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2016/01/13 19:55:14
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
I guess the interesting question to me here beyond the campaign is whether we'd actually want to change "natural born citizen" to include people who were born abroad to one or two US parents.
Not to sound xenophobic, but that specific requirement may have put that in there for a reason, you know?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 19:55:43
2016/01/13 19:55:22
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
skyth wrote: And Cruz showed his normal respectful and classy persona by boycotting the SotU address...
Nah, he didn't really boycott it, he was just too busy campaigning to be the next guy behind that microphone.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2016/01/13 21:48:07
Subject: Re:The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.
-Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, quoted in National Journal, November 4, 2010
We're lucky that the American right haven't wasted everyone's time with a procession of losers, last chancers and abysmal liars/no hopers whose main tactic has been to accuse him of everything from destroying the economy, to not being an American or being the actual anti-christ.
And they weren't even good at that.
So, in essence, we're left with a president who we're told over and over again is useless beyond belief in every way -- whilst simultaneously of course having the cunning and trustiness of an Sheik's Vizier.
Who the GOP was unable to beat.
Comes a point -- especially in politics -- when you've gotta stop yelling at the opposition and have a long hard look at yourself if you're not winning.
Course mirrors involve science so that's akin to witchcraft so that won't happen.
We're not winning?
Who has both the house and senate now?
Who kicked major assed during Obama's tenure in all the State govenorships and legislatures?
Yeah, doing great with those Governorships. I mean look at Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, he is just a booming success story. His state is only hemorrhaging jobs. Look at Illinois Governor Bruce Rauner, his state hasn't had a budget since July 1st and it is causing a lot of jobs built around helping those in need(Mental Health mainly) to shut down or cut back staff. (I got laid off from my job because of the State Budget)
2016/01/13 21:51:57
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Or that Michigan governor and that whole lead in the water thing going on.
Yes, I've got family in Flint, MI.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2016/01/13 22:16:23
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: I guess the interesting question to me here beyond the campaign is whether we'd actually want to change "natural born citizen" to include people who were born abroad to one or two US parents.
Not to sound xenophobic, but that specific requirement may have put that in there for a reason, you know?
they already allow that, it just involves some extra paperwork. Plenty of kids are born to service members overseas that are still considered natural citizens, ie Mccain.
the question is did Cruz's mom ever fill out the paperwork? if not than he's not. and if his mom did swear to be a canadian, than she stopped being an american so he's really just a canadian immigrant.
2016/01/13 22:24:26
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: I guess the interesting question to me here beyond the campaign is whether we'd actually want to change "natural born citizen" to include people who were born abroad to one or two US parents.
Not to sound xenophobic, but that specific requirement may have put that in there for a reason, you know?
they already allow that, it just involves some extra paperwork. Plenty of kids are born to service members overseas that are still considered natural citizens, ie Mccain.
the question is did Cruz's mom ever fill out the paperwork? if not than he's not. and if his mom did swear to be a canadian, than she stopped being an american so he's really just a canadian immigrant.
McCain was born on a military base which is considered US soil, pretty sure we haven't annexed Canada yet so it isn't US soil.
What? No corporate entity would ever screw people over. Clearly our real enemy is the government and their ability to pass regulations that could make my life more annoying, not big business and their ability to ignore regulations and dispassionately kill people until they do away with the regulations that shrink their profit margin.
jasper76 wrote: I guess the interesting question to me here beyond the campaign is whether we'd actually want to change "natural born citizen" to include people who were born abroad to one or two US parents.
Not to sound xenophobic, but that specific requirement may have put that in there for a reason, you know?
they already allow that, it just involves some extra paperwork. Plenty of kids are born to service members overseas that are still considered natural citizens, ie Mccain.
the question is did Cruz's mom ever fill out the paperwork? if not than he's not. and if his mom did swear to be a canadian, than she stopped being an american so he's really just a canadian immigrant.
Then why did the US Senate feel the need to pass a resolution allowing McCain to be eligible for the office?
This has not been adjudicated. A quick internet search will show that while plenty of legal scholars have opinions, the issue has never been decided by the courts (and may never be)
2016/01/13 23:05:48
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Ensis Ferrae wrote: While I don't know the details of the Romney situation, the McCain one is quite simple: Yes, he was born in Panama, but he was born in an American enclosure, which, similar to US military bases abroad, is considered sovereign US Territory.
US military bases are not considered US soil for citizenship purposes. If a child born on a military installation is determined to be a citizen, the parents have to go to the nearest consulate and fill out a Consular Report of Birth Abroad with documents proving that the parents are American citizens.
The Panama Canal Zone was a special case because it was considered an unorganized territory (somewhere that is held by the US but not a state or Washington, DC).
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2016/01/13 23:12:48
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
So should we allow people born to US citizens outside of the US to hold the office of POTUS? The requirement that the POTUS be naturally born was clearly instituted to limit or avoid foreign influence in the high office.
I honestly don't really think that having a US citizen as a parent alleviates this concern. At first pass, it seems like it shouldn't matter, until you start thinking about it...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 23:14:03
2016/01/13 23:23:20
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Wow, that's some baldfaced corruption there. I don't know how Florida's ethics laws are, but someone should take them to court. At the very least it might lose them an election.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
2016/01/13 23:35:50
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: So should we allow people born to US citizens outside of the US to hold the office of POTUS? The requirement that the POTUS be naturally born was clearly instituted to limit or avoid foreign influence in the high office.
I honestly don't really think that having a US citizen as a parent alleviates this concern. At first pass, it seems like it shouldn't matter, until you start thinking about it...
Being born on US soil doesn't limit or avoid foreign influence in the modern world. The internet has made sure of that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 23:36:31
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2016/01/13 23:47:53
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Wow, that's some baldfaced corruption there. I don't know how Florida's ethics laws are, but someone should take them to court. At the very least it might lose them an election.
Probably a good thing that the governorship is not up for election this year, this might be one of those fringe issues that brings more democrats which would vote during the presidential race as well.
2016/01/14 00:00:10
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: I guess the interesting question to me here beyond the campaign is whether we'd actually want to change "natural born citizen" to include people who were born abroad to one or two US parents.
Not to sound xenophobic, but that specific requirement may have put that in there for a reason, you know?
they already allow that, it just involves some extra paperwork. Plenty of kids are born to service members overseas that are still considered natural citizens, ie Mccain.
the question is did Cruz's mom ever fill out the paperwork? if not than he's not. and if his mom did swear to be a canadian, than she stopped being an american so he's really just a canadian immigrant.
McCain was born on a military base which is considered US soil, pretty sure we haven't annexed Canada yet so it isn't US soil.
americans travel to all parts of the globe, this isn't a new issue and the procedures are in place even if an american parent has a child in Iran. It doesn't matter if it's a US base or not. The senate checked into the legality of Obama and Mccain and declared both of them could hold the office.
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.
According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.
The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity, unexpired U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.
Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to promptly document a child who meets the statutory requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.
Where is Ted's FS-240? I'm sure anyone wanting to hold the office with a valid 240 would be considered eligible.
2016/01/14 00:04:03
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: So should we allow people born to US citizens outside of the US to hold the office of POTUS? The requirement that the POTUS be naturally born was clearly instituted to limit or avoid foreign influence in the high office.
I honestly don't really think that having a US citizen as a parent alleviates this concern. At first pass, it seems like it shouldn't matter, until you start thinking about it...
Being born on US soil doesn't limit or avoid foreign influence in the modern world. The internet has made sure of that.
Well, that's an assertion. I don't believe it's a correct one. Maybe I should say what I mean by "foreign influence" as i9ts probably a loose term of me to use. What I mean by that is the possibility of placing the interests of a foreign nation above the interests of the United States.
2016/01/14 00:38:02
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: So should we allow people born to US citizens outside of the US to hold the office of POTUS? The requirement that the POTUS be naturally born was clearly instituted to limit or avoid foreign influence in the high office.
I honestly don't really think that having a US citizen as a parent alleviates this concern. At first pass, it seems like it shouldn't matter, until you start thinking about it...
Being born on US soil doesn't limit or avoid foreign influence in the modern world. The internet has made sure of that.
Well, that's an assertion. I don't believe it's a correct one. Maybe I should say what I mean by "foreign influence" as i9ts probably a loose term of me to use. What I mean by that is the possibility of placing the interests of a foreign nation above the interests of the United States.
Split loyalties may be the term you are looking for.
2016/01/14 00:39:59
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: I guess the interesting question to me here beyond the campaign is whether we'd actually want to change "natural born citizen" to include people who were born abroad to one or two US parents.
Not to sound xenophobic, but that specific requirement may have put that in there for a reason, you know?
they already allow that, it just involves some extra paperwork. Plenty of kids are born to service members overseas that are still considered natural citizens, ie Mccain.
the question is did Cruz's mom ever fill out the paperwork? if not than he's not. and if his mom did swear to be a canadian, than she stopped being an american so he's really just a canadian immigrant.
McCain was born on a military base which is considered US soil, pretty sure we haven't annexed Canada yet so it isn't US soil.
americans travel to all parts of the globe, this isn't a new issue and the procedures are in place even if an american parent has a child in Iran. It doesn't matter if it's a US base or not. The senate checked into the legality of Obama and Mccain and declared both of them could hold the office.
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.
According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.
The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity, unexpired U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.
Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to promptly document a child who meets the statutory requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.
Where is Ted's FS-240? I'm sure anyone wanting to hold the office with a valid 240 would be considered eligible.
And nowhere in here is the term "natural born citizen" used or even implied. As for the Senate, Obama does not even apply here as he was born in HawaiiI. McCain applies, but as has been said there is a distcinction to be made because he was born on US property, while Cruz was not, Also, I don't think a non-binding Senate resolution specific to John McCain tells us anything about Cruz's eligbility (a minor point worth noting is Cruz is despised even among his own party in the US Senate)
jasper76 wrote: So should we allow people born to US citizens outside of the US to hold the office of POTUS? The requirement that the POTUS be naturally born was clearly instituted to limit or avoid foreign influence in the high office.
I honestly don't really think that having a US citizen as a parent alleviates this concern. At first pass, it seems like it shouldn't matter, until you start thinking about it...
Being born on US soil doesn't limit or avoid foreign influence in the modern world. The internet has made sure of that.
Well, that's an assertion. I don't believe it's a correct one. Maybe I should say what I mean by "foreign influence" as i9ts probably a loose term of me to use. What I mean by that is the possibility of placing the interests of a foreign nation above the interests of the United States.
Split loyalties may be the term you are looking for.
Thank you, perfect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/14 00:40:20
2016/01/14 00:41:06
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Trump did file a lawsuit against Bill Maher for Maher's assertion that his father was an orangutan. I know we have zoos, but most orangutans are not born in the United States, and that's just a plain fact. So maybe they'd have a leg to stand on.
2016/01/14 01:03:24
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
jasper76 wrote: I guess the interesting question to me here beyond the campaign is whether we'd actually want to change "natural born citizen" to include people who were born abroad to one or two US parents.
Not to sound xenophobic, but that specific requirement may have put that in there for a reason, you know?
they already allow that, it just involves some extra paperwork. Plenty of kids are born to service members overseas that are still considered natural citizens, ie Mccain.
the question is did Cruz's mom ever fill out the paperwork? if not than he's not. and if his mom did swear to be a canadian, than she stopped being an american so he's really just a canadian immigrant.
McCain was born on a military base which is considered US soil, pretty sure we haven't annexed Canada yet so it isn't US soil.
americans travel to all parts of the globe, this isn't a new issue and the procedures are in place even if an american parent has a child in Iran. It doesn't matter if it's a US base or not. The senate checked into the legality of Obama and Mccain and declared both of them could hold the office.
A child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent or parents may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if certain statutory requirements are met. The child’s parents should contact the nearest U.S. embassy or consulate to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA) to document that the child is a U.S. citizen. If the U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.
According to U.S. law, a CRBA is proof of U.S. citizenship and may be used to obtain a U.S. passport and register for school, among other purposes.
The child’s parents may choose to apply for a U.S. passport for the child at the same time that they apply for a CRBA. Parents may also choose to apply only for a U.S. passport for the child. Like a CRBA, a full validity, unexpired U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.
Parents of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen or citizens should apply for a CRBA and/or a U.S. passport for the child as soon as possible. Failure to promptly document a child who meets the statutory requirements for acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth may cause problems for the parents and the child when attempting to establish the child’s U.S. citizenship and eligibility for the rights and benefits of U.S. citizenship, including entry into the United States. By law, U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.
Where is Ted's FS-240? I'm sure anyone wanting to hold the office with a valid 240 would be considered eligible.
And nowhere in here is the term "natural born citizen" used or even implied. As for the Senate, Obama does not even apply here as he was born in HawaiiI. McCain applies, but as has been said there is a distcinction to be made because he was born on US property, while Cruz was not, Also, I don't think a non-binding Senate resolution specific to John McCain tells us anything about Cruz's eligbility (a minor point worth noting is Cruz is despised even among his own party in the US Senate)
jasper76 wrote: So should we allow people born to US citizens outside of the US to hold the office of POTUS? The requirement that the POTUS be naturally born was clearly instituted to limit or avoid foreign influence in the high office.
I honestly don't really think that having a US citizen as a parent alleviates this concern. At first pass, it seems like it shouldn't matter, until you start thinking about it...
Being born on US soil doesn't limit or avoid foreign influence in the modern world. The internet has made sure of that.
Well, that's an assertion. I don't believe it's a correct one. Maybe I should say what I mean by "foreign influence" as i9ts probably a loose term of me to use. What I mean by that is the possibility of placing the interests of a foreign nation above the interests of the United States.
Split loyalties may be the term you are looking for.
Thank you, perfect.
The "natural born citizen" requirement in Article 1 of the US constitution does not refer to people with birthright citizenship, that would literally be impossible. Birthright citizenship, granting citizenship to anyone born in the US, did not exist until the ratification of the 14th amendment in 1866. There is no way that the founders believed that being born in the US granted a person US citizenship in 1789. The location of Cruz's place of birth is irrelevant, all that matters is the citizenship of his parents.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2016/01/14 01:16:13
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
Cruz's place of birth is relevant, since his status as a "natural born citizen" can be contested. Also relevant is the fact that until 2 years ago, he was a citizen of Canada. That might set well with you because its a friendly ally like Canada, but I'm not sure it's the wisest of precedents to set.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/14 01:18:28
2016/01/14 01:23:38
Subject: The Political Junkie™ Thread - USA Edition
