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I think we should train Welders to be like those mysterious black smiths in fantasy novels. All philosophical and gak about life, steel, and the meaning of why this young hero is here pestering me with his petty problems

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

Causing many of them to make incorrect statements. Rubio's welder v. philosopher comment, for instance.

That was accurate... critics thought they heard philosopher professor... which Rubio didn't say.

Well, it depends on what data you use to compare the two fields. Welders can make good money in relation to their overall level of higher education, but you won't be rich by a damn sight (unfortunately).

Also, what you weld and where you weld it makes a huge difference in what you're paid.

Sure... but the overarching point is that we need to stop denigrating these blue collar jobs over college educations.

 whembly wrote:

That was accurate... critics thought they heard philosopher professor... which Rubio didn't say.

No, they thought they heard "philosopher", which is what Rubio said. People with undergraduate philosophy degrees have a higher median income than welders.

 whembly wrote:

It was fine... not sure I'd agree with the amount of "growth" he claims.

Rendering it a lie, as he used absolutist terminology.

 whembly wrote:

So you don't think Obamacare won't be fixed faster had Congressional critters had to purchase insurance from the exchange, like everybody else?

They already need to do that.

 whembly wrote:
I am not talking about the pie-in-the-sky, non-existent brand of socialism that is embraced by the left, but the real socialism practiced in the real world. The one that enslaves people, that poisons their cultures, that murders them for disobedience or sometimes, simply for mere convenience. Those are the hard facts in those countries that Sanders (many Democrats for that matter) willfully turn a blind eye on because it isn't the "real socialism" as described in their textbooks.

What you are describing is not socialism. You don't know what the word "socialism" means, at all. You've proven that time and time again and you continue to do so.

So let's give it a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance.

Funny enough, he sometimes forget that this isn't the 70's anymore and the scandinavian countries are NOT the socialist countries he believes they are... but, forgive him 'cuz he's totes kewl!

Funny that you bring up that same point again after myself and others have explained how wrong it is. There is literally nothing in any article about this topic that you have brought up that shows Sanders thinks the Nordic model is something that it isn't. On the contrary, he's explained what it is and why he likes plenty of times. But please, go ahead and continue to ignore things you disagree with as you're wont to do.

 whembly wrote:

I am not talking about the pie-in-the-sky, non-existent brand of socialism that is embraced by the left, but the real socialism practiced in the real world. The one that enslaves people, that poisons their cultures, that murders them for disobedience or sometimes, simply for mere convenience. Those are the hard facts in those countries that Sanders (many Democrats for that matter) willfully turn a blind eye on because it isn't the "real socialism" as described in their textbooks.

That's nice and all, but you still haven't presented evidence that Sanders supports that form of socialism. Are you basing your whole argument on his 1985 quote?

 whembly wrote:

Funny enough, he sometimes forget that this isn't the 70's anymore and the scandinavian countries are NOT the socialist countries he believes they are... but, forgive him 'cuz he's totes kewl!

You didn't read that article, did you? Because it tells the tale of states that moved from an overly socialized economy to a mixed one, not unlike the US.

I'm telling you that the majority of voters will not accept Sander's proposal and he'll be branded in the worst way during the General Election.

 whembly wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

Causing many of them to make incorrect statements. Rubio's welder v. philosopher comment, for instance.

That was accurate... critics thought they heard philosopher professor... which Rubio didn't say.

Well, it depends on what data you use to compare the two fields. Welders can make good money in relation to their overall level of higher education, but you won't be rich by a damn sight (unfortunately).

Also, what you weld and where you weld it makes a huge difference in what you're paid.

Sure... but the overarching point is that we need to stop denigrating these blue collar jobs over college educations.

Lately I feel like I hear more denigrating of college education than I do blue collar jobs. I can't remember the last time I actually heard someone saying something negative about skilled blue collar jobs like welding, plumbing, mechanics, etc. If anything I've started hearing more people push for more vocational programs and apprenticeships (which I think is a good thing, personally, and hope to see more of). I hear people denigrate college education and those who have them on a pretty regular basis, and often in a grossly uninformed manner, like Rubio's welders vs. philosophers comment.

 whembly wrote:
I'm telling you that the majority of voters will not accept Sander's proposal and he'll be branded in the worst way during the General Election.

What is his proposal?

 Hordini wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 dogma wrote:

Causing many of them to make incorrect statements. Rubio's welder v. philosopher comment, for instance.

That was accurate... critics thought they heard philosopher professor... which Rubio didn't say.

Well, it depends on what data you use to compare the two fields. Welders can make good money in relation to their overall level of higher education, but you won't be rich by a damn sight (unfortunately).

Also, what you weld and where you weld it makes a huge difference in what you're paid.

Sure... but the overarching point is that we need to stop denigrating these blue collar jobs over college educations.

Lately I feel like I hear more denigrating of college education than I do blue collar jobs. I can't remember the last time I actually heard someone saying something negative about skilled blue collar jobs like welding, plumbing, mechanics, etc. If anything I've started hearing more people push for more vocational programs and apprenticeships (which I think is a good thing, personally, and hope to see more of). I hear denigrate college education and those who have them on a pretty regular basis, and often in a grossly uninformed manner, like Rubio's welders vs. philosophers comment.

I think in a newsy / social media context you're right.

However, what's drilled into our students at Elementary / High Schools?

Vocational programs and apprenticeships need more visibility in not only in High Schools...but, the general public.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:
I'm telling you that the majority of voters will not accept Sander's proposal and he'll be branded in the worst way during the General Election.

What is his proposal?

OH? you haven't read it yet?

https://berniesanders.com/issues/

 whembly wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Why is that?

You tell me because you seem to be the one that thinks it.

I am not talking about the pie-in-the-sky, non-existent brand of socialism that is embraced by the left, but the real socialism practiced in the real world. The one that enslaves people, that poisons their cultures, that murders them for disobedience or sometimes, simply for mere convenience. Those are the hard facts in those countries that Sanders (many Democrats for that matter) willfully turn a blind eye on because it isn't the "real socialism" as described in their textbooks.

So let's give it a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance.

Funny enough, he sometimes forget that this isn't the 70's anymore and the scandinavian countries are NOT the socialist countries he believes they are... but, forgive him 'cuz he's totes kewl!

You mean communism? Because there is a great deal of difference between socialism and communism (shocking, I know).

 whembly wrote:

OH? you haven't read it yet?

I read it, I just don't see what it has to do with Cuba or Venezuela. I mean, you're right, that's how he'll be branded but that is primarily due to people who want to brand him that way. People like you.

 whembly wrote:
Sure... but the overarching point is that we need to stop denigrating these blue collar jobs over college educations.

So the statement he made isn't correct, but since he was lying in support of broader idea it's totally cool.

Gotcha.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Sure... but the overarching point is that we need to stop denigrating these blue collar jobs over college educations.

So the statement he made isn't correct, but since he was lying in support of broader idea it's totally cool.

Gotcha.

Actually, Rubio is still correct.

That’s because there are nearly one million jobs related to welding and machinery, and just about 23,000 jobs related to teaching philosophy. Median wage is therefore an idiotic measure between “philosophers” v. “welders”. That same Labor Bureau estimates that by 2024 the demands for welder will be over 400,000.

Rubio was saying was obvious... you will have a better chance at a decent paying job in welding than you will as a professional philosopher.

So this criticism of Rubio is weaksauce because... what... the Democrats are trying to tear him down? Why?

He's the best candidate to beat HRC or Sanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dogma wrote:

 whembly wrote:

OH? you haven't read it yet?

I read it, I just don't see what it has to do with Cuba or Venezuela. I mean, you're right, that's how he'll be branded but that is primarily due to people who want to brand him that way. People like you.

Um... Sanders would likely agree with me.

He's so fething far on the lefty ideology spectrum, normal lefties can't see him.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:
I think we should train Welders to be like those mysterious black smiths in fantasy novels. All philosophical and gak about life, steel, and the meaning of why this young hero is here pestering me with his petty problems

Sure, why can't it be both?

 whembly wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Sure... but the overarching point is that we need to stop denigrating these blue collar jobs over college educations.

So the statement he made isn't correct, but since he was lying in support of broader idea it's totally cool.

Gotcha.

Actually, Rubio is still correct.

That’s because there are nearly one million jobs related to welding and machinery, and just about 23,000 jobs related to teaching philosophy. Median wage is therefore an idiotic measure between “philosophers” v. “welders”. That same Labor Bureau estimates that by 2024 the demands for welder will be over 400,000.

Rubio was saying was obvious... you will have a better chance at a decent paying job in welding than you will as a professional philosopher.

The point is that having a degree in philosophy doesn't limit you to teaching philosophy. Someone with a philosophy degree can get a variety of high-paying jobs, which is why people with philosophy degrees have higher median incomes. Humanities degrees don't put you on one specific job track, which is hard for some people to understand, but that's actually one of the advantages to having one.

whembly wrote:
So you don't think Obamacare won't be fixed faster had Congressional critters had to purchase insurance from the exchange, like everybody else?

Nope. They all make enough money, have enough lobbyists buying them free meals, have the party's support structure, etc., so that they can pretty much pay for any insurance program they want or even pay their own medical costs.

Yeah, they get paid $17400 a year. They can pay no problem.

Good summary of claims from the debate, as always:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/nov/10/fact-checking-republican-fox-business-network-deba/

 d-usa wrote:
Good summary of claims from the debate, as always:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/nov/10/fact-checking-republican-fox-business-network-deba/

pretty good stuff...


The one thing I will "agree" with Rubio on, is that we really do need to not be "demonizing" trade schools. I think that education as a whole is important, but the trades are just as vital to America as are academic and more white collar type jobs, in some cases probably more so.

I agree, but at the same time, who's demonizing trade schools? I've never heard anything like that. Maybe it's my area, but it's not something I've ever experienced.

 whembly wrote:

Um... Sanders would likely agree with me.

I doubt that.

 whembly wrote:

He's so fething far on the lefty ideology spectrum, normal lefties can't see him.

But that doesn't mean he supports the governments of Cuba and Venezuela, or seeks to emulate them. You're taking really far left on the American political spectrum, and equating it with two very particular forms of communism. This is intellectually dishonest.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I agree, but at the same time, who's demonizing trade schools? I've never heard anything like that. Maybe it's my area, but it's not something I've ever experienced.

It's just something that may have changed since I left high school over 10 years ago. But, at least when I was in school, the district was keen on pushing the agenda of "if you don't get a college degree you can never be successful" And I distinctly recall that, when I joined the military (I still had to finish my final year of HS as I was in the DEP) nearly every single teacher that I had heavily frowned on the idea. All except 4 that I can recall. 1 was a vet himself, and the other 3 were football coaches that saw the military as a career where one could stay in "great" shape, etc.

I know that at my daughter's school (she's in 1st grade) they are already pushing college as THE success path with various slogans and pictures on the walls and that sort of thing. But, because it's elementary school, I'm not seeing such a strong push as I would expect to see in a high school. One of the mottoes/slogans at her school is "Rams are College Bound!"

That's different. Probebly the area I'm form, I guess. I'd say at least 35-40% of the kids that were in my graduating class were going right into the workforce, with some going into trade schools/apprenticeships. Quite a few headed towards the military as well.

 whembly wrote:

Actually, Rubio is still correct.

That’s because there are nearly one million jobs related to welding and machinery, and just about 23,000 jobs related to teaching philosophy. Median wage is therefore an idiotic measure between “philosophers” v. “welders”. That same Labor Bureau estimates that by 2024 the demands for welder will be over 400,000.

Getting a BA in philosophy does not restrict one to being a philosopher. Indeed, I suspect the vast majority of people with philosophy BAs don't actually work in philosophy. In fact I would guess that if the median wage were restricted to people working in philosophy the gap would be much larger as even non-tenure professors earn a minimum of around 45k a year, well over the medians for all holders of philosophy degrees and welders.

 whembly wrote:

Rubio was saying was obvious... you will have a better chance at a decent paying job in welding than you will as a professional philosopher.

But that isn't what Rubio said, that's what you're saying. You're putting words into Rubio's mouth.

 whembly wrote:
I am not talking about the pie-in-the-sky, non-existent brand of socialism that is embraced by the left, but the real socialism practiced in the real world. The one that enslaves people, that poisons their cultures, that murders them for disobedience or sometimes, simply for mere convenience. Those are the hard facts in those countries that Sanders (many Democrats for that matter) willfully turn a blind eye on because it isn't the "real socialism" as described in their textbooks.

So let's give it a chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaance.

Funny enough, he sometimes forget that this isn't the 70's anymore and the scandinavian countries are NOT the socialist countries he believes they are... but, forgive him 'cuz he's totes kewl!

You got really, really defensive and angry a few months ago when people on this forum described you as a "low information voter", but then you keep posting stuff like this, which indicates you don't really know what you're talking about, and since it's been discussed on here many, many times, you really don't intend to learn more, either.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's different. Probebly the area I'm form, I guess. I'd say at least 35-40% of the kids that were in my graduating class were going right into the workforce, with some going into trade schools/apprenticeships. Quite a few headed towards the military as well.

And see, I personally think that this is pretty close to what happens in the majority of the US. Last time I sat down to really count, in my graduating class of 480-something people, we had 24 that had joined the military within 12 months of graduation. There were 7 who had signed up prior to graduating. I know of a large number (couldn't give you a percentage) who still have yet to work a real job due to deciding it was better to settle down and start a family, many more who simply went to work. We also had the highest number of girls pregnant at the time of graduation in the entire city (6 public high schools and 2-3 private ones). The school had, and still has the highest number of minorities, the highest or second highest rate of delinquency, highest or second highest rate of kids on free or reduced meals, etc. Hell, our arch-rivalry football game featured a pretty massive (for our city) police escort for visiting fans to our school. But, for all the negative, I don't want to paint a picture like this school was in south-central LA, where a bloods vs. crips fight would break out at random, or we'd be featured on a documentary about gang violence. Usually, it was a pretty good, diverse school to be at.

I would frankly like to see the school system supporting reality, rather than wishful thinking. 100% of a graduating class entering community colleges or a 4 year school is simply unattainable. Sad fact is, after I left HS, with continuing budget cuts, my school went from having among the best "life prep" opportunities to, if it wasn't basic Ed or music, the school didn't offer it. When I was in, I took a welding class, there was CAD and other in depth computer sciences, there was traditional home-ec (as in, sewing, cooking, child-rearing type stuff), basically there was a whole range of courses that were offered that could give students "real life" skills.


Fact is, and I think we all know this, "success" isn't a one size fits all metric. You can't really put a dollar amount on it. For some, it's going to be having steady income, a house, spouse and 2.5 kids, slaving away at a crap job to take a 2 week vacation each year. For others, it will be a PhD, accolades and fancy crap. Why shouldn't we have an education system where kids can learn a bit about what they do and don't like BEFORE they leave the K-12 system? We sure as hell shouldn't be frowning on kids wanting to join the military (once I become a teacher, I sure as hell won't, but then, I'm also a vet and it's the military that got me to this position I'm in now), and we shouldn't be having kids grow up thinking that 4+ years of college and potentially mountains of debt is the only means to "success"

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Why shouldn't we have an education system where kids can learn a bit about what they do and don't like BEFORE they leave the K-12 system? We sure as hell shouldn't be frowning on kids wanting to join the military (once I become a teacher, I sure as hell won't, but then, I'm also a vet and it's the military that got me to this position I'm in now), "

I disagree. I firmly think we should discourage kids from wanting to join the military, because the military is absolutely out of control in this country.

It's an enormous drain on our economy at a time when our national infrastructure is crumbling.

It produces nearly nothing useful domestically other than for it's own purposes.

Whenever cuts are proposed to it, inevitably people scream about the jobs that would be lost, as if the purpose of the military is a fething jobs program/corporate welfare generator, instead of being for the common defense of this nation. (This, when "socialism" is a dirty word. Hilarious.)

It's much, much larger than it needs to be...



...and despite that, we functionally have not won a war since WW2.


It's so large that it leads to hammer/nail thinking: at some point since we spent all this money on it, we feel like we need to use it, which leads to us being stuck in huge foreign quagmires that actually make the world even more dangerous than it was before. It's like spending a quarter of your paycheck on a security system that attracts burglars.

It's so large that it lends itself to accounting procedures that would send civilian CEO's to jail, like the $43 million dollar gas station that no one knows how it got built, or why, or the $35 million dollar base that the Pentagon knew it would never use but somehow couldn't cancel the construction of, and so on, and so forth. That's before we get into the plane that cost more than the entire Iraq war.

At some point we need to, as conservatives like to say, starve the beast.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:



The one thing I will "agree" with Rubio on, is that we really do need to not be "demonizing" trade schools.

Question.

Who is demonizing trade schools?

 whembly wrote:

Actually, Rubio is still correct.

Actually, he isn't.

What data does he have to back up that claim? Oh that's right, none. I can see why you like him though, both of you just repeat stuff over and over again so you think that makes it true.

That’s because there are nearly one million jobs related to welding and machinery, and just about 23,000 jobs related to teaching philosophy. Median wage is therefore an idiotic measure between “philosophers” v. “welders”. That same Labor Bureau estimates that by 2024 the demands for welder will be over 400,000.

It's 'idiotic' to you because he proves Rubio was talking out of his ass. I know how this works.

Rubio was saying was obvious... you will have a better chance at a decent paying job in welding than you will as a professional philosopher.

Except that isn't what he said. He said that welders make more than philosophers, which income data proves is a false statement.

You need to understand something here... I wish that wasn't true. I wish it with all my heart. Unfortunately, not getting a degree will mean you make less money on average in this country. Some of us do better (I personally make way more than the average person with my level of education), but we're outliers. The other issue is this: you want to make more money working blue collar jobs? Join a union.

So this criticism of Rubio is weaksauce because... what... the Democrats are trying to tear him down? Why?

Why would his opponents say that he was correct (even though he isn't)? Did you forget how politics work?

He's the best candidate to beat HRC or Sanders.

Oh that's right, none. I can see why you like him though, both of you just repeat stuff over and over again so you think that makes it true.

Sounds like a good old case of TRUTHINESS!

you want to make more money working blue collar jobs? Join a union.

It's a sad day when truth can be used to troll (gonna go troll Yahoo Comments with this real quick)

 LordofHats wrote:

Who is demonizing trade schools?

Perhaps demonizing isn't the right word to use... But, if you'll recall way back to the Bush/Kerry campaigns, one of Kerry's bigger missteps was his remark about either going to college and being successful or "being stuck in the military"


Plus, you have offhand remarks by various politicians that while not explicitly looking down on working class, trades or other very necessary jobs, certainly do not look favorably on them. Usually this comes up anytime raising wages comes up (most often that comes down to the hilariously misinformed politician thinking that construction workers are truly a minimum wage job)



@Ouze, While I agree that military spending is out of control, I guess ultimately what I will not do is actively frown on anyone joining the military. That said, I won't sugar coat anything for them, and give them a more "real" picture of what I went through how I came out of it, etc. Basically, the things that recruiters will never really tell them. Yes, wars and spending on the DoD are ridiculous, and I agree that there are areas where cuts can be made, and they should be made. But, that doesn't detract from the valuable skills (depending on job) that one acquires, as well as the long term education benefits and sometimes health benefits.