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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You make a wraith unit killy by attaching some warscythes to it. You make it nigh indestructible by attaching Orikan.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Yeah, but Warscythes are killy by themselves, they don't need Wraiths.
Wraiths really excel at the catch-and-hold game.
If you want killy there are usually better options.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, but Warscythes are killy by themselves, they don't need Wraiths.
Wraiths really excel at the catch-and-hold game.
If you want killy there are usually better options.


Options that aren't fast enough or durable enough to make it into combat are not better options.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Why combat?
If you want things dead instead of just tied up, wouldn't shooting be the better option?
(don't get me wrong, though, I'm all for tying up instead of killing)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 04:48:24


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Necron shooting is mediocre at best.

Many units found in competitive lists can plow through an unsupported wraith unit (e.g. TWC, WK, IK, BT).

Hit & Run is a complete hard counter to the tarpit and shoot strategy.

Also, if you are playing ITC, then assault is more effective against invisibility than shooting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 07:12:44


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




col_impact wrote:
You make a wraith unit killy by attaching some warscythes to it. You make it nigh indestructible by attaching Orikan.


Destroyer Lord with Voidreaper for extreme killyness along with Orikan for nigh indestructiblality. My D Lord with Voidreaper is a thing of terrible destructive beauty. He was good with warscythe but when I started arming him with Voidreaper he took it to the next level. He can earn his points back in one assualt if he lands all his hits. Have yet to try him with Orikan but it seems like an awesome combo.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Wraiths and D-Lord I have no issue with.
Yeah, they slow him down a bit, what with them being fast and him being medium speed, but not by a huge amount.
But I'm not sure about them with Orikan.
Do you slingshot him? Or just slow them down to match his speed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 09:30:00


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





The Eternity Gate

Just to chime in but I'm really liking pairing wraiths with preatorians on a flank. The combo if speed, fearless, durability is just great. The preatorians AP2 really helps the wraiths in assault and the wraiths provide mobile cover on the way in.

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Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





The key with something like that would be making sure the Praets can get in range of the target at the same time as the Wraiths so they can shoot before the Wraiths charge (and then charge themselves).

The problem with something like this would be with that many points devoted to one combat you're not going to be able to handle many units. Like, yeah, against something like a deathstar they're going to be good, but against a list with multiple threats... I don't have a lot of faith.

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 skoffs wrote:
The key with something like that would be making sure the Praets can get in range of the target at the same time as the Wraiths so they can shoot before the Wraiths charge (and then charge themselves).

The problem with something like this would be with that many points devoted to one combat you're not going to be able to handle many units. Like, yeah, against something like a deathstar they're going to be good, but against a list with multiple threats... I don't have a lot of faith.


So, if it comes to MSU, split them up. Praetorians are not helpless on their own. They always perform well for me.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 krodarklorr wrote:
Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.


Necron shooting is decidedly mediocre if you compare it to armies that are actually good at shooting. Eldar, Tau, Space Marines (of most varieties), Guard, and Renegades leave us in the dust. As do stupid things like 3-5 IK forces.

We're not bottom of the barrel, but we're definitely middle of the pack and shouldn't ever expect to table people with our guns unless they're playing something really bad.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






South Dakota

Necron shooting has always underwhelmed me. Limited range on all except a very few (poor) weapons. Prior to this codex, Necron assault has also sucked. At least now we do have some good assault units and Reanimation Protocols that show we can outlast in most assaults.

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My Project Blog: Necrons, Orks, Sisters, Blood Angels, and X-Wing
"
"One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas, I'll never know." Groucho Marx
~A grammatically correct sentence can have multiple, valid interpretations.
Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate. 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

Requizen wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.


Necron shooting is decidedly mediocre if you compare it to armies that are actually good at shooting. Eldar, Tau, Space Marines (of most varieties), Guard, and Renegades leave us in the dust. As do stupid things like 3-5 IK forces.

We're not bottom of the barrel, but we're definitely middle of the pack and shouldn't ever expect to table people with our guns unless they're playing something really bad.


You're saying Knights have better shooting than crons? Umm, whut.

Also, I disagree that Space Marines have better shooting. They have Grav Cents, that's about it. Everything else is meh.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 skoffs wrote:
Wraiths and D-Lord I have no issue with.
Yeah, they slow him down a bit, what with them being fast and him being medium speed, but not by a huge amount.
But I'm not sure about them with Orikan.
Do you slingshot him? Or just slow them down to match his speed?


Well let's consider how Orikan works. He only grants re-rolls if the unit has RP. They only way Wraiths get RP is in a Canoptek Harvest. They Spider only moves 6" + Run. Just like Orikan
So for the first few turns, you are conga lining the unit to stay in coherency with Orikan, but that also keeps you within range of the Spider so that you don't accidentally move out of range and can't reactivate RP in the next turn.

Of course, the opponent just needs to kill the Spider and wait a turn to shoot down the Wraiths, but to guarantees 1-2 turns of nigh invincibility for the Wraiths who are now where they need to be.

-

   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 krodarklorr wrote:
Requizen wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.


Necron shooting is decidedly mediocre if you compare it to armies that are actually good at shooting. Eldar, Tau, Space Marines (of most varieties), Guard, and Renegades leave us in the dust. As do stupid things like 3-5 IK forces.

We're not bottom of the barrel, but we're definitely middle of the pack and shouldn't ever expect to table people with our guns unless they're playing something really bad.


You're saying Knights have better shooting than crons? Umm, whut.

Also, I disagree that Space Marines have better shooting. They have Grav Cents, that's about it. Everything else is meh.

The Knight Crusader already is an as good if not better firebase than anything we have if it goes Avenger Gatling + Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, and if you branch out into FW (which you should if you're running an IK army) the Knight Castigator and Knight Acheron put out enough AP3 shots to make one blush. And they're on more durable bases than Destroyers against anything that's not Drop Pod Meltas.

Space Marine shooting makes Necrons look pale in comparison. We have better versions of their bolters, but we have nothing at all in our book that can compare to the amount of Grav they can put on everything. Grav Cents are good as you say, but they also have Grav Bikers (5 of them in the Command Squad will ruin armies in a couple turns with IC support) and Grav Devs (take them in the Skyhammer formation and watch them come out of Pods with Relentless and remove a unit on T1 or T2). Drop Pod Meltas is nothing our army can match, Gauss is a neat tool but it's nothing compared to the ability to drop in a handful of Meltaguns around a Knight and turn it into slag in a single turn (not as uncommon as you might think). Not to mention, again, if you jump into FW you have access to the absolutely insane Fire Raptor and the pretty darn good Contemptor Dread. And that's not even talking about TFCs being one of the best Artillery pieces in the game, especially if you slap Tiggy into the list.

Just because most SM players are running Wolfstars and Libby Conclaves doesn't mean their guns are ineffective.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Galef wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
Wraiths and D-Lord I have no issue with.
Yeah, they slow him down a bit, what with them being fast and him being medium speed, but not by a huge amount.
But I'm not sure about them with Orikan.
Do you slingshot him? Or just slow them down to match his speed?


Well let's consider how Orikan works. He only grants re-rolls if the unit has RP. They only way Wraiths get RP is in a Canoptek Harvest. They Spider only moves 6" + Run. Just like Orikan
So for the first few turns, you are conga lining the unit to stay in coherency with Orikan, but that also keeps you within range of the Spider so that you don't accidentally move out of range and can't reactivate RP in the next turn.

Of course, the opponent just needs to kill the Spider and wait a turn to shoot down the Wraiths, but to guarantees 1-2 turns of nigh invincibility for the Wraiths who are now where they need to be.

-


Actually Orikan Grants rerolls to saving throws of one, not reanimation protocols of one. So the wraiths will be rerolling all invuln saves of one. Since RP isn't a saving throw, you can't use Orikan to reroll RP, but if the warlord is in or nearby the unit, they will get that too.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:

Actually Orikan Grants rerolls to saving throws of one, not reanimation protocols of one. So the wraiths will be rerolling all invuln saves of one. Since RP isn't a saving throw, you can't use Orikan to reroll RP, but if the warlord is in or nearby the unit, they will get that too.


Incorrect. The Overlord grants rerolls of 1 to RP rolls to units from the Reclamation Legion formation only.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





To get Wraiths, a Destroyer Lord AND Orikan into one unit you're looking at a minimum of 1430 points (Rec.Legion + Harvest + D.Cult + Royal Court), and that's all completely naked, just to get the units required on the table in a Decurion. After actually buffing the models involved in that one deathstar up to make them effective, you're not going to have many points left over to pad out the rest of your army.
Yes, you'll have a Destroyer Cult, so you'll at least have some useful tools at your disposal... but will it be fleshed out enough to handle a competitive list? I wouldn't bet on it.
I still feel like Necron deathstars might be fun but aren't our best competitive builds. YMMV.

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 skoffs wrote:
To get Wraiths, a Destroyer Lord AND Orikan into one unit you're looking at a minimum of 1430 points (Rec.Legion + Harvest + D.Cult + Royal Court), and that's all completely naked, just to get the units required on the table in a Decurion. After actually buffing the models involved in that one deathstar up to make them effective, you're not going to have many points left over to pad out the rest of your army.
Yes, you'll have a Destroyer Cult, so you'll at least have some useful tools at your disposal... but will it be fleshed out enough to handle a competitive list? I wouldn't bet on it.
I still feel like Necron deathstars might be fun but aren't our best competitive builds. YMMV.


Wraithstars have had good results at tournaments, but it's hard to pilot and (imo) not that fun.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





What variety of Wraith-star?
Orikan led?
Seems very cost prohibitive.
And is the Wraith-star itself the main focus of the list, or do they have other things working in conjunction with?
I'm just saying, the one suggested seems a little too "all the eggs in one basket"

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

You can actually have all of our fun units in a single 1850 list, I don't know how well it will perform, since sacrifices had to be made (like an overlord with a SoL hiding in a group of warriors), but for a giggle it might be a fun list to try:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/700561.page#8860314

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard




 skoffs wrote:
What variety of Wraith-star?
Orikan led?
Seems very cost prohibitive.
And is the Wraith-star itself the main focus of the list, or do they have other things working in conjunction with?
I'm just saying, the one suggested seems a little too "all the eggs in one basket"


I don't remember the exact list, I think it was BAO though. Pretty sure it was DCult/Harvest/Court Decurion. Not my favorite list, but eh, it works for some people.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:


Actually Orikan Grants rerolls to saving throws of one, not reanimation protocols of one. So the wraiths will be rerolling all invuln saves of one.

Yes I am aware that Orikan grants saving throw re-rolls of '1', but I thought this particular rule only applied to "models with RP". I don't have my codex to check right now, so I might be misremembering.

So in a unit of Wraith, the rule would no longer allow them to re-roll 1's for their 3++ on any turn that they did not start within range of their Formation's Spider.

-

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 skoffs wrote:
What variety of Wraith-star?
Orikan led?
Seems very cost prohibitive.
And is the Wraith-star itself the main focus of the list, or do they have other things working in conjunction with?
I'm just saying, the one suggested seems a little too "all the eggs in one basket"

The highest placing Necron list at LVO 2016 had an Orikan/Royal Court Wraithstar. http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alex-Fennell-5th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 18:43:55


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 skoffs wrote:
Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

Wraiths have a 3++ and the Destroyer Lord has a 2+. I can understand it as a way to save points but it would still make me nervous!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 skoffs wrote:
Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

Wraiths have a 3++ and the Destroyer Lord has a 2+. I can understand it as a way to save points but it would still make me nervous!

Yeah the Overlord is clearly meant to LOS any wounds. There are enough characters in this unit that you can use something cheap to challenge so that the Overlord can always chop at the unit instead of wasting attacks on the enemy's tank character

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/25 19:12:32


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 skoffs wrote:
Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

Don't know of any battle reports but here is an interview with the guy who played the list: (note he talks more about the meta than the list itself) https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/04/05/40k-list-tech-crons-and-controversy/ He does mention that he wishes he had put a veil of Darkness in the wraithstar. Also check out Joe Comacho's list underneath that, he must be an absolutely fantastic general, because he plays with a really interesting out of the box list, and placed 7th.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Fredericksburg, Virginia

 Grimgold wrote:
You can actually have all of our fun units in a single 1850 list, I don't know how well it will perform, since sacrifices had to be made (like an overlord with a SoL hiding in a group of warriors), but for a giggle it might be a fun list to try:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/700561.page#8860314


I took a similar list to NOVA OPEN tournament last year.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/659876.page

The main problem I had was against MSU objective secured spam. But it performed well enough, placing in the top 20ish of 250 if I remember right.

Cramming all 3 of those formations into 1850 doesn't leave much room to change the list. The only difference between our list is instead of taking Heavy Destroyers and Zhandrekh, you chose to take 3 more Wraiths and downgrading Zhandrekh to a normal Overlord. I found Zhandrekh's resilience and ability to take the 'reroll 1s when shooting' trait and 'fearless' trait to be very useful. One of my games was won because he attached himself to the unit of Scarabs and stood in front to tank a full round of Scatter Lasers, robbing my opponent an objective that he would have easily stolen with objective secured if any of my scarabs died.

In hindsight, the Stalker was bad. It's a huge tax and it died every game before getting a chance to do anything. I would ditch the Battalion in favor of more larger Destroyer units (at least 1 per unit so they can wipe a 5man of Space Marines) and either another Harvest or Flayed Ones to tie up units while Destroyers do the heavy lifting. The Praetorians performed great, and were a star in each match, but their tax is just too high.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/25 19:47:39


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