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 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

Does a model with Ammo Runt/MC have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? my answer will be your answer.

The answers are necessarily different. The answer to PE is "Yes." The answer to Ammo Runt/MC is "Yes" the first time the question is asked, "No." every other time.

So no, your answer cannot be my answer without making up rules or breaking them. And you're the one doing so - my argument is both consistent and doesn't break any rules.

No, it isnt "whish" listing.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with PE, you must be firing at your PE. NOt firing at PE? No ability.

Rerolling 1s is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling all failed is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 2s on every 2nd sunday is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Does a model with PE have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? Unqualified question, please give an unqualified answer.

Does a model with Ammo Runt/MC have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll? my answer will be your answer.

The answers are necessarily different. The answer to PE is "Yes." The answer to Ammo Runt/MC is "Yes" the first time the question is asked, "No." every other time.

So no, your answer cannot be my answer without making up rules or breaking them. And you're the one doing so - my argument is both consistent and doesn't break any rules.

So far we have been arguing "your argument", because mine is completely different (and breaks absolutely no rules).

I am not too worried about the "one use only" of the Runt, others argued it better in other threads (and got Nos to concede "not using the Runt" IIRC, a while back...).

What i would focus on is the "conditional reroll against a reroll with conditions", aptly put by Nos.

Codex Orks, Ammo Runt wrote:One use only: a model with an ammo runt can re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting

"One use only" is the condition to get the re-roll.
"re-roll one To Hit roll when shooting" is the conditional re-roll.

"can re-roll one To Hit roll" has the exact same grammatical strength as "re-rolls (failed) rolls of 1" and as "re-roll one failed roll To Hit".

We are now going to go full circle with you saying:
"If you roll more than 1 MC, you broke the MC rule"
"If you roll more than 1 runt re-roll, you broke the runt rule"

Which is the same as
"If you roll no 1, you broke the PE rule"

And loop, and loop and loop.
Same thing, same rules and you can cherry-pick MC and Runts over PE...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt "whish" listing.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with PE, you must be firing at your PE. NOt firing at PE? No ability.

Rerolling 1s is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling all failed is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 2s on every 2nd sunday is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with MC/Runts, you must be firing once only. NOt firing just once? No ability.

Rerolling one roll is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling one failed roll is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 4 rolls of 6s is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, it isnt "whish" listing.

Before you have an ability to reroll to hit with PE, you must be firing at your PE. NOt firing at PE? No ability.

Rerolling 1s is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling all failed is irrelevant. Proven
Rerolling 2s on every 2nd sunday is irrelevant. Proven.

BEcause all of these are conditions ON THE REROLL. ,not conditions TO HAVE the ability to reroll

Reword abnd change the rules all you like, it hasnt washed in any thread, and never will.

From a rules perspective youre done, as your argument is refuted. COntinue arguing HYWPI if you wish.

nothing you stated is proven is actually proven, they are just things you state and claim are proven.

having to roll a 1 before you are allowed to reroll is not a condition on the re-roll, it is a condition on the to hit roll to get a re-roll.

a to hit roll that can never be made with a blast weapon.

A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy.

so it gets the re-roll on rolling 1s to hit, Did the unit roll to hit and roll a 1 [the listed condition to get a re-roll] when it fired its blast weapon? no.

claiming it is a condition on the re-roll is false, utterly.

the model does not have a re-roll that is only usable if it rolls a 1, this is never stated nor suggest-further there is no rule anywhere that says 'has a re-roll but may only use it if it rolls x number', it has a to hit roll that it can re-roll if it rolls a 1.

No, incorrect, again.

One is a condition On having the ability. The other is a condition on the Reroll.

Blasts and rerolls cares about one and not the other.

Blacktalos - as you refuse to engage, I assume you are conceding the RAW. Is as proven.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blacktalos - as you refuse to engage, I assume you are conceding the RAW. Is as proven.

Replacing 'PE' with 'MC' or 'Ammo Runt' is not refusing to engage. It is showing that, for you to stay consistent in "conditional reroll" V "reroll with conditions", you end up breaking the MC and Runt rules, allowing 3 Shots to re-roll when the rules only cater for 1.

At least rigeld understands that a blanket ignore of "reroll with conditions" will create this issue.

An issue not found if you simply follow the rules for re-rolls: Ability/Availability is only present when the dice has been rolled.


EDIT: To which i'll add that further contribution is just tiring.
I get your position (from RaW), i usually argue in favour of it when i can no longer be bothered to explain how it really works, and come back to this infinite loop.
It just isn't correct, but your opinion will never change, as much as i can try to give concise proof that it does not work in the current RaW.
So i'll just put my usual "i'm out of here until something changes", kinda like back in the Void Shield Generator = 1 Hit days...

So you're saying the rule has no application at all? As you never roll to hit?

At least I understand that an interpretation that ignores that there are no conditions placed on "how good" a Reroll has to be, and results in a useless rule, is less likely to be the correct reading of the rule.

Does Blasts care how good your Reroll is? No? Guess PE works then.

 BlackTalos wrote:
We are now going to go full circle with you saying:
"If you roll more than 1 MC, you broke the MC rule"
"If you roll more than 1 runt re-roll, you broke the runt rule"

Which is the same as
"If you roll no 1, you broke the PE rule"

No, they aren't the same at all.
And you're ignoring the Blast rules.
I'm cherry picking nothing and resent the accusation.

And loop, and loop and loop.
Same thing, same rules and you can cherry-pick MC and Runts over PE...

I've provided rules support for why they're different. All you've said is "nuh uh - totes the same". One of those arguments is debating honestly. The other isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
At least rigeld understands that a blanket ignore of "reroll with conditions" will create this issue.

What issue? The invention you've concocted about being able to apply MC/Runts more than once being RAW?
No, I don't concede that and never have.

An issue not found if you simply follow the rules for re-rolls: Ability/Availability is only present when the dice has been rolled.

Which isn't what the rule actually says.

EDIT: To which i'll add that further contribution is just tiring.
I get your position (from RaW), i usually argue in favour of it when i can no longer be bothered to explain how it really works, and come back to this infinite loop.
It just isn't correct, but your opinion will never change, as much as i can try to give concise proof that it does not work in the current RaW.
So i'll just put my usual "i'm out of here until something changes", kinda like back in the Void Shield Generator = 1 Hit days...

Yes, further repetition of a point you can't actually prove sure is tiring.

Rigeld and nos, I know you feel you've articulated your point clearly, but as I have read the thread, there seems to be a subtle shift from page 1 to now and I want to lock your position down as there's some ambiguity as to what you are asserting you've proven. I feel like I know your answers to almost all of these, but please humor me.

Can a unit with PE reroll blasts at their PE?
Can a unit with PE reroll blasts at a unit that is not their PE?
Can a unit with ammo runts reroll blasts before using the runt?
Does taking the reroll constitute the use of the runt?
Can a unit that has used it's runt reroll blasts?

Thank you kindly for replies.

 Lobukia wrote:
Rigeld and nos, I know you feel you've articulated your point clearly, but as I have read the thread, there seems to be a subtle shift from page 1 to now and I want to lock your position down as there's some ambiguity as to what you are asserting you've proven. I feel like I know your answers to almost all of these, but please humor me.

Can a unit with PE reroll blasts at their PE?
Can a unit with PE reroll blasts at a unit that is not their PE?
Can a unit with ammo runts reroll blasts before using the runt?
Does taking the reroll constitute the use of the runt?
Can a unit that has used it's runt reroll blasts?

Thank you kindly for replies.

Yes
No
Possibly - can a unit firing a non-blast r-roll before using the runt?
Yes
No.

 Happyjew wrote:
Possibly - can a unit firing a non-blast r-roll before using the runt?

Re-rolling is what uses the runt. You have the ability to re-roll, doing so is your "one use only".

 grendel083 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Possibly - can a unit firing a non-blast r-roll before using the runt?

Re-rolling is what uses the runt. You have the ability to re-roll, doing so is your "one use only".

Wasn't sure off hand if using the runt gave you the re-roll, or if re-rolling used the runt.

We appear to be as done as we're going to get here...

As always, discuss with your opponent if in doubt.