Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 RedEyeJedi21 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

It's not an all or nothing but like you say it's hard to discuss rulings with people who claim to have put an unofficial proven end to rules, and then not evening quoting them.

My points exactly. They have taken it upon themselves to declare that the Blasts and Re-Rules wording has no restrictions, even though it specifically says models that 'have the ability to re-roll it's to hit rolls' ...which the PE simply doesn't have.

Bless you're agreeing with someone you don't even understand. So once again:

PE does give you the ability to reroll, but there is a condition to it. Just like a rule that gave you the ability to reroll all failed to hit rolls gives you the ability, but again with a condition.

Show why this condition does not have to be met:

"Failed To Hit roll"

But this condition does:

"To Hit roll of 1"

To help your understanding think about this: let's assume I am Bs 4. Answer the following 3 questions for each example.

1) If I have the ability to reroll to hit can I re roll the dice?
2) If I have the ability to reroll all failed Hits can I reroll the dice?
3) If I have PE can I reroll the dice?

Note these questions are about can not whether you'd want to or not:

A) Say I roll a 1?
B) I roll a 2?
C) I roll a 6?

It's very clear by your way of using irrelevant rules as a means of comparing the rules in question that it's you that clearly doesn't understand.

Can you answer the questions? Then perhaps I'll be able to help you understand the relevance.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

Spoiler:

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

If you re-roll more than one, you've broken the Master-crafted rule.

Well.... that was the point?
Your interpretation leads to breaking the Master-crafted rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

That's your assumption, and one the actual rules don't support. It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

Demonstrable if you consider the "ability" in the way you do. I have seen that.
The result is still breaking the BS6+ rule. As for Master-crafted above.

The "and chooses to do so after firing" is because of how re-roll work:
You roll once, and check the result. If conditions are met, you may re-roll (choice). Same thing for blast: you roll to "firing a Blast weapon", and then you can "chooses to do so"(re-roll).

Well but "do so" refers to "reroll its roll(s) to hit", not "reroll the scatter dice", doesn't it? Yes I know it isn't an obligation, but the wording is then very clumsy and misleading in my opinion. Do you mean this: "If a model firing a blast weapon has the ability to reroll its rolls to hit, it can reroll the scatter dice. If it chooses to do so, reroll both the scatter die and the distance."?

But thats not the wording. So it leads to the problem I mentioned:

If conditions are met, you may re-roll (choice)

Exactly. The conditions can't be met, because there was no roll to hit. So the choice is non existent.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

What if we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit? What if say we've rolled a 1 on the Gets Hot roll for a Plasma Cannon?

Then as sirlynchmob has pointed out this is not a To Hit roll.

The rules contained in Gets Hot therefore explains what you get:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (...) it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

So you agree the trigger "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" works for Bs6+ & PE when you haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. Is that correct?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

How is this arguing that a Plasma Cannon can't re-roll its Gets Hot?
"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

There is specific wording for that weapon to function, because the current setting is, of course, when we have rolled a 1 already (which Blast weapons can't do).

Because we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. He have triggered an "ability to reroll its rolls To Hit".

Does that trigger work for PE and Bs6+ yes or no?

When we've rolled a 1 To Hit, yeah the trigger works.

"it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit." refers to "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (...) For each roll of a 1, the weapon Gets Hot".
If the models has BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule, the "1" has been rolled?

Not seeing an issue?

What if we haven't rolled a 1 To Hit? What if say we've rolled a 1 on the Gets Hot roll for a Plasma Cannon?

Then as sirlynchmob has pointed out this is not a To Hit roll.

The rules contained in Gets Hot therefore explains what you get:

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (...) it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

So you agree the trigger "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" works for Bs6+ & PE when you haven't rolled a 1 To Hit. Is that correct?

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

 BlackTalos wrote:
"Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again."

The above "situation" within the rules, is only when you have gauged the result of the first roll.

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

Spoiler:

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

If you re-roll more than one, you've broken the Master-crafted rule.

Well.... that was the point?
Your interpretation leads to breaking the Master-crafted rule.

... No? You're not forced to re-roll all 3, attempting to re-roll all 3 would break a rule. My interpretation doesn't break the rule, attempting to do it 3 times does.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

That's your assumption, and one the actual rules don't support. It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

Demonstrable if you consider the "ability" in the way you do. I have seen that.
The result is still breaking the BS6+ rule. As for Master-crafted above.

No rule is broken. You've failed to prove otherwise. You're making assumptions and haven't actually backed them up more than saying "it totes breaks dem rulez dawg." In fact, you've gone out of your way to say that purposely breaking the Master Crafted rule is a consequence of my interpretation, when my interpretation does nothing of the sort.

I'm not breaking the BS6+ rule. There is no rule in there that says you cannot re-roll scatter. Your assertion that "gains" means anything relevant has yet to ever be proven. At this point you're resorting to making things up, which is obviously poor debate form.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

How is the rulebook lying?

It says "(including because of BS6+ or the Twin-linked special rule), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1".

This applies to weapons rolling To Hit.

In the case of the Plasma Cannon:
"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit: it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."
So if it got the ability, it can do what follows. Say when it rolled a Twin-linked Blast for example.
If it did not have the ability , like PE, or Prescience, it could not re-roll the scatter nor the Gets Hot.

No rules broken?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
MC: The model has the ability. Fires 3 shots. You can re-roll Blast scatter on all 3. Or would you now say that shooting is not simultaneous?

A single model's shooting is simultaneous.
Different weapons from a single model is demonstrably not. If it's Blast 3, Master Crafted (I don't think a single example of a multi-shot master crafted blast weapon exists, so this is theoretical) then I'd have to look closer at the rules, but I would still say no - there's no "limbo" and you resolve the scatters sequentially. You would, however, be able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding which to reroll.

As you are 'able to see the result of all 3 scatters before deciding', why would using MC for 1 invalidate the other 2? if you select the 3rd shot, why would the sequentially 1st shot loose the ability?

Spoiler:

Weapons with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon.

If you re-roll more than one, you've broken the Master-crafted rule.

Well.... that was the point?
Your interpretation leads to breaking the Master-crafted rule.

... No? You're not forced to re-roll all 3, attempting to re-roll all 3 would break a rule. My interpretation doesn't break the rule, attempting to do it 3 times does.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

BS6+: "it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.". If you never rolled a 1, explain how you "gained" the re-roll?

Poor wording. Not a "broken" rule, however.

If you re-roll a scatter with BS10, you have broken the BS6+ rule, as you did not have a re-roll.

A model with BS10 firing a blast weapon reduces scatter by 10". It does not re-roll.

That's your assumption, and one the actual rules don't support. It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

Demonstrable if you consider the "ability" in the way you do. I have seen that.
The result is still breaking the BS6+ rule. As for Master-crafted above.

No rule is broken. You've failed to prove otherwise. You're making assumptions and haven't actually backed them up more than saying "it totes breaks dem rulez dawg." In fact, you've gone out of your way to say that purposely breaking the Master Crafted rule is a consequence of my interpretation, when my interpretation does nothing of the sort.

I'm not breaking the BS6+ rule. There is no rule in there that says you cannot re-roll scatter. Your assertion that "gains" means anything relevant has yet to ever be proven. At this point you're resorting to making things up, which is obviously poor debate form.

If you have BS10, and you fire a plasma canon, per your interpretation, you may re-roll the scatter. Correct?
Support with rules as to how you've done so? "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" requires that you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

BS10 would clearly "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks". Has it done so, or have you broken the rule?

The rulebook says (which you've conveniently removed) "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of Bs6+...): it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit."

So we KNOW that Bs6+ (and therefore PE) works with the trigger "ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

Your interpretation means the rulebook is wrong, who should we believe you or the Rulebook?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

And why do you keep looking at gets hot, when the rules for BS6 are more relevant here.

Does a model with BS6 have the ability to reroll?
what needs to happen for a model with BS6 to gain a reroll?
he gains the ability, he does not have the ability.

You're conflating a rule for pistols and trying to apply it to blast weapons.

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you have BS10, and you fire a plasma canon, per your interpretation, you may re-roll the scatter. Correct?
Support with rules as to how you've done so? "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" requires that you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

BS10 would clearly "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks". Has it done so, or have you broken the rule?

Your argument assumes the model does not have the ability to reroll To Hit, and that "gains" is a relevant word.
The actual rules have been posted and prove you incorrect - a model with BS6+ has the ability to re-roll To Hit and therefore "gains" is an incorrect word choice.
I have not broken a rule. Your continued assertions otherwise is ignoring facts and making things up.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the trigger would only work if the model has the ability: after you have rolled the first shot, you check whether you are eligible for a re-roll. As per how Re-rolling actually works:

So Bs6+ doesn't allow you reroll Gets Hot on blast weapons as no 1 To Hit roll was made correct?

Just as BS6+ does not allow you to re-roll scatter as you never rolled a 1 To Hit.

So the rulebook is lying when it says you do?

And why do you keep looking at gets hot, when the rules for BS6 are more relevant here.

Does a model with BS6 have the ability to reroll?
what needs to happen for a model with BS6 to gain a reroll?
he gains the ability, he does not have the ability.

You're conflating a rule for pistols and trying to apply it to blast weapons.

Because Gets Hot and blasts is not a To Hit roll much like blasts and scatter. They also have the same trigger for an ability to gain a reroll to those rolls. One them calls out that Bs6+ works in one of its examples. So likewise the question is:

Does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you have BS10, and you fire a plasma canon, per your interpretation, you may re-roll the scatter. Correct?
Support with rules as to how you've done so? "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" requires that you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

BS10 would clearly "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks". Has it done so, or have you broken the rule?

Your argument assumes the model does not have the ability to reroll To Hit, and that "gains" is a relevant word.
The actual rules have been posted and prove you incorrect - a model with BS6+ has the ability to re-roll To Hit and therefore "gains" is an incorrect word choice.
I have not broken a rule. Your continued assertions otherwise is ignoring facts and making things up.

LOL,

in other words you are saying

BS6 proves I'm wrong, so just ignore it and listen to me

You are breaking rules, you're rewriting the rule book to suit your needs.

I don't have a apple, I gain a apple, I now have a apple. I did not always have a apple before I gained one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:


Because Gets Hot and blasts is not a To Hit roll much like blasts and scatter. They also have the same trigger for an ability to gain a reroll to those rolls. One them calls out that Bs6+ works in one of its examples. So likewise the question is:

Does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

 FlingitNow wrote:

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

are you claiming only blast weapons have get's hot?

Again if your only argument is about get's hot, then you should clearly see that you're wrong.

If you don't roll a 1, then you do not have the ability to reroll. Go read BS6, when it comes to blasts PE & BS6 do not have the ability to reroll, as you never gained one. Until you can address BS6 to make your case, trying to quote get's hot as it apply to non blast weapons, will not help you at all.

can you even admit Non blast weapons can have the get's hot rule? and in the case of non blast weapons, if you have BS6 and roll a 1, then you would have the ability to reroll as that is the same requirement to check for get's hot. is that correct or is that another area you think the rule book is lying about?

RAW: BS6 and PE do not allow blasts to reroll. As they have not gained the ability to reroll and can not do so.

You have the ability to re-roll when the 1 is rolled, as somebody stated above.

You have the ability to reroll. You can use it if you roll a 1. Not rolling a 1 doesnt remove the general ability. Otherwise you would argue, I cannot swim, because there is no pool within 5 miles, which is wrong.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

You have the ability to re-roll when the 1 is rolled, as somebody stated above.

You have the ability to reroll. You can use it if you roll a 1. Not rolling a 1 doesnt remove the general ability. Otherwise you would argue, I cannot swim, because there is no pool within 5 miles, which is wrong.

This is correct, but the same thing (in a different form) has been presented and ignored before - so good luck getting it understood this time.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

You have the ability to re-roll when the 1 is rolled, as somebody stated above.

You have the ability to reroll. You can use it if you roll a 1. Not rolling a 1 doesnt remove the general ability. Otherwise you would argue, I cannot swim, because there is no pool within 5 miles, which is wrong.

the proper analogy would be,
You can't swim
You gain the ability to swim (after rolling a 1 to hit)
When you find a pool, you have the ability to swim

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

If you can gain the ability to reroll, then it works like twin linked. Like any non blast weapon with get's hot is capable of doing.

I'm not the one claiming the rule book is lying, that would be the one you are agree with.

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

are you claiming only blast weapons have get's hot?

Again if your only argument is about get's hot, then you should clearly see that you're wrong.

If you don't roll a 1, then you do not have the ability to reroll. Go read BS6, when it comes to blasts PE & BS6 do not have the ability to reroll, as you never gained one. Until you can address BS6 to make your case, trying to quote get's hot as it apply to non blast weapons, will not help you at all.

can you even admit Non blast weapons can have the get's hot rule? and in the case of non blast weapons, if you have BS6 and roll a 1, then you would have the ability to reroll as that is the same requirement to check for get's hot. is that correct or is that another area you think the rule book is lying about?

RAW: BS6 and PE do not allow blasts to reroll. As they have not gained the ability to reroll and can not do so.

I'm not claiming only blasts have Gets Hot. Just the parts about blast are the only parts relevant to this discussion.

Why do you gain the ability on any 1 you've rolled? Or is it only on 1s To Hit which the blast weapon Gets Hot roll demonstrably isn't?

Yes non blast weapons can get hot. Non blast weapons don't have relevance to the discussion at hand. You can't claim the rulebook is lying and then say that is RaW. So again I ask the question:

So does the trigger "has the ability to reroll its To Hit rolls" work for Bs6+ (& therefore PE) when you do not roll a To Hit roll? Or is the rulebook lying when it says it does?

 FlingitNow wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:


are you claiming only blast weapons have get's hot?

Again if your only argument is about get's hot, then you should clearly see that you're wrong.

If you don't roll a 1, then you do not have the ability to reroll. Go read BS6, when it comes to blasts PE & BS6 do not have the ability to reroll, as you never gained one. Until you can address BS6 to make your case, trying to quote get's hot as it apply to non blast weapons, will not help you at all.

can you even admit Non blast weapons can have the get's hot rule? and in the case of non blast weapons, if you have BS6 and roll a 1, then you would have the ability to reroll as that is the same requirement to check for get's hot. is that correct or is that another area you think the rule book is lying about?

RAW: BS6 and PE do not allow blasts to reroll. As they have not gained the ability to reroll and can not do so.

Why do you gain the ability on any 1 you've rolled? Or is it only on 1s To Hit which the blast weapon Gets Hot roll demonstrably isn't?

BS6 clearly explains why you gain the ability. they explain it in the rules quite clearly. to ignore it is to lie about the rules.

If you can't roll a 1 to hit, you can not gain the ability to reroll.

so BS6 and PE have no effect when you check to reroll blast weapons.

As you can't even address the rules in question without strawmaning, go ahead and keep stating your opinion on the matter. I'll stick to the rules which does not support anything you are claiming.

If you can't roll a 1 to hit, you can not gain the ability to reroll.

So the rulebook is lying when it says the exact opposite of this?

Why do you think the Rulebook is lying to you?

the proper analogy would be,
You can't swim
You gain the ability to swim (after rolling a 1 to hit)
When you find a pool, you have the ability to swim

I think you are thinking of an ability only as an opportunnity.
This definition proves, that the opportunity is not necessarily needed:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ability

The ability is granted by the existence of the special rule. It can be used, if the conditions given by the rule are met. Blast and rerolls doesn't require you to make use of it, because this would contradict itself (you can not reroll rolls to hit if you don't roll to hit at all).

Therefore either the rule is just nonsense or it is unconditional. Since rules are meant to be of actual use, the latter has to be inferred.

 -Nazdreg- wrote:

the proper analogy would be,
You can't swim
You gain the ability to swim (after rolling a 1 to hit)
When you find a pool, you have the ability to swim

I think you are thinking of an ability only as an opportunnity.
This definition proves, that the opportunity is not necessarily needed:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ability

The ability is granted by the existence of the special rule. It can be used, if the conditions given by the rule are met. Blast and rerolls doesn't require you to make use of it, because this would contradict itself (you can not reroll rolls to hit if you don't roll to hit at all).

Therefore either the rule is just nonsense or it is unconditional. Since rules are meant to be of actual use, the latter has to be inferred.

One last try. is having a BS6+ an ability? no, it's a characteristic
so does a model with BS6 have the ability to reroll? No
How does a model with BS6 get the ability to reroll? He gains it when he rolls a 1 on his to hit roll.

when that model rolls a blast weapon, does it have the ability to reroll? No
Does he gain the ability after the first roll? No, he never rolled a to hit of 1 to gain the ability
When it's time to reroll the blast, does the model have the ability? No, he never gained it

How this is relevant to PE. The two concepts are near identical, Much more akin than prescience, and magnitudes more relevant than get's hot.

we have BS6
"if a model has a BS 6 or higher, it GAINS a reroll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit with ranged attacks."

PE
"at least one model with this special rule rerolls failed to hit ... of 1"

So when that model rolls a blast weapon, does it have the ability to reroll? No
Does he gain the ability after the first roll? No, he never rolled a to hit roll of 1 and can only reroll to hit rolls of 1.
When it's time to reroll the blast, does the model have the ability? No, he never gained it, nor had it, and can only specifically reroll 1's, PE does not grant rerolls of blast weapons.

But if the blast rule does indeed override this restrictions and grants the ability to reroll to models that don't have it, Then would agree that a model with a ammo runt can reroll every blast all game long? Be as specific as you can.

RULE #1 - and the tenets of YMDC, please, everyone.

Thanks!

nosferatu1001 wrote:

In context of the debate though the first is sufficient to prove that it triggers the blasts and rerolls rule. Proven, again.

How do you rhyme that with the Hemlock entry from the Yanden book, which states that the hemlock cannot benefit from spirit mark. Since it only has blast weapons, it should be able to benefit from it, but it is clearly disallowed from the text...

It's written as a remember, but it's a new rule. It has no effect at all on the debate.

How so?

Spirit mark lets you reroll to hit rolls of 1. So it should benefit from the reroll for blasts as it has the ability to reroll? But if it would do so, as has been argumented here is possible, wouldn't that constitute a benefit?

The 'it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner' seems to imply RAI leans the other way?

tom_ep wrote:
How so?

Spirit mark lets you reroll to hit rolls of 1. So it should benefit from the reroll for blasts as it has the ability to reroll? But if it would do so, as has been argumented here is possible, wouldn't that constitute a benefit?

The 'it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner' seems to imply RAI leans the other way?

A) How is that relevant in a RAW discussion?
B) You could argue that only the Hemlock isn't intended to reroll.