Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi all,

have an opponent in or league with Throgs Trolls,
2000-3000 points

18 of them in a horde formation,
with the following characters;
exalted hero of chaos with Blasted Standard to hamper ranged attacks
Throg with some extra beat down item
brayshamen with Blackened Plate to negate flame attacks

I run Wood Elves/Eternity King and Lizardmen

so far he's crushed me twice
I've been putting (too much?) faith in magic buffs,
but he seems to always be able to shut down my buffs
or de-buffs right as we get into combat

my last next hope will be pin him and pop the rest of his army...
I just can't find the Muscle to crack that block
(tried with 10 Kroxigar buffed with +4 Toughness, they lasted 3 rounds,
and large block of Eternal Guard Spearmen, lasted 2 rounds)

any suggestions/advice?
thanks!

You can't kill it in combat.

Since the 8th ed WoC book, I've seen that unit beaten once. And then, it was because the WoC was playing one of the top skaven generals in the country.

I'd use a scar vet to kill the shaman. The trade off is worth it. Then use your slaan burn it to death.

Remember that the Blasted Standard only works on shooting too.

I want to also try using my shadow mage to cast The Enfeebling Foe,
then the Life Mage cast Dwellers Below,

but either the new End Times magic phase isnt as good for
powerful combos,
or this guy was just very lucky with his dispells

They're all initiative one. Shadow is very good on Woodies, so I'd recommend a large pit of shades in the center of the unit (also hitting Throgg) every turn. Purple Sun can be even better because it travels, but it is riskier.

Aside from initiative-based nuke spells, just kill the rest of his army and feed that unit chaff. He shouldn't have much (if any) shooting that can clear your's.

I feel your pain. I have a friend who plays ogres and runs a unit of 20 bulls. Don't do just hate monstrous infantry supporting attacks in a horde? Bottom, line, don't fight it in combat. You really can't.

Stock up on chaff units and stall it out. You'll need multiple layers of them, but if he's only killing a couple hundred points of skinks all game with them, while you lambast everything else he's got on the table, then that's a win!

Thanks guys!

time to put together some sacrificial small units!

NOLA Chris wrote:
Thanks guys!

time to put together some sacrificial small units!

Eagles. They're amazing. Or reavers.

As for the unit...yeah don't fight that. It's a giant wound sponge that takes no damage and just grinds you out. Just chaff it all game with feigned-flight fast cav and eagles.

If you want to kill it then death or shadow. Death is nice because Throgg is only LD8. Kill him and the bray shaman and those trolls are stupid on LD nothing. Shadow works too.

Well the problem is that you have to challenge with the characters due to will of chaos. That's how I was able to kill the whole unit with NAgash, lock up characters and when they die it runs.

So lizardmen. Oldblood on coldone, blade of realities is solid, but may not drop throgg before he swings. Piranna blade+ steg helm may help too.

Eternity king? Imrik would do just fine, even more so with a frostheart in the flank.

I suggest a c-c-c-c-c-c-combo.

In the same combat:
1. High Init Flaming unit/char, to do at least 1 wound to strip regen. For instance elf cavalry in the flank with a flame banner. IIRC blackened plate doesn't negate flame, but provides a 4++ to the unit, meaning you CAN still strip regen.
2. lower init hitty unit to take advantage of stripped regen. Say a Horde of White Lions/Execs with Regen or a ward save of their own. Their attacks aren't flaming, so blackened plate doesn't apply.

However, this still wants some buffs/debuffs to limit the damage you take back, so the avoidance game is still your best bet.

Indeed, the Blackened plate only works against flaming attacks, once you get through with one hit, the models at lower initiative can get through without flaming.

Good point on the Blackened Plate limitation!
I hadn't thought of that...
thank you!

If you wanna engage at range:

Blasted standard has 0 impact on successful poison rolls, which don't roll to wound.

It has reduced impact on Starfire shots, which at str1 with +1 to wound, still wound on 5s, vs 4's normally. And every so often you'll be hitting at str 6, so wounding on Not Ones.

So if you want to whittle them down pre-combat, shoot first with starfire to negate regen, then with hagbane to kill things.

Finally, that unit is something like 1200 points in one place. I don't think the muscle you've thrown at it is anything like that many points, so its not surprising you've lost.

I believe a Bray Shammy cant use Blackend Plate as it's Magical Armor. It must be a standard Wargor/Gorebull or a Chaos Scorcerer if it's a Wizard.

If you have the models, using a unit of Sisters of the Thorn with a Deathweaver can be super useful. You can circle around the I2 trolls all day and just throw purple suns through them.

If he saves all his dice for that, hitting him with Doom and Darkness drops his leadership to a 5 for the purposes of stupidity, and then you can use Spirit Leech to pick out Throgg and his BSB. (Your leadership is higher by default anyways.)

As was pointed out, the shaman cannot take magic armor.

The combo charge can do it.
6 Wild riders into the flank with the flaming banner, and 56 wild wood rangers into the front, deployed 14 wide and 4 deep (everyone gets to swing!).

Wild Wood rangers fight in 4 ranks (horde + martial) and the front rank gains an attack, and re-rolls 1's to wound (murderous). That's 70 S5 attacks, against a unit that they hit on 3+, and wound on 3+ (re-rolling 1's), and the trolls already lost the regen thanks to the flaming wilder riders ASF.
Wild Wood rangers average 36 wounds, Wild Riders average 6.5 wounds (if somebody has black plate), and then the mounts do another 3 wounds.
If you can get the combo charge in, you're scoring a crazy 45 to 46 wounds, before the unit swings.

For lizards, you're going to need to chaff it, and magic it to death. The Solar Bastiladons can strip regen (flaming bound spell) and then just pummel it with everything you've got.

On the topic of magic beat downs, if he's using a wizard in the unit, consider a hex scroll. Having an attached characters Movement drop to 1 slows down the whole bus and pins it.

Also the lizard answer that people haven't given with lizards is out manuver and challenge. solo charge an Oldblood cowboy in and challenge, then put some stuff in his rear/flank for static rez to not straight loose the combat and profit.

A properly tooled OB should be able to take if not grind out anything he has in that unit for heroes and throgg. Strip out his static res (even better if you can disrupt) and once you take out the heros that is a huge pile of points that is fairely easy to wipe out. ("yes please attack my oldblood with 2 trolls and see who gets more wounds through")

The unit can be dismantled with an OB a Scarvet and a Scarvet all cowboys if properly built. and the rest of his army (and your points) is hillarious to clean up or just throw additional multi units into it from bad angles just for more res.

IMO fantasy is won in movement phase not rolling a ton of dice in CC. Use that to your advantage and precise strike to pin him then move support in where it is to your advantage.

Really? a (IMO even a oldblood) scarvet cowboy will get munched by throgg in a challenge, flaming breath attack at str5 no armour save then 5 str 8 attacks will make mincemeat out of a scar vet. You would have to get very lucky with pred fighter rolls and over to hit rolls then your to wounds rolls (assuming he hasnt got a GW) and opponent to get unlucky with regen rolls to kill throgg before he swings.

Anything you put in the rear or side will bled combat rez to trolls from their attacks and stomps, your opponent would have to be bad to let you get a rear charge off with a big unit, flank would be possible though.

MarkyMark wrote:
Really? a (IMO even a oldblood) scarvet cowboy will get munched by throgg in a challenge, flaming breath attack at str5 no armour save then 5 str 8 attacks will make mincemeat out of a scar vet. You would have to get very lucky with pred fighter rolls and over to hit rolls then your to wounds rolls (assuming he hasnt got a GW) and opponent to get unlucky with regen rolls to kill throgg before he swings.

Anything you put in the rear or side will bled combat rez to trolls from their attacks and stomps, your opponent would have to be bad to let you get a rear charge off with a big unit, flank would be possible though.

Agreed. Throgs a beast.

MarkyMark wrote:
Really? a (IMO even a oldblood) scarvet cowboy will get munched by throgg in a challenge, flaming breath attack at str5 no armour save then 5 str 8 attacks will make mincemeat out of a scar vet. You would have to get very lucky with pred fighter rolls and over to hit rolls then your to wounds rolls (assuming he hasnt got a GW) and opponent to get unlucky with regen rolls to kill throgg before he swings.

Anything you put in the rear or side will bled combat rez to trolls from their attacks and stomps, your opponent would have to be bad to let you get a rear charge off with a big unit, flank would be possible though.

Throggs breathe isn't flaming IIRC, which is better for Throgg, as a 2+ ward vs flaming is dirt cheap.
What lizardmen do have going for them is Carnisaurs. Trogg is swinging last, and breathing at init 2. Old blood swings at 3, and the carnisaur swings at init 2, ahead of the trolls.

Take a Steggadon Ancient, as a mount for a skink Chief BSB, who's packing the flaming banner.
Then take 2 scar vets and 2 old bloods on carnisaurs (give them spears). It does 30 to 40 unsaved wounds on the charge, enough where most of the units are surviving to swing 1st again should their be a 2nd round of combat.

Or just run a Slann and nuke that death star with magic.

Take Lore of Undeath and put 100 points of zombies 1" in front of the unit!

Deploy it as narrow as possible. It doesn't matter what you deal out, just that as few as possible can hit you. If they last more that one turn you're quids in.

Or create an ethereal unit in his face!