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tom_ep wrote:
How so?

Spirit mark lets you reroll to hit rolls of 1. So it should benefit from the reroll for blasts as it has the ability to reroll? But if it would do so, as has been argumented here is possible, wouldn't that constitute a benefit?

The 'it doesn't roll to hit in a conventional manner' seems to imply RAI leans the other way?

As I already pointed out, it actually makes a new rule up for the fighter. Raw is clear in the general case.

I must say, I've never had this come up before. Ever. And if just asked I would have firmly said "no, you cannot reroll blasts with PE"... but nos, rigeld, flingit... you make a compelling RAW case.

Totally agreeing with their reading. Still not sure on HIWPI, but that's (still) not what YMDC is about.

the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

I don't think a model with PE has the ability to re-roll until it rolls a 1. prior to that point it does not have the ability to re-roll. No one is going to be able to prove that you have the ability to re-roll a hit before rolling a 1, just as no one will be able to prove you have to have the ability to re-roll in hand versus ever have a chance to get the ability to re-roll.

If your gaming group can't decide on whether or not Preferred Enemy grants you the re-roll on blast weapons, implement this house rule:

"Preferred Enemy: In addition if, when rolling for scatter on a Blast Weapon, the sum of the 2D6 roll is 10 or higher you may re-roll the result."

The reasoning is this - Preferred Enemy normally has a 1/6 chance of triggering (ie a roll of 1 on a D6). A result of 10+ on a 2D6 is a 1/6 chance as well. This keeps the intention of the Preferred Enemy rule alive, ie allowing you to re-roll the worst 1/6 chance, whilst also keeping the intention of the Blast rule/re-roll rule alive.

 GoonBandito wrote:
If your gaming group can't decide on whether or not Preferred Enemy grants you the re-roll on blast weapons, implement this house rule:

"Preferred Enemy: In addition if, when rolling for scatter on a Blast Weapon, the sum of the 2D6 roll is 10 or higher you may re-roll the result."

The reasoning is this - Preferred Enemy normally has a 1/6 chance of triggering (ie a roll of 1 on a D6). A result of 10+ on a 2D6 is a 1/6 chance as well. This keeps the intention of the Preferred Enemy rule alive, ie allowing you to re-roll the worst 1/6 chance, whilst also keeping the intention of the Blast rule/re-roll rule alive.

This is a very well thought out house rule.

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

You are demonstrably wrong here, Care to cite that rule?

If a model buys the runt, the model has the ability to reroll.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again.

Quoted above is the RaW definition of a re-roll. "In some situations, the rules allow you", so either you have the allowance ("ability") or you do not.
This is known after the dice has been thrown.

rigeld2 wrote:
Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

That sounds a lot like the dice has been rolled, the runt got used, and you now have the "ability".
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

Continue cherry-picking at the Rules to make sure they work, we will talk when things change (FaQ or other).
Master-Crafted, Ammo Runts, and BS6+ Included.

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

quote the rule, or stop stating this. It is wrong, it is not RAW, and continuing to assert this as a RAW without quoting the rule is lying.

This discussion has two sides (IMHO, with variants of each):

1) Either you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" (as is found in Gets Hot) because MC, Ammo runt, PE, TL, Earth Caste Array, etc Special Rules provide you with this ability.

2) You only obtain / gain / have the ability to re-roll once the To Hit roll (or equivalent Blast rule) has been rolled and the result can be gauged. Once you've rolled a 1, 2, 6 etc.

I do understand that you are on the '1)' side? but you are cherry picking conditionals, something that "has the ability to re-roll" does not care for:
(When firing at your PE) If you have the PE rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the MC rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have an ammo runt, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the Earth Caste Array rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the TL rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No

Any of these answered by "only if..." will be the exact same argument as "only if a 1 is rolled" (for PE and others). Consistency.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

What is actually stating the underlined? Sure, we can all agree on RaI and this discussion would never even exist.

But by RaW (as this is the issue): Does the model have the ability? as long as you have the runt, yes you do.

Unless you believe that the model has to roll To Hit first, and that a decision to obtain a re-roll burns the runt? A decision made upon having rolled the dice. And this can only be done once. In which case we are in agreement, and the ability is gained upon burning of the runt (or upon rolling a '1', etc).

Otherwise you can stick to "ability" being all-encompassing and ignoring conditions

Removal of the runt is not a condition of the reroll it is a result of using the reroll.

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

This is what I meant - I apologize for my poor wording.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
All of this is linked in the RaW. You cannot perform part of a rule, but not the other when it's in the exact same phrase.

I'm not doing that. Please stop asserting this as fact.
I'm not cherry picking anything at all. Orks have no ability to re-roll until they pop a runt.

I'm going to argue this a little, but agree with the overall sentiment.
First the rule:

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

The model does indeed have the ability to re-roll. But once that re-roll ability is used, the runt is gone.
It can't be used for unlimited blast re-rolls.

You have the ability, but if you use it, the runt is burnt out. You then no longer have the ability.

What is actually stating the underlined? Sure, we can all agree on RaI and this discussion would never even exist.

But by RaW (as this is the issue): Does the model have the ability? as long as you have the runt, yes you do.

Unless you believe that the model has to roll To Hit first, and that a decision to obtain a re-roll burns the runt? A decision made upon having rolled the dice. And this can only be done once. In which case we are in agreement, and the ability is gained upon burning of the runt (or upon rolling a '1', etc).

Otherwise you can stick to "ability" being all-encompassing and ignoring conditions

I bolded, underlined, and italicized why his statement is correct. Once you "use" the ability, since it's one use only, the ability doesn't exist anymore. Using it twice breaks the "one use only" rule.

Unless you're going to argue that using isn't using?

If you decide against using the ammo runt to "re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting", do you have the ability to re-roll blasts?
I mean "Blasts and Re-rolls" only requires that the model "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

1) Does an Ork with ammo runt "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"? It should be an easy yes/no.

2) When an Ork (possibly the same one) re-roll the Scatter+2D6 because of the "Blasts and Re-rolls" rule, has he "re-roll(-ed) one To Hit roll" (Runt rule)?

Answering 2) might be more tricky, because you need to realise the Ork has not rolled To Hit. So he can't possibly have used the Runt....

 BlackTalos wrote:
If you decide against using the ammo runt to "re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting", do you have the ability to re-roll blasts?
I mean "Blasts and Re-rolls" only requires that the model "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit".

1) Does an Ork with ammo runt "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"? It should be an easy yes/no.

2) When an Ork (possibly the same one) re-roll the Scatter+2D6 because of the "Blasts and Re-rolls" rule, has he "re-roll(-ed) one To Hit roll" (Runt rule)?

Answering 2) might be more tricky, because you need to realise the Ork has not rolled To Hit. So he can't possibly have used the Runt....

Actually, #2 isn't so tricky. The section of the BRB "Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls" says "If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6." It says "...has the ability to re-roll to hit and chooses to do so..." so even though blasts don't roll to hit, the interaction between blasts and re-rolls is clearly that you are "choosing to re-roll to hit".

I wonder if we're combining "ability" and "possibility" into one word. Doesn't possessing the ammo runt give you the option to gain the ability? You don't have it yet, but when you decide to you can. Until you actually use the runt, you don't have the ability.... Though it sounds weird, you just have the ability to get the ability. Which is one degree of separation too many.

Just a thought. Then again maybe I'm splitting hairs too finely (something we are all inconsistently capable of).

 BlackTalos wrote:
1) Does an Ork with ammo runt "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit"? It should be an easy yes/no.

Yes.

2) When an Ork (possibly the same one) re-roll the Scatter+2D6 because of the "Blasts and Re-rolls" rule, has he "re-roll(-ed) one To Hit roll" (Runt rule)?

He has used his ability to re-roll To Hit by re-rolling the Scatter.
If he didn't have the ability, he couldn't re-roll Scatter.


Chooses to do what?
"re-roll it's rolls To Hit"
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

It's literally the same as Master Crafted - which you apparently accepted my argument then (because you haven't attempted to rebut it) but you're pushing this one now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
I wonder if we're combining "ability" and "possibility" into one word. Doesn't possessing the ammo runt give you the option to gain the ability? You don't have it yet, but when you decide to you can. Until you actually use the runt, you don't have the ability.... Though it sounds weird, you just have the ability to get the ability. Which is one degree of separation too many.

Just a thought. Then again maybe I'm splitting hairs too finely (something we are all inconsistently capable of).

That's BlackTalos' argument, which has been proven incorrect - using rules quotes - if you'd read the thread.

lol. Rigeld, I love your sloppy and liberal use of the word "proven" and the assumption that your arguments are clear.

If you read what you're attacking me on, I'm saying that maybe you can't use the ammo runt's reroll unless you burn the runt. Having it isn't enough. That's what you said a few posts ago. What's your beef here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

 Lobukia wrote:
lol. Rigeld, I love your sloppy and liberal use of the word "proven" and the assumption that your arguments are clear.

If they're unclear, please ask me to elaborate instead of attempting to mock me. I'm being as clear as I can, and the rules quotes supplied support my statements.

If you read what you're attacking me on, I'm saying that maybe you can't use the ammo runt's reroll unless you burn the runt. Having it isn't enough. That's what you said a few posts ago. What's your beef here?

And since I made that post, I was corrected on my wording. Perhaps you should read the entire thread? That'd be great.

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the ability to re-roll versus having an available re-roll.

if the availability to re-roll gives you a re-roll and not having an actual available re-roll then orks do not need to 'burn' or actually use ammo runts to get a re-roll if they have an ammo runt.

Incorrect. They do not have the ability to re-roll unless they burn an ammo runt.

 BlackTalos wrote:
This discussion has two sides (IMHO, with variants of each):

1) Either you "has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" (as is found in Gets Hot) because MC, Ammo runt, PE, TL, Earth Caste Array, etc Special Rules provide you with this ability.

2) You only obtain / gain / have the ability to re-roll once the To Hit roll (or equivalent Blast rule) has been rolled and the result can be gauged. Once you've rolled a 1, 2, 6 etc.

I do understand that you are on the '1)' side? but you are cherry picking conditionals, something that "has the ability to re-roll" does not care for:
(When firing at your PE) If you have the PE rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the MC rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have an ammo runt, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the Earth Caste Array rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No
If you have the TL rule, do you "has the ability to re-roll"? Yes/No

I would like to point out as well that there is a difference between "can re-roll 1's To Hit" and "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit"

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

rigeld2 wrote:
It's literally the same as Master Crafted - which you apparently accepted my argument then (because you haven't attempted to rebut it) but you're pushing this one now?

Yes, they are both the same! You must "use his ability to re-roll To Hit" with the Runt, just as you must "use" Master-Crafted to re-roll the scatter, and just as you must roll a 1 to re-roll To Hit with PE.

I'm glad we agree that certain rules must be used before the models gains the ability to re-roll.
Like roll a "1".
Or use his ability to re-roll To Hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out as well that there is a difference between "can re-roll 1's To Hit" and "gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit"

Indeed, very relevant for the side arguing the ability is always present:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's demonstrable (and has been demonstrated despite your handwaving) that BS6+ is as re-rollable as Prescience and PE.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

Correct - they do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are one use only. Using them twice breaks the "one use" rule. As I said before.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

Correct - they do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are one use only. Using them twice breaks the "one use" rule. As I said before.

Let's, yet again just use the same words (sorry if this is rude in any way)

Correct - "they" do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are for rolls of "1" only. Using them on any other roll breaks the "failed To Hit rolls of 1" rule. As I said before.

"They" being PE as you might have guessed

Youre confusing conditional reroll with a reroll with conditions.

You do this every thread. Every single one.

PE has a condition that it is only available against your PE. It has a reroll on condition you roll a 1 to hit. THe former is important, the latter unimportant.

An ammo runt is the same. It has the eonditon "one use only" before you have the ability - or rather, after one use only, you no longer have the ability. It then can be used to reroll. The former is unimportant to blast and rerolls. The latter is relevant.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So even though you don't roll To Hit with a blast, re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit. Explicitly. Proven using actual rules.

Oh, but I fully agree with this.
Completely.
Can PE choose to re-roll To Hit when no 1 is rolled? I mean "re-rolling the scatter is choosing to re-roll To Hit", so surely you must have been able to do so?

What you're saying is that a model with PE does not have the ability to re-roll To Hit?

Despite the rules saying they do?

Only if,
What you're saying is that a model with MC / Ammo runt do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit, (on 3 simultaneous shots - Heavy 3,Blast)?

Despite the rules saying it applies to 1 roll?

Correct - they do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are one use only. Using them twice breaks the "one use" rule. As I said before.

Let's, yet again just use the same words (sorry if this is rude in any way)

Correct - "they" do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit on all 3, because the abilities are for rolls of "1" only. Using them on any other roll breaks the "failed To Hit rolls of 1" rule. As I said before.

"They" being PE as you might have guessed

Not a comparable situation at all - again.
If you use a one use only ability, you do not have the ability any more. It's not "conditional" it's a one use ability.

Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Youre confusing conditional reroll with a reroll with conditions.

You do this every thread. Every single one.

PE has a condition that it is only available against your PE. It has a reroll on condition you roll a 1 to hit. THe former is important, the latter unimportant.

Ammo runt has a condition that it is only available once. It has a reroll on condition you can only have 1 roll. THe former is important, the latter unimportant.
So, 3 shots, 3 Blast Re-rolls?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
An ammo runt is the same. It has the eonditon "one use only" before you have the ability - or rather, after one use only, you no longer have the ability. It then can be used to reroll. The former is unimportant to blast and rerolls. The latter is relevant.

PE is the same. It has the condition "available against your PE" before you have the ability - or rather, against "not-PE", you no longer have the ability. It then can be used to reroll 1s. The former is unimportant to blast and rerolls. The latter is relevant.

rigeld2 wrote:
Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

Does a model with Ammo Runt/MC have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? my answer will be your answer.


PS: replacing a few words in your phrases shows that the situations, and conditionals, are all the same. Conditional reroll VS reroll with conditions is whish-listing. But even if i play along with those games, it will still not work. You will have Ammo Runts and MC re-roll 3 times for 3 shots, breaking rules.