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Anyone planning to break out a Canoptek Harvest or 2?
Unless you go second and your opponent kills the Spider before activating RP, we get a whole turn of RP Wraiths even if the Spider dies later.

Qlanth wrote:
I just realized they never gave a clarification on what happens if you add scarabs to the unit in a retribution phalanx and they die and come back?

Whelp, better post a comment about it, then!

 Galef wrote:
Anyone planning to break out a Canoptek Harvest or 2?
Unless you go second and your opponent kills the Spider before activating RP, we get a whole turn of RP Wraiths even if the Spider dies later.

Yeah I might try a Wraith Orikanstar at the 3 game event this weekend. ITC used to rule it that you lost RP as soon as you left the bubble, which makes it quite scary for teleporting, but now you get at least one turn of Orikan-empowered Wraiths, which is good.

col_impact wrote:
The weapon is called a Tesla Sphere and the Draft FAQ tells us its sponson-mounted and not hull-mounted. The issue has been settled.

This is the barrel of the gun, sponson mounted means it can shoot what it can be pointed at.
It only points one direction and literally cannot be moved at all. It is a solid piece.

Arguing that RAW it is allowed to fire 270^ is like arguing RAW a Demolisher cannon could fire 270^ if it was sponson mounted.

I'm not going to argue RAI, because that's not what we're addressing, but it's sponson mounted, whatever you can point the barrel at you can shoot, so when you're playing it you have to point the barrel and what you are shooting to have it in your arc of fire.

harkequin wrote:

Arguing that RAW it is allowed to fire 270^ is like arguing RAW a Demolisher cannon could fire 270^ if it was sponson mounted.

...no it's not because the Demolisher Cannon doesn't say that? What kind of back asswards logic is that? If they suddenly said that the C'tan were FMCs would you say that they don't have wings and therefore can't fly? Hint: it doesn't matter because it doesn't say that so don't use a random ass example to try and prove a point.

Back at home with the book, there is no definitive definition of "sponson weapon". There are a couple drawings with lines for a Leman Russ and a Predator showing how they rotate to shoot things based on their mountings.

I know I'm putting a bit too much faith in GW, but I honestly don't think they would say "Sponson Mounted" if they didn't mean for it to be able to turn at all. There is no example in the game of something Sponson Mounted that is a fixed gun, so in the debate between "it can move" and "it can't move", the standing examples would very much lean towards the former rather than the latter.

And come on. It freaking sucks if they can't rotate, completely useless.

It's called "Living metal" That part that "holds the sphere in place" could easily morph away Terminator 2 style, allowing the Sphere to move side to side.
Just sayin' if you're basing it's movement by what it "looks" like it could do, well, it "looks" like it could do that to me.

...no it's not because the Demolisher Cannon doesn't say that? What kind of back asswards logic is that? If they suddenly said that the C'tan were FMCs would you say that they don't have wings and therefore can't fly? Hint: it doesn't matter because it doesn't say that so don't use a random ass example to try and prove a point

The logic is quite simple. the gun is fixed in place.
It's relevant to the discussion, If the FAQ said the demolisher was sponson mounted, we agree it would be silly to say it can fire 270 or 360, because we know how sponsons work, and it cant rotate.

Yet for the tesla sphere which can't rotate , it's a perfectly valid argument?

It's pointing out the absurdity of the argument, people are ignoring the model itself.

Back at home with the book, there is no definitive definition of "sponson weapon". There are a couple drawings with lines for a Leman Russ and a Predator showing how they rotate to shoot things based on their mountings.

However, I'm going off how they are played locally, and to the best of my knowledge, are played in general.

If you want to argue how to play sponson weapons, that's fine, just let me know.

I know I'm putting a bit too much faith in GW, but I honestly don't think they would say "Sponson Mounted" if they didn't mean for it to be able to turn at all. There is no example in the game of something Sponson Mounted that is a fixed gun, so in the debate between "it can move" and "it can't move", the standing examples would very much lean towards the former rather than the latter.

.... same people who gave the following two answers to "lance vs Quantum shielding"
1. Both cancel (AV11)
2. Lance (AV12)

I play the Vault, I'm not going to take liberties with it's firing arcs, unless its 100% clear. It's a vehicle like any other, with weapons fixed in place with a barrel. You measure Arc like you would for demolishers etc.

And come on. It freaking sucks if they can't rotate, completely useless.

Not really, it just requires more thought, I've used it to great effect, by positioning it midfield, and making liberal use of thunderblitz. You can usually get 3 out of 4 spheres to hit things.

The problem is that wishful thinking like this is what had people arguing its firing arc pre-FAQ

RAW it was ironclad, (RAI not so much, given the look of the weapons) and RAW just got muddied with the whole Sponson thing.

Back to point 1 is that Sponson just does literally nothing (like a sponson demolisher would still have the same fire arc)

There is no difference between sponson and hull mounted , both have 45 fire arc from the barrel, Sponson just usually refers to things with mobile barrels (which the vault does not have)

This has just added confusion with no help whatsoever (much like the lance vs shielding issue).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
It's called "Living metal" That part that "holds the sphere in place" could easily morph away Terminator 2 style, allowing the Sphere to move side to side.
Just sayin' if you're basing it's movement by what it "looks" like it could do, well, it "looks" like it could do that to me.

Oh definitely, but that's a RAI issue, the spheres do look awfully mobile, but RAW wise there is nothing for things that "look like they should/could move"

If you and your opponent agree on the intent, then all the power to you.

harkequin wrote:
This is the barrel of the gun, sponson mounted means it can shoot what it can be pointed at.

How do you know this is the 'Barrel' of the weapon and not some other part. I'm asking honestly because I've never put the thing together, so I don't even know if the instructions list the part as a 'barrel'. Or is it just an assumption that everyone will treat this as a barrel, and therefore a part of the weapon? Or that we're actually treating that as just a part of the hull, and keeping the sphere part of the reference to both the weapon and FAQ?

 Akar wrote:
How do you know this is the 'Barrel' of the weapon and not some other part. I'm asking honestly because I've never put the thing together, so I don't even know if the instructions list the part as a 'barrel'. Or is it just an assumption that everyone will treat this as a barrel, and therefore a part of the weapon? Or that we're actually treating that as just a part of the hull, and keeping the sphere part of the reference to both the weapon and FAQ?

Note the metallic part of the Tesla Sphere in the photo and its resemblance to the end of the Tesla Carbine carried by Necron Immortals.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Akar wrote:
How do you know this is the 'Barrel' of the weapon and not some other part. I'm asking honestly because I've never put the thing together, so I don't even know if the instructions list the part as a 'barrel'. Or is it just an assumption that everyone will treat this as a barrel, and therefore a part of the weapon? Or that we're actually treating that as just a part of the hull, and keeping the sphere part of the reference to both the weapon and FAQ?

Note the metallic part of the Tesla Sphere in the photo and its resemblance to the end of the Tesla Carbine carried by Necron Immortals.

I don't own the model. I'd have assumed it shot arcs out of the dark green parts on top of the sphere...

The metallic part I'm referring to is in the center of the dark green part at the top of the sphere.

 Akar wrote:

harkequin wrote:
This is the barrel of the gun, sponson mounted means it can shoot what it can be pointed at.

How do you know this is the 'Barrel' of the weapon and not some other part. I'm asking honestly because I've never put the thing together, so I don't even know if the instructions list the part as a 'barrel'. Or is it just an assumption that everyone will treat this as a barrel, and therefore a part of the weapon? Or that we're actually treating that as just a part of the hull, and keeping the sphere part of the reference to both the weapon and FAQ?

How is that not the barrel? If its not the barrel then what part is the barrel and also what is the purpose of the apparently not barrel?

 CrownAxe wrote:


How is that not the barrel? If its not the barrel then what part is the barrel and also what is the purpose of the apparently not barrel?

That's the muzzle. The barrel is the green sphere.

You shoot the Tesla Sphere.

Without any clear instruction about it being a 'barrel' or not, it could be anything. We're not told in the Codex what it is, which is part of the reason that we needed the FAQ in the first place. If EVERYONE thought the same about that being the barrel, then it's obviously a 'Hull Mounted' weapon with it's limited Arc, and we wouldn't have needed the FAQ in the first place. There were enough confused people to warrant the FAQ. The only other place that it could be listed is in the actual assembly instructions if that piece was defined as 'Barrel' or not.

While it's fine that some assume that it is, others may not. Some will call that a Barrel, when it could just as easily be decoration, an energy vent to direct the build up away from the hull, or even some sort of living jock strap to protect it's balls from taking lasers and rail shots. What is clear is that not everyone agrees about that part being a 'barrel' or not. Something that was stated as a fact, with only an opinion of how they chose to define it.

The FAQ ended the debate. It's a sponson mounted weapon. So we know that it no longer has a fixed arc. Regardless of whether the weapon itself is fixed or not, we have permission to not remain locked into the 45 arc. What isn't clarified is if we go off the Sphere, or the 'Barrel' (if it is in fact a barrel), so we still don't know what the arc is. For those that go off the sphere, RAW or RAI, this is great news, because it fits with what the FAQ states, and makes the Tesla Spheres more user friendly for playing games. For those who want to play the 'Fixed Sponson', they're more than welcome to. Nothing is preventing them from picking targets restricted to that 45 Arc.

All I had asked was for some proof that the part in question is in fact a barrel. Irrelevant to me since I'm not planning to get one, and I won't stop my opponent from using the 270 arc if I actually come up against one. That's what the FAQ tells us to do, fixed barrel or not. I'm not going to get into comparisons to other armies, because no, they probably don't have the Barrel defined on their profiles or kits either. Of course, none of their weapons have 'Sphere' in their name to create as much confusion either.

Like ANY game of 40k, it's going to be up to opponents/TO's to decide what to do with this information.

Sadly with the FAQ on thunderblitz, if the spheres can't rotate to along the hull for fire arcs, the thing is useless

 Akar wrote:
Without any clear instruction about it being a 'barrel' or not, it could be anything.

So we decide that what looks identical to the barrel on a Tesla Carbine is not a barrel on a Tesla Sphere and instead randomly choose something else that doesn't look like a barrel on anything? GW never tells us what the barrel is on a Heavy Bolter is, so should we make the ejection port on the side of the weapon the 'barrel'?

Tesla Sphere - Telsa for lightning, sphere for round thing.

Tesla Sphere - A round thing that shoots lightning.

Imagine it as an eyeball that zaps what it looks at.

The visual field of the human eye spans approximately 120 degrees of arc.

col_impact wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:


How is that not the barrel? If its not the barrel then what part is the barrel and also what is the purpose of the apparently not barrel?

That's the muzzle. The barrel is the green sphere.

You shoot the Tesla Sphere.

weapon name =/= rules, or else a heavy flamer would be a heavy type weapon. Its called a tesla sphere but it isn't a physical sphere at all.

Also muzzle is the end of the barrel, so you are admitting you measure from the metallic section now since you measure "....along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by intervening terrain or models."?

Oberron wrote:

weapon name =/= rules, or else a heavy flamer would be a heavy type weapon.

You example is terrible. A Heavy Flamer is a Heavy Weapon version of a flamer. Infantry models that carry it are not specialists, but the heavies.

I posted up in regards to the Canoptek buff.

Basically, if wraiths are locked in combat, and out of 12" of spyder at the start of the movement phase, yet after spyder movement, end up inside the 12", do they gain buff for rest of turn?

The rule says a buff is chosen at the start of the movement phase, and everything in the formation within 12" gets the buff, yet it doesn't stipulate if it only applies to things that are within 12 when the rule is chosen or not.

Spyder being outside 12 at the start of the movement phase but being within 12 is a very likely situation to happen, frequently.

 adamsouza wrote:

Oberron wrote:

weapon name =/= rules, or else a heavy flamer would be a heavy type weapon.

You example is terrible. A Heavy Flamer is a Heavy Weapon version of a flamer. Infantry models that carry it are not specialists, but the heavies.

But his point is that being called a Heavy Flamer has no effect on the rules for the weapon

 adamsouza wrote:

Oberron wrote:

weapon name =/= rules, or else a heavy flamer would be a heavy type weapon.

You example is terrible. A Heavy Flamer is a Heavy Weapon version of a flamer. Infantry models that carry it are not specialists, but the heavies.

Except that's not true at all there are several units that can have heavy flamers that are not heavies or specialist. There are basic troops that can carry them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klowny wrote:
I posted up in regards to the Canoptek buff.

Basically, if wraiths are locked in combat, and out of 12" of spyder at the start of the movement phase, yet after spyder movement, end up inside the 12", do they gain buff for rest of turn?

The rule says a buff is chosen at the start of the movement phase, and everything in the formation within 12" gets the buff, yet it doesn't stipulate if it only applies to things that are within 12 when the rule is chosen or not.

Spyder being outside 12 at the start of the movement phase but being within 12 is a very likely situation to happen, frequently.

I would say if it isn't there at the start when the buff is chosen it doesn't get it because that is the only point where it checks for the 12" range.

This is the fluff description of a tesla sphere.

Yet wonder turns swiftly to horror as the Obelisk’s weapons cycle up, glowing tesla spheres irising open to spit crawling skeins of lightning that reduce those nearby to blackened, twitching husks

Since tesla sphere is not being referred to as a proper noun (ie Tesla Sphere) the weapon really is a physical sphere.

STOP ARGUING ABOUT IT HERE
and start posting MORE comments about it on the FB page (where it might actually do some good)

Klowny wrote:
I posted up in regards to the Canoptek buff.

Basically, if wraiths are locked in combat, and out of 12" of spyder at the start of the movement phase, yet after spyder movement, end up inside the 12", do they gain buff for rest of turn?

The rule says a buff is chosen at the start of the movement phase, and everything in the formation within 12" gets the buff, yet it doesn't stipulate if it only applies to things that are within 12 when the rule is chosen or not.

Spyder being outside 12 at the start of the movement phase but being within 12 is a very likely situation to happen, frequently.

The FAQ says that the effects last until the end of your next movement phase (which is a weird bit of timing, if you ask me). But yes, wraiths can get the benefit on turn A, move out of 12, charge, get locked in combat and have it for all of Turn A (yours and your opponents). At the start of Turn B, if you can move the Spyder back within 12 inches, then you are set for another whole turn. Way better than how I was playing it.

 Anpu-adom wrote:

Klowny wrote:
I posted up in regards to the Canoptek buff.

Basically, if wraiths are locked in combat, and out of 12" of spyder at the start of the movement phase, yet after spyder movement, end up inside the 12", do they gain buff for rest of turn?

The rule says a buff is chosen at the start of the movement phase, and everything in the formation within 12" gets the buff, yet it doesn't stipulate if it only applies to things that are within 12 when the rule is chosen or not.

Spyder being outside 12 at the start of the movement phase but being within 12 is a very likely situation to happen, frequently.

The FAQ says that the effects last until the end of your next movement phase (which is a weird bit of timing, if you ask me). But yes, wraiths can get the benefit on turn A, move out of 12, charge, get locked in combat and have it for all of Turn A (yours and your opponents). At the start of Turn B, if you can move the Spyder back within 12 inches, then you are set for another whole turn. Way better than how I was playing it.

That's a pretty legit buff, though I am very sad that my other 2 Spyders will never be used again.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:

Klowny wrote:
I posted up in regards to the Canoptek buff.

Basically, if wraiths are locked in combat, and out of 12" of spyder at the start of the movement phase, yet after spyder movement, end up inside the 12", do they gain buff for rest of turn?

The rule says a buff is chosen at the start of the movement phase, and everything in the formation within 12" gets the buff, yet it doesn't stipulate if it only applies to things that are within 12 when the rule is chosen or not.

Spyder being outside 12 at the start of the movement phase but being within 12 is a very likely situation to happen, frequently.

The FAQ says that the effects last until the end of your next movement phase (which is a weird bit of timing, if you ask me). But yes, wraiths can get the benefit on turn A, move out of 12, charge, get locked in combat and have it for all of Turn A (yours and your opponents). At the start of Turn B, if you can move the Spyder back within 12 inches, then you are set for another whole turn. Way better than how I was playing it.

That's a pretty legit buff, though I am very sad that my other 2 Spyders will never be used again.

Run Three Canoptek Harvest! Just buy 4 more boxes of Wraiths... I'm sure you have another 18 Scarabs kicking around somewhere.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:

Klowny wrote:
I posted up in regards to the Canoptek buff.

Basically, if wraiths are locked in combat, and out of 12" of spyder at the start of the movement phase, yet after spyder movement, end up inside the 12", do they gain buff for rest of turn?

The rule says a buff is chosen at the start of the movement phase, and everything in the formation within 12" gets the buff, yet it doesn't stipulate if it only applies to things that are within 12 when the rule is chosen or not.

Spyder being outside 12 at the start of the movement phase but being within 12 is a very likely situation to happen, frequently.

The FAQ says that the effects last until the end of your next movement phase (which is a weird bit of timing, if you ask me). But yes, wraiths can get the benefit on turn A, move out of 12, charge, get locked in combat and have it for all of Turn A (yours and your opponents). At the start of Turn B, if you can move the Spyder back within 12 inches, then you are set for another whole turn. Way better than how I was playing it.

That's a pretty legit buff, though I am very sad that my other 2 Spyders will never be used again.

Honestly? I own nine Spyders and can't imagine myself ever using a Canoptek Harvest again.

It's completely useless for themed list building with one Spyder, relegated to only being any good for power builds where you spam minimum harvests for the buff.

Can't meaningfully scarab farm with one per turn after all.

 Anpu-adom wrote:

Run Three Canoptek Harvest! Just buy 4 more boxes of Wraiths... I'm sure you have another 18 Scarabs kicking around somewhere.

I mean, I do, and I want to, but I'm currently boycotting buying products from GW. Plus, I need to get my army more completed painting wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:

Honestly? I own nine Spyders and can't imagine myself ever using a Canoptek Harvest again.

It's completely useless for themed list building with one Spyder, relegated to only being any good for power builds where you spam minimum harvests for the buff.

Can't meaningfully scarab farm with one per turn after all.

I don't really care to scarab farm. When I run Harvests, I keep the scarabs out of LoS in cover, and just spawn 3-4 throughout the game and send them off when I need them to do something.

 krodarklorr wrote:

changemod wrote:

Honestly? I own nine Spyders and can't imagine myself ever using a Canoptek Harvest again.

It's completely useless for themed list building with one Spyder, relegated to only being any good for power builds where you spam minimum harvests for the buff.

Can't meaningfully scarab farm with one per turn after all.

I don't really care to scarab farm. When I run Harvests, I keep the scarabs out of LoS in cover, and just spawn 3-4 throughout the game and send them off when I need them to do something.

Yeah but like I said, I'm more interested in the Canoptek units themselves than the power of the formation bonus, and scarabs are uninteresting without the gimmick of spawning more. Especially now that they cost more, have a smaller base unit cap and entropic strike doesn't strip AV.

They're less spamable by default and lost their unique rule. All they have left from a fun perspective is getting expanded by a ton of Spyders.