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You know the game is good when infantry are tankier than tanks

 skoffs wrote:
Why give your opponent's anti-AV something to shoot at when you could spend those points on more of our superior infantry.

Because how else are the Warriors going to get anywhere and contribute to the game?

Greetings, I come to this thread with a tactical question. How does everybody deal with Wraithknights?

 necr0n wrote:
Greetings, I come to this thread with a tactical question. How does everybody deal with Wraithknights?

Hahaha



Attempt to tie them up (not often viable thanks to stomp) or ignore them as best you can, then go after the other stuff on the table. Unless you're running a Deathstar of some sort that can instagib it... Unless it gets Invis.

People will say Deathmarks but you need like 20 of them landing in Rapid Fire range to have even odds of maybe killing it in one round of shooting.

Requizen wrote:
People will say Deathmarks but you need like 20 of them landing in Rapid Fire range to have even odds of maybe killing it in one round of shooting.

Your odds increase if you deep strike a Destroyer Lord with them.

Requizen wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
Greetings, I come to this thread with a tactical question. How does everybody deal with Wraithknights?

Hahaha



Attempt to tie them up (not often viable thanks to stomp) or ignore them as best you can, then go after the other stuff on the table. Unless you're running a Deathstar of some sort that can instagib it... Unless it gets Invis.

People will say Deathmarks but you need like 20 of them landing in Rapid Fire range to have even odds of maybe killing it in one round of shooting.

Ignoring them is not as easy, because they can move super fast and ignore terrain. Plus, they eat up all our infantry in close combat denying all sorts of RPs and just rendering all Decurion rules useless.

Tarpit is a good idea, but sometimes it's easier said than done, as I already mentioned he's fast, while my Lychguard for example are slow. Then again, he might eat everyone up in close combat anyway.

I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

 necr0n wrote:
I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

... you do know what makes Deathmarks so special, right?

 skoffs wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

... you do know what makes Deathmarks so special, right?

I was under the impression, they were not allowed the 2+ rule because of the Gargantuan Creature rule.

I think the 2+ still applies since its codex specific, and thus overrides core rules, but I'm not entirely sure.

 necr0n wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
Greetings, I come to this thread with a tactical question. How does everybody deal with Wraithknights?

Hahaha



Attempt to tie them up (not often viable thanks to stomp) or ignore them as best you can, then go after the other stuff on the table. Unless you're running a Deathstar of some sort that can instagib it... Unless it gets Invis.

People will say Deathmarks but you need like 20 of them landing in Rapid Fire range to have even odds of maybe killing it in one round of shooting.

Ignoring them is not as easy, because they can move super fast and ignore terrain. Plus, they eat up all our infantry in close combat denying all sorts of RPs and just rendering all Decurion rules useless.

Tarpit is a good idea, but sometimes it's easier said than done, as I already mentioned he's fast, while my Lychguard for example are slow. Then again, he might eat everyone up in close combat anyway.

I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

Yeah, preaching to the choir here. WKs are stupid. Your best bet is just to realize that even though you're Necrons, you'll probably get tabled and just try to go for points.

DL+harvest wraiths+kitted out RC will kill a WK in 2 rounds of combat. I've done it and I'm not that competitive a player. Of course the Eldar player has to let you get near his WK to begin with The cult could also put the hurt on one with all of the rerolling to wound ap3 pain.

 necron99 wrote:
DL+harvest wraiths+kitted out RC will kill a WK in 2 rounds of combat. I've done it and I'm not that competitive a player. Of course the Eldar player has to let you get near his WK to begin with The cult could also put the hurt on one with all of the rerolling to wound ap3 pain.

DL (assuming Cult) + Harvest + kitted out RC is basically your entire army as well. If your super death star never gets close enough to charge anything until T3 or T4 (WK, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes... yeah more likely than you think) then you basically have lost anyway.

It's what a reasonable amount of high level players are running but even they are moving away from it. Or at least, you don't see it at top tables much anymore.

 necr0n wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

... you do know what makes Deathmarks so special, right?

I was under the impression, they were not allowed the 2+ rule because of the Gargantuan Creature rule.

They get the 2+ to wound when the deathmarks deepstrike. The gargantuan creature rule applies to the sniper rule. Here is the average damage to a wraith knight with a unit of 10 deathmarks+ D.lord in the group (assuming rapid fire range).

On average
20 shots hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1s
2/3 of 20 is 13.2 with 6.8 misses 3.4 being 1s with re-roll is 2.24 more hits after re-roll
15.44 hits wounding on 2+ with re-roll 1s
5/6 of 15.44 is 12.8152 with 2.62 misses 1.31 being 1s with re-roll is 1.09 more wounds after re-roll.
14.13 wounds with 1/6 of them being ap 2 is 2.26 that go through armor.
Wraithknights have a 3+ armor save so 2/3 of 11.87 is 7.83, 4.04 wounds get through armor + 2.26 = 6.3 unsaved wounds
FNP turns 6.3 into 4.22 wounds
Staff of light might get an extra wound
This won't kill it on average but it is very close to bringing it down in a single round for less points.

The question then is,
What do you give the Destroyer Lord in this squad?
- keep him with the Staff Of Light? (AP3 might do a wound)
- just give him a Warscythe? (he'd only be able to use it the turn after)
- give him the Void Reaper? (same as above, but with much better chance to wound)
- how about the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator? (added to a Warscythe could do a wound the turn the unit drops, if they're close enough)
- perhaps the Solar Staff? (a blind Wraithknight?)

 skoffs wrote:
The question then is,
What do you give the Destroyer Lord in this squad?
- keep him with the Staff Of Light? (AP3 might do a wound)
- just give him a Warscythe? (he'd only be able to use it the turn after)
- give him the Void Reaper? (same as above, but with much better chance to wound)
- how about the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator? (added to a Warscythe could do a wound the turn the unit drops, if they're close enough)
- perhaps the Solar Staff? (a blind Wraithknight?)

I've had a good laugh of getting the blind effect off on the wraithknight with a solar staff but don't forget another thing that the solar staff can do and that is make all shooting attacks at the deathmark unit snapshots. A pretty solid way of keeping enough of them around to either finish off the wraithknight or do backline harassing for another turn.

Could also just leave him naked to free up points if needed.

A naked Destroyer Lord?
That sounds incredibly wasteful for one of the best HQs we have at our disposal...

The Destroyer Lord is too expensive to keep naked, and it isn't like it costs a lot of points to give him desirable upgrades.

How about to integrate an Imperial Knight in a Necron army?
Any experience? If so, what kind of Knight? I'd prefer the Crusader, the only one who comes with two heavy weapons.

You'd need to do a Chaos one.

Oberron wrote:

 necr0n wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

... you do know what makes Deathmarks so special, right?

I was under the impression, they were not allowed the 2+ rule because of the Gargantuan Creature rule.

They get the 2+ to wound when the deathmarks deepstrike. The gargantuan creature rule applies to the sniper rule. Here is the average damage to a wraith knight with a unit of 10 deathmarks+ D.lord in the group (assuming rapid fire range).

On average
20 shots hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1s
2/3 of 20 is 13.2 with 6.8 misses 3.4 being 1s with re-roll is 2.24 more hits after re-roll
15.44 hits wounding on 2+ with re-roll 1s
5/6 of 15.44 is 12.8152 with 2.62 misses 1.31 being 1s with re-roll is 1.09 more wounds after re-roll.
14.13 wounds with 1/6 of them being ap 2 is 2.26 that go through armor.
Wraithknights have a 3+ armor save so 2/3 of 11.87 is 7.83, 4.04 wounds get through armor + 2.26 = 6.3 unsaved wounds
FNP turns 6.3 into 4.22 wounds
Staff of light might get an extra wound
This won't kill it on average but it is very close to bringing it down in a single round for less points.

You left out the 5++ invul save that they almost always have. so the 2.26 that go through armor become 1.51 that get past the invul save.

col_impact wrote:

Oberron wrote:

 necr0n wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
I struggle to understand the point about the Deathmarks, however. How would 40 sniper shots bring down a Gargantuan Creatuce that did not deepstrike that turn?( I mean, I don't see a Wraithknight ever wanting to deepstrike) They would cause 2 wounds max, the way I see it.

... you do know what makes Deathmarks so special, right?

I was under the impression, they were not allowed the 2+ rule because of the Gargantuan Creature rule.

They get the 2+ to wound when the deathmarks deepstrike. The gargantuan creature rule applies to the sniper rule. Here is the average damage to a wraith knight with a unit of 10 deathmarks+ D.lord in the group (assuming rapid fire range).

On average
20 shots hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1s
2/3 of 20 is 13.2 with 6.8 misses 3.4 being 1s with re-roll is 2.24 more hits after re-roll
15.44 hits wounding on 2+ with re-roll 1s
5/6 of 15.44 is 12.8152 with 2.62 misses 1.31 being 1s with re-roll is 1.09 more wounds after re-roll.
14.13 wounds with 1/6 of them being ap 2 is 2.26 that go through armor.
Wraithknights have a 3+ armor save so 2/3 of 11.87 is 7.83, 4.04 wounds get through armor + 2.26 = 6.3 unsaved wounds
FNP turns 6.3 into 4.22 wounds
Staff of light might get an extra wound
This won't kill it on average but it is very close to bringing it down in a single round for less points.

You left out the 5++ invul save that they almost always have. so the 2.26 that go through armor become 1.51 that get past the invul save.

I rarely see them with the 5++ so I was just doing the basic stats but with the 5++ in mind the range goes from 3.67-4.22 depending on what the wraithknight has which is still on average more than half its health in a single shooting round by a single unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Destroyer Lord is too expensive to keep naked, and it isn't like it costs a lot of points to give him desirable upgrades.

I tried a weird thing last night:

Gave the destroyer lord the usual melee upgrades (warscythe, nightmare shroud, sempiternal weave) and put him in DS reserve with the Deathmarks. Reading Ethereal Interception, it seems the RAW allow the whole unit to "counter-Deep Strike" if an enemy arrives via DS, etc.... including the DLord? Then you get a minimal jet pack move (keeping coherency) during assault step.

Then on your turn during movement, you can split him off and go melee hunting. Seem right?

sieGermans wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Destroyer Lord is too expensive to keep naked, and it isn't like it costs a lot of points to give him desirable upgrades.

I tried a weird thing last night:

Gave the destroyer lord the usual melee upgrades (warscythe, nightmare shroud, sempiternal weave) and put him in DS reserve with the Deathmarks. Reading Ethereal Interception, it seems the RAW allow the whole unit to "counter-Deep Strike" if an enemy arrives via DS, etc.... including the DLord? Then you get a minimal jet pack move (keeping coherency) during assault step.

Then on your turn during movement, you can split him off and go melee hunting. Seem right?

Nope. The DLord doesn't get Ethereal Interception just from being attached to a unit of Deathmarks

The BRB FAQ clarified that the abilities of unit special rules do not confer to attached ICs, unless there is specific wording that would confer the ability, e.g. "a unit that contains at least one model with [Ethereal Interception]."

Nightbringer if you are lucky, one bad roll on gaze of death and it's a done deal. He also has fleshbane, and eternal warrior, so if he is kitted for ranged D instead of melee d, nightbringer can do some work on him in CC.

Judicators might also get some work done if you can keep the stalker alive for target designation, 8 out of 9 hit, 11 out of 36 wound at ap 2 so he has his 5+ invul if kitted for melee and a 5+ FNP. it's about .27 wounds per Preat, so at a min formation 2.7 before saves, and the stalker can put another (8/9 * 8/9) .79 itself if equipped with heavy gauss.

Most people use their D-Cult for this though, Extermination protocols + preferred enemy and AP 3 does work. 7/9 chance to hit, 11/36 wound, for .23 wound per shot, 18 shots per round 4.27 for all 9 of them shooting at the wraith knight. Honestly though your heavy destroyers do their best work here, 7/9 chance to hit adn 8/9 chance to wound, for .69 wounds per shot or 2 wounds for all three shooting. So a d cults shooting for one round has a decent chance of dropping a wraith knight.

If you run both a Judicator Battalion and a D-Cult odds are you have enough shooting to drop it. But that's a filthy lie because not even eldar players (who have had several editions of autopilot wins that they got to call skill) are thick enough to deploy a wraith knight without support. There will be a farseer on a jetbike near by, and possibly some warlocks to keep you from focusing down the farseer to quickly. With Invis (which he has a 73% chance of having before reroll power shenanigans), you just don't bother shooting at the wraithknight and instead focus your efforts on getting rid of the far seer. Of course it's not like his army will be standing near by leaning on shovels while you are doing this, they will inflicting a lot of damage on you while you try to focus down their big gun.

So the question becomes what to do in that case, and the answer is, just ignore him, you can't kill him and he has a limited number of people he can kill, so you just pay the butchers bill and focus on the rest of his army. He's fast so you'll have to be careful to make sure he doesn't get anything valuable, as long as you can feed the wraithknight warriors, immortals and maybe a harvest, you can still win if you crump the rest of his army.

If you know the opponent is running MCs or GMCs (ie Wraithknight) then Wraiths equipped with Beamers and an OLord/Dlord equipped with the Voidreaper also boosts the damage output significantly.

I'm all about Beamers on Wraiths simply because they'll be Relentless and it helps with the main weakness of the army.

The math on it is so so, beamers give you a 1/6 chance of ID which is a D3 wounds on a GMC, call it two, 2/3 chance to hit 1/6 chance of an average of two wounds, so 1 in 9 shots will cause two wounds or 4.5 shots to a wound. So about half as effective as a destroyers gauss weapon per round. Whip coils are much better because they allow you to strike simo which could get you an extra 3-8 attacks.

 wuestenfux wrote:
How about to integrate an Imperial Knight in a Necron army?
Any experience? If so, what kind of Knight? I'd prefer the Crusader, the only one who comes with two heavy weapons.

Staying bound you would use a Renegade Knight Forsworn Detachment.

My ideal one would be equipped as follows:

Carapace: Twin Linked Icarus Autocannon
Right arm: Avenger Gatling Cannon/Heavy Flamer
Left arm: Rapid-fire Battle cannon/Heavy stubber
Chest: Heavy Stubber

Keep him back and shooting. Anything gets close you can mess around with melee/stomps, but shooting is what this one does best.

Draco765 wrote:
Keep him back and shooting. Anything gets close you can mess around with melee/stomps, but shooting is what this one does best.

But would his shooting be more effective than our shooting for similar price?

 Grimgold wrote:
The math on it is so so, beamers give you a 1/6 chance of ID which is a D3 wounds on a GMC, call it two, 2/3 chance to hit 1/6 chance of an average of two wounds, so 1 in 9 shots will cause two wounds or 4.5 shots to a wound. So about half as effective as a destroyers gauss weapon per round. Whip coils are much better because they allow you to strike simo which could get you an extra 3-8 attacks.

I think they are better than whip coils. Whip coils are seldom if ever relevant to the tough as nails Wraiths who will almost always get their first round of attacks in. I only run Wraiths naked or with Beamers.

Against a GMC with T8 the Beamers double the damage output of the Wraiths for the fist turn. With support from a D Cult, a D Lord, and a Royal Court you can wipe a Wraithknight in 1 turn before Stomps.

Against MCs without Eternal Warrior the Beamers truly shine due to ID and circumventing FNP. Demons, Spacewolves, and Tau are in the competition scene and have juicy targets.

They also give a Necron list an answer to troops with 2+ armour. AP2 shooting is hard to come by in the Necron offerings.

The main reason for not running Beamers by default is that they are overcosted in key matchups such as vs Gladius and most often you are running Wraiths tactically as strict tarpitters. Beamers work best on a fully-decked Wraithstar unit with a Veil for jumping out of combats that aren't going your way. Wraithstars work by having lots of 'tricks' (eg Solar Staff, Veil, Orikan re-roll, PE, Zandrekh trait, NS leadership attack, Res Orb) and packing guns that have AP2 and ID is another trick in your bag.