Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sigh. Again, please show where Blasts and rerolls gives two hoots about whether you Reroll all failed, failed on a one, or all to hit rolls of a two every second Thursday.

The actual rule states no conditions on the to hit. Just that you have the"ability" tore roll. Indisputably PE grants an ability to Reroll

Your last query is telling of your attitude.

RedEyeJedi, did you have a look at this?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why does reroll failed to hit rolls matter? What makes failed to hit an acceptable criteria but not 1s?

Because does the PE say that you can re-roll failed hits in general, or just 1's?

It specifically says, 1's. You guys are taking it upon yourselfes and stating that Blasts are an exception to this... if the rule said 'however this is not the case for blasts etc' there wouldn't be a problem... but it doesn't mention blasts.

I'll try and put it another way for you, which might help. Let's have 3 almost imaginary situations:

1) Your model has the ability to re-roll any roll To Hit, whether it hit or missed.
2) Your model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls that did not Hit (Prescience, and other rules).
3) Your model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 that did not Hit (PE).

Per the Blast rule, it is clear the 1) is allowed: "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit"

You are however claiming that 2) is also possible? But it's not just "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit", it is now "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit that did not Hit".
You are then claiming that 3) is not possible? But it's not just "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit" either, it is now "has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit of 1 that did not Hit".

The only reason prescience is an example is because it has the same wording as PE but is not as specific. Allow one and you allow the other.

Again you've refused to tell us why you think rerolling all FAILED to hits is important. Why does "failed To Hit" rolls trigger blasts and rerolls when you can never have a "failed To Hit" for blasts?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Wow, how is that an irrelevant thing? How is that a claim I know to be false? It's literally the ONLY thing that the PE rule states, yet you STILL assume it means any failed to hit can be re-rolled.

It is irrelevant because my question wasn't about how PE works. Do you even understand English? Then the lie again. Stop lying no one has ever stated that PE means you can reroll any failed to hit rolls.

As stated above, the Blast and Re-Rolls rule does not state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to-hit; that would be very contradictory to the Blast rule which clearly states this. It does however state that should your model have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it can use this ability here. PE does not have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it simply does not. Otherwise would you accept a re-roll of 2 when firing with a non blast weapon? Of course you wouldn't. Because it's not ALL hits, it's 1's

So we agree that the blast weapon roll is not a roll to hit. So why does the trigger "failed To Hit" work? Is the trigger irrelevant due to the blast weapons not being a To Hit roll?

Firstly, yes we do agree that it's not a roll to hit, which comes with my second point; that the PE ability allows to hit rolls of 1 to be re-rolled, but the blast isn't a roll to hit so how is this possible?

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here. PE doesn't have this. It has to-hits of 1.

No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. Again, please show where Blasts and rerolls gives two hoots about whether you Reroll all failed, failed on a one, or all to hit rolls of a two every second Thursday.

The actual rule states no conditions on the to hit. Just that you have the"ability" tore roll. Indisputably PE grants an ability to Reroll

Your last query is telling of your attitude.

No, the rules states 'If a model has to ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit'. Does PE have this?

If a friend asked you to explain the PE rule would you say that or would say specifically rolls of 1?

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. Again, please show where Blasts and rerolls gives two hoots about whether you Reroll all failed, failed on a one, or all to hit rolls of a two every second Thursday.

The actual rule states no conditions on the to hit. Just that you have the"ability" tore roll. Indisputably PE grants an ability to Reroll

Your last query is telling of your attitude.

No, the rules states 'If a model has to ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit'. Does PE have this?

If a friend asked you to explain the PE rule would you say that or would say specifically rolls of 1?

Yes, it has an ability to Reroll its rolls to hit. If I was asked if it has a specific qualified Reroll I would a
Explain it.

In context of the debate though the first is sufficient to prove that it triggers the blasts and rerolls rule. Proven, again.

Now, do you have anything to prove your assertion? Or to explain why all failed somehow allows a Reroll, when failed of a one doesn't? Given the actual rule doesn't even mention the weird faile?

It's ok to admit youre in error,

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

The word failed is in the PE rule, I'm not quoting it again.

It isn't in the blast and Reroll rule.

That doesn't care about "failed" , so why are you stating it does?

 FlingitNow wrote:

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

Yet another tangent. Why on earth would somebody re-roll a successful hit?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Where inside that rule does it state that "We don't mind if you have the ability to re-roll all failed to hits or just rolls of 1" it doesn't! The PE isn't a re-roll of all failed to hits, you can't just take this rule as decide the PE rule applies here.

RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Wow, how is that an irrelevant thing? How is that a claim I know to be false? It's literally the ONLY thing that the PE rule states, yet you STILL assume it means any failed to hit can be re-rolled.

It is irrelevant because my question wasn't about how PE works. Do you even understand English? Then the lie again. Stop lying no one has ever stated that PE means you can reroll any failed to hit rolls.

As stated above, the Blast and Re-Rolls rule does not state that a Blast Weapon is a roll to-hit; that would be very contradictory to the Blast rule which clearly states this. It does however state that should your model have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it can use this ability here. PE does not have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls, it simply does not. Otherwise would you accept a re-roll of 2 when firing with a non blast weapon? Of course you wouldn't. Because it's not ALL hits, it's 1's

So we agree that the blast weapon roll is not a roll to hit. So why does the trigger "failed To Hit" work? Is the trigger irrelevant due to the blast weapons not being a To Hit roll?

Firstly, yes we do agree that it's not a roll to hit, which comes with my second point; that the PE ability allows to hit rolls of 1 to be re-rolled, but the blast isn't a roll to hit so how is this possible?

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here. PE doesn't have this. It has to-hits of 1.

RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

The word failed is in the PE rule, I'm not quoting it again.

You were not talking about the PE rule , do not lie

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, that's you getting the rule wrong. The rule doesn't mention failed anywhere.

Serious query - have you read, accurately, the quoted rule? If so, can you please point out where "failed" is used? Page and graph.

The word failed is in the PE rule, I'm not quoting it again.

Do you have a rules quote to support this claim:

RedEyeJedi21 wrote: What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

Again I want you to highlight the part that says "failed To Hit roll".

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

Yet another tangent. Why on earth would somebody re-roll a successful hit?

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Where inside that rule does it state that "We don't mind if you have the ability to re-roll all failed to hits or just rolls of 1" it doesn't! The PE isn't a re-roll of all failed to hits, you can't just take this rule as decide the PE rule applies here.

It's not a tangent.

Thank you for proving you are not using actual rules, just your made up version of what you think they say

The actual rule places NO CONDITIONS on the rerolls. You are placing a condition. You are therefor in error.

I'm not trying to cover it up I can see what I said and yous are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm speaking AS if somebody would not choose to re-roll a successful hit.

Correction: The rule states that if you have the ability to re-roll rolls to-hit. ...not failed guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not placing a condition. It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the PE rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only rolls of 1!

Ok, now you've admitted an error, can you now point out where, in the Blasts and Reroll rule, it mentions needing any specific drpegree of ability to Reroll?

If I ask you "do you have the ability to throw a ball?" And you say "only 29 metres" , could you not simply have said "yes"?

I didn't ask HOW FAR you can throw a ball, did I?

So why do you assert - despite evidence to the contrary - that the blast and Reroll rule DOES place a condition?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here.

What rule states this. Please quote it and highlight the part that says reroll failed To Hit rolls please.

Yet another tangent. Why on earth would somebody re-roll a successful hit?

Because they want to miss? Why does that matter. Asking you to support a claim you have made is not a tangent asking irrelevant questions about why someone wants to do something is.

Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6."

Where inside that rule does it state that "We don't mind if you have the ability to re-roll all failed to hits or just rolls of 1" it doesn't! The PE isn't a re-roll of all failed to hits, you can't just take this rule as decide the PE rule applies here.

Where in that rule does it say rerolling failed To Hit rolls? Highlight it for me. Or were you lying when you said "What the rule states is that if a model in particular had the ability to re-roll it's failed to-hits (Even though the blast isn't to-hit) it may use this ability here."

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

I'm not placing a condition. It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the PE rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only rolls of 1!

Can you read my last post? It describes the current situation and might help?

I'm not placing a condition. It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the PE rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only rolls of 1!

So an ability that allowed you to reroll failed to hit rolls also wouldn't trigger that rule correct?

It says that if my model has the ability to re-roll my rolls to-hit.

It's a yes or no answer, there is no if or but about it.

Does the rule allow to to re-roll all failed to hits? NO!

Only failed To Hits.

Usually no. But because the rule has made an exception to this by stating that 'if a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit' this can be used here. The PE rule isn't a re-roll of to hit rolls in general, it's a re-roll of failed 1 hits.

So only Twin-Linked works, as all other rules require ether a failed 1 or just a failed Hit right?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
Usually no. But because the rule has made an exception to this by stating that 'if a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls to hit' this can be used here. The PE rule isn't a re-roll of to hit rolls in general, it's a re-roll of failed 1 hits.

It doesn't say failed To Hits though so why does that trigger the rule? Is the qualifier "failed" irrelevant?

It would trigger the rule for this reason: If I asked you to give me an example of a rule where you can re-roll your rolls to hit, would you say PE? I would imagine no, as PE doesn't give you this ability. It gives you the ability to re-roll failed 1's

So, RedEyeJedi21, as (hopefully) it is clear now that this is an "all or nothing" situation, and that i do believe, as you do, that PE does not grant the "ability to re-roll" until a 1 is rolled, just like other re-rolls granted by "misses" need you to "miss" before you can get the ability, i will continue answering the following:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they have an ability. That the ability has a condition is irrelevant.

Proven, over and over again.

They only have said "ability" once a dice is rolled and the result can be ascertained.

The "proven" above should be replaced with "stated". You have no proof of this past "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit" from Blast rules.
You also believe BS6+ grants you said ability?
Even though that rule is even clearer than PE?

"it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."


Clearly a "1" must be rolled before the re-roll is "gained".

Do you have that reroll before you roll a 1? No.
Do you have the ability to reroll before you roll a 1? No.

You will notice that i am quoting rules support again, even though we are repeating the debate. This is both for the new users and because saying "I've proved it X times before" really does not help while debating. I hope this is understood for further participation.

It does give you the ability to reroll, but there is a condition to it. Just like a rule that gave you the ability to reroll all failed to hit rolls gives you the ability, but again with a condition.

Show why this condition does not have to be met:

"Failed To Hit roll"

But this condition does:

"To Hit roll of 1"

To help your understanding think about this: let's assume I am Bs 4. Answer the following 3 questions for each example.

1) If I have the ability to reroll to hit can I re roll the dice?
2) If I have the ability to reroll all failed Hits can I reroll the dice?
3) If I have PE can I reroll the dice?

Note these questions are about can not whether you'd want to or not:

A) Say I roll a 1?
B) I roll a 2?
C) I roll a 6?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackTals check out the near identical wording for Gets Hot and blasts and note the examples it gives.

 BlackTalos wrote:

You will notice that i am quoting rules support again, even though we are repeating the debate. This is both for the new users and because saying "I've proved it X times before" really does not help while debating. I hope this is understood for further participation.

And again, this makes the Blast rule completely irrelevant - as in it does nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:
It would trigger the rule for this reason: If I asked you to give me an example of a rule where you can re-roll your rolls to hit, would you say PE? I would imagine no, as PE doesn't give you this ability. It gives you the ability to re-roll failed 1's

It does give you the ability to reroll To Hit. This is unarguable.
The fact that it only allows you to reroll To Hit rolls of 1 isn't relevant for this discussion.

 BlackTalos wrote:
So, RedEyeJedi21, as (hopefully) it is clear now that this is an "all or nothing" situation, and that i do believe, as you do, that PE does not grant the "ability to re-roll" until a 1 is rolled, just like other re-rolls granted by "misses" need you to "miss" before you can get the ability, i will continue answering the following:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, they have an ability. That the ability has a condition is irrelevant.

Proven, over and over again.

They only have said "ability" once a dice is rolled and the result can be ascertained.

The "proven" above should be replaced with "stated". You have no proof of this past "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit" from Blast rules.
You also believe BS6+ grants you said ability?
Even though that rule is even clearer than PE?

"it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks."


Clearly a "1" must be rolled before the re-roll is "gained".

Do you have that reroll before you roll a 1? No.
Do you have the ability to reroll before you roll a 1? No.

You will notice that i am quoting rules support again, even though we are repeating the debate. This is both for the new users and because saying "I've proved it X times before" really does not help while debating. I hope this is understood for further participation.

It's not an all or nothing but like you say it's hard to discuss rulings with people who claim to have put an unofficial proven end to rules, and then not evening quoting them.

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

sirlynchmob wrote:
Wow, this thread is going places.

Lets bring up BS6 as well, pg 33. "it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1"

the model does not have the ability to reroll unless it rolls a 1. Just like PE, if you don't roll a 1 first, you do NOT have the ability to reroll.

Prescience actually grants the ability to reroll, PE does not.

Can you guys stop with all the appeals to authority and strawmen now.

BS6 is defined as an ability to re-roll its rolls to hit.

From the "Gets Hot and Re-rolls" (which has pretty much identical wording to Blasts)
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including from BS6+ and Twin-Linked).."

If BS6+ is a valid re-roll ability, how can you claim PE isn't?

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

No, that's not what's being said.
The blast rules aren't qualifying the roll to hit -- that's different from saying there's no restrictions.
And PE explicitly does have that.


I left out irrelevant parts of the rule. You keep saying PE doesn't allow you to reroll To Hit - you've been proven incorrect, repeatedly.