanic was neat.

Debilitate wrote:
Does anyone want to talk about the elephant in the room that is Ghost Arks carting around warriors getting boned?

How so?

Edit: nvm, that was a previous page.

While these changes aren't enough to relegate us to bottom tier, they're definitely not helping us for the most part.
I doubt the codex specific FAQs will be all that earth shattering, either.
At this point, the only way I see them trying to come up with a fix for how they just kind screwed our fliers over would be releasing a supplement (Including: Rules to give Annihilation Barges skyfire? Some sort of new flyer? (small size combi-kit. build a fighter or an assault transport, something we're sorely lacking)... and while I'm dreaming: The return of the Harbingers? Maybe the reintroduction of the Pariahs? A new named C'Tan shard? (the Burning One would make the most sense, but I'd love to see the Void Dragon make an appearance, giving us our own FMC equivilent).)

 skoffs wrote:
While these changes aren't enough to relegate us to bottom tier, they're definitely not helping us for the most part.
I doubt the codex specific FAQs will be all that earth shattering, either.
At this point, the only way I see them trying to come up with a fix for how they just kind screwed our fliers over would be releasing a supplement (Including: Rules to give Annihilation Barges skyfire? Some sort of new flyer? (small size combi-kit. build a fighter or an assault transport, something we're sorely lacking)... and while I'm dreaming: The return of the Harbingers? Maybe the reintroduction of the Pariahs? A new named C'Tan shard? (the Burning One would make the most sense, but I'd love to see the Void Dragon make an appearance, giving us our own FMC equivilent).)

Nothing lately particularly hurts us. The only thing that "nerfs" us in the FAQs is the Ghost Ark thing, and I guess Lance/QS if you were playing it at 12 previously (though I don't know anyone who allowed that).

Flyers losing Skyfire sucks a bit, but I don't bring flyers to snipe other flyers. I bring Night Scythes to transport my dudes and make short work of MSU on the ground. I don't bring Doom Scythes because they're pretty terrible. The only thing it really affects is the odd time where I was able to burn down a Flyrant, but that's pretty rare in my experience, and I've had a lot of success just dropping 10 Warriors underneath one and just Rapid Firing up into it, which still works.

I don't see any new Necron releases for a while, personally. I could be surprised, but the theme lately has been to use the Warzone books to bring out of date books into line with formations and MFDs, which we already have. If anything, I expect IA12 to get updated sooner than an actual GW Necron release.

So a bit of advice. I'm going up against eldar here soon, (corsair most likely) and i'm looking at coming up with a pretty strong list, as we're brining competitive stuff. Usually I tend towards more fluff-based lists myself. I'm currently looking at standard decurion, as I hate deathstars, and want to avoid the orikanstar I'm seeing a lot of lists run.

overlord with warscythe, PS, conflagurator (possibly zandreck, I need the reserves support)
2x10 warriors, each with night scythe
1x10 immortals, NS

5x tomb blades, shield vanes, scope, beamers
5x tomb blades, shield vanes, scope, gauss

destroyer cult,
3x3 dest
1x3 HD.

DL with phase shifter, warscythe, possibly conflagurator if I go zandreck.

DL runs with one of the destroyer groups until they get too close then breaks off, the OL/zandreck runs with the immortals.

Pretty standard list, but I don't want any arks, not with the FAQ making them 105 pt av 11 rhinos against lances, and the jink rules. At the same time, the list seems to lack offensive firepower, though I'm reasonably certain of keeping my guys alive with the decurion. any suggestions (if the list is a few points over, I will do some wargear tweaking)

Sorry bro, your only hope is to take orikanstar in a scythe. Every time I play against eldar I get raped in the psychic phase. I'd also recommend against the dcult unless you're sure that he's going to be bringing a lot of av. It's too point heavy, and once the av is gone it's next to useless for killing his pskyers. Tomb blades are good for their ignore cover, you should be able to do some work with those. I've been trying to work in praets but have been struggling with their measly 12 inch range. I've been having good luck running a tricked out dlord with my wraiths, fwiw.

Veryance wrote:
Sorry bro, your only hope is to take orikanstar in a scythe. Every time I play against eldar I get raped in the psychic phase. I'd also recommend against the dcult unless you're sure that he's going to be bringing a lot of av. It's too point heavy, and once the av is gone it's next to useless for killing his pskyers. Tomb blades are good for their ignore cover, you should be able to do some work with those. I've been trying to work in praets but have been struggling with their measly 12 inch range. I've been having good luck running a tricked out dlord with my wraiths, fwiw.

I'm going against corsair eldar, not craftworld. a lot less psykers. I've considered trying the dlord with the wraiths, I just don't know, I know that the new FAQ cements that we can use the assault move, but it still seems like it would end up with the unit staggered back.

But I'd rather lose than use a deathstar, in all honesty. I hate them, I feel they are just wrong in 40k. Personal opinion though, and I don't intend to force it as fact.