Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I am moving on to paint my Techmarines for my Imperial Fist army and I am trying to be as close to fluff as possible when painting them but there seems to be so many conflicting sources on the true color of their armor that it is driving me bonkers and I wanted to get at least a consensus should be. In the Codex, it basically says that a Techmarine is much like a Librarian, Chaplain and Apothecary where the majority of their armor is the color of their station with their pauldrons colored in the manner of their chapter but then you go into the gallery of the codex to get some ideas and there is a freaking Salamander Techmarine who is the gunner for the TFC in mostly green armor with only his right pauldron painted red with the AdMech symbol on it along with his helmet and the arms of his servo harness actually painted in AdMech red but then there is another Techmarine later in the gallery who is the HQ choice decked out in AdMech red with only his left pauldron showing his chapter symbol. The only thing I can think of is does it matter depending on what the Techmarine is assigned to? Does it possibly vary by Chapter? Some Chapters take it more seriously to paint their armor AdMech red out of respect while others want to keep more loyalty to the Chapter? And then most representations of the Techmarines in the WH40K video games aligns more with the Salamander Techmarine than the other full AdMech red Techmarine. I was kind of leaning towards what the picture that is provided in the fluff entry of the Techmarine where it shows a White Scar Techmarine with mostly red armor and his left arm and pauldron are painted in Chapter colors. So yeah, any clarification or just opinions would be great.

Then there is the question of whether or not the pilots of the Stormravens and Stormtalons are Techmarines as it looks like with the symbols on their armor or are they just normal Marines in a specialized flight armor who would be using Chapter colors?

I dunno about storm ravens but yes the ones piloting stormtalons are tech marines

Chapter Serfs and Servitors are generally the ones piloting the vehicles. Techmarines are too valuable to waste on such a mundane task. That being said, Techmarines still have the ability to.

It *is* the same as with Librarians, Apothecaries and Chaplains, in that it varies, seemingly from marine to marine.

This is the (admittedly ancient) spread for medics from RT:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/c/c7/Apothecaries_RT_era.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130915024113

3rd row, 3rd column: "Regulation Imperial Issue Battledress" - generic, no chapter, yet not one of the actual chapter specific examples actually uses it in accordance with regulations.

Admittedly that's old, but the modern Librarian Index Astartes article was similar, Raven Guard, Salamanders and White Scars were all shown using far less blue than dictated by regulations.

Basically marines are individuals, some prefer to use the regulation markings as is, some prefer to use a variation. Take a look at the Ultramarines Second Company spread in the codex, all of the marines use codex approved markings but none of the squads use the exact same squad marking throughout the squad (only the tenth comes close, but some have black numerals on the markings, some have white numerals on the shoulderpad).

fethng sqauts, stole everyone's thunder...

However, as far as I know, there were no uniform markings back the RT days, unless it's in the Compilations. So that image Gashrog posted, while certainly interesting, unfortunately doesn't speak much for today's marine markings.

On the other hand Gashrog is right about the markings being different from chapter to chapters. How the Imperial Fists does it, is probably not specified, but it is probably the AdMech red with chapter colors on one of the Pauldrons

I went with the RT image (its from the medic article in the Compendium, the Chaplain article was the same albeit without art) because it was handy and illustrates the general trend which is now once again common (as opposed to 2nd edition everyone tended to follow the regulations to a tee).

Yes, the pilot of the Stormraven, and the Stormtalon, is a techmarine.

As for colors, there is no right way to paint your specialists. The Imperial Fists probably follow the codex and paint mostly red with chapter pauldrons.

But overall the Codex is what you call guidelines more than actual rules.

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno about storm ravens but yes the ones piloting stormtalons are tech marines

Well if you have a codex, and I don't you can turn to page twelve which says exactly "squads of the 7th Company are trained to fight with... Stormtalons."

And if you read the BL short story Doom Flight by some fellow with a strange name, which I haven't, the characters are two storm talon pilots who are not tech marines, and one pilot who is a techmarine.

Now, if it turns out that the storm talon kit uses the same vehicle accessory spruce as all the other space marine vehicles, and was made originally for the Land Raider which does always have a techmarine crewman, then the only source of information you could possibly have is pretty useless. I don't know though, I've never seen the storm talon sprues.

Land raiders aren't crewed by techmarines. Just because the vehicle accessory sprue armour has cogs on it doesn't make the wearer a techmarine. It means that the armour and weapons belong under the authority of the techmarines.
I think those "techmarine" parts are just meant to differentiate marines working with armour. Soldiers assigned to tanks have different helmets and uniforms than infantry in the real world so this is GWs attempt to show different equipment.
All marine armour is crewed by marines. The drivers could be attached to the armoury, one of the reserve companies or a line company.
There aren't enough techmarines in a chapter to waste them as pilots and drivers, they would spend most of their time maintaining and repairing equipment.

Computron wrote:
Land raiders aren't crewed by techmarines. Just because the vehicle accessory sprue armour has cogs on it doesn't make the wearer a techmarine. It means that the armour and weapons belong under the authority of the techmarines.
I think those "techmarine" parts are just meant to differentiate marines working with armour. Soldiers assigned to tanks have different helmets and uniforms than infantry in the real world so this is GWs attempt to show different equipment.
All marine armour is crewed by marines. The drivers could be attached to the armoury, one of the reserve companies or a line company.
There aren't enough techmarines in a chapter to waste them as pilots and drivers, they would spend most of their time maintaining and repairing equipment.

Markings are taken very seriously by Space Marines ( like knights won't ignore Heraldry ).

Cogwheel and skull are the symbol of the techmarines. They are not used by any other marine.

Each Thunder Fire Cannon has a crew of 1 Tech-marine. So per GW Chapters have as many Techmarines as they field TFC at once....
Storm Raven pilots are not built from an accessory sprue and their markings are..... yes Techmarine. Land Raider accessory sprue marines are painted red by GW. The red of the mechanicum.
Codex space marine / Vehicle crews / page 15 says the crew sports the number of the vehicle. It doesn't say the crew are a bunch of imposters clad in Techmarine colors.

There is basically no real problem, since space marines are compatible plastic parts and if you don't like to have "so many" / "too many" Techmarines in your force, just assemble them differently.

It did used to be canon that every Land Raider did have *A* Techmarine custodian, but not both crewmen. The Land Raider Index Astartes article included two notable Land Raider engagements and both mentioned the notable crews as being one Techmarine and one other:
"One of the most famous stories in the history of the Red Talon Space Marine Chapter is that of Techmarine Clearn, his driver Marine Rillan and their Land Raider Eagle's Claw"
&
"Commander Sien and his Techmarine dismounted.."

Whilst the notable Ultramarine Techmarine in the Techmarine Index Astartes article was noted: "His service to the Emperor was very nearly cut short on Ichar IV when a rampaging Tyranid Carnifex ripped apart the Land Raider he was driving."

 1hadhq wrote:

Cogwheel and skull are the symbol of the techmarines. They are not used by any other marine.

Quoted for Truth. If they were, Sergeant Chronus would have it - he doesn't.

 Gashrog wrote:
It did used to be canon that every Land Raider did have *A* Techmarine custodian, but not both crewmen. The Land Raider Index Astartes article included two notable Land Raider engagements and both mentioned the notable crews as being one Techmarine and one other:
"One of the most famous stories in the history of the Red Talon Space Marine Chapter is that of Techmarine Clearn, his driver Marine Rillan and their Land Raider Eagle's Claw"
&
"Commander Sien and his Techmarine dismounted.."

Whilst the notable Ultramarine Techmarine in the Techmarine Index Astartes article was noted: "His service to the Emperor was very nearly cut short on Ichar IV when a rampaging Tyranid Carnifex ripped apart the Land Raider he was driving."

 1hadhq wrote:

Cogwheel and skull are the symbol of the techmarines. They are not used by any other marine.

Quoted for Truth. If they were, Sergeant Chronus would have it - he doesn't.

I don't see how the Land Raiders couldn't be under the authority of a Techmarine and be his responsibility but be piloted by someone else. I would think that a single Techmarine would be responsible for several Land Raiders and be able to pilot one of them if he wished to, though it isn't a requirement. Just bearing the symbol doesn't mean that the Techmarine HAS to be the one driving, simply the one in charge.

 1hadhq wrote:


Cogwheel and skull are the symbol of the techmarines. They are not used by any other marine.

They appear on dreads and on the land raider itself - on the engine.
Cog is a symbol of the mechanicum, tech marines only wear them because they're trained by the mechanicum - it's like a badge to show that they're worthy of working with the sacred machines. Cog as a symbol is on things that are considered under the control of the mechanicum in some way - it also appears on the engine of the baneblade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 1hadhq wrote:


Each Thunder Fire Cannon has a crew of 1 Tech-marine. So per GW Chapters have as many Techmarines as they field TFC at once....

Realistically a marine would fire the thing with some sort of auto-loader or maybe the cannons are so rare that a chapter only has one or two of them, probably the later.

Storm Raven pilots are not built from an accessory sprue and their markings are..... yes Techmarine. Land Raider accessory sprue marines are painted red by GW. The red of the mechanicum.

Yah, but GW have been painting vehicle crews on rhinos etc red for a long time yet nothing elsewhere says they're techmarines. It may be that red is the colour of the armoury marines that permanently serve as tank crew. Or the painter just thought it looked cool, they're not known for consistency in their art!

Codex space marine / Vehicle crews / page 15 says the crew sports the number of the vehicle. It doesn't say the crew are a bunch of imposters clad in Techmarine colors.

See above re colour. The codex also repeats the part where one of the reserve companies is trained to use fliers.
It makes no sense to waste the limited number of techmarines as pilots. Of course I don't know why they'd use marines as pilots in a dedicated fighter as it's not meant to land so the chances of the pilot having to engage on the ground are really low, so why put a marine in there at all?

Computron wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

Cogwheel and skull are the symbol of the techmarines. They are not used by any other marine.

They appear on dreads and on the land raider itself - on the engine.

The Seal of approval of the mechanicum, represented by the Chapters Techmarines is the same Machina Opus they wear as badge of office.
Seems the Tech guys love that thing very much.
Plus a vehicle isn't a marine. Badges at shoulderpads =/= certified engines.

Computron wrote:

Cog is a symbol of the mechanicum, tech marines only wear them because they're trained by the mechanicum - it's like a badge to show that they're worthy of working with the sacred machines. Cog as a symbol is on things that are considered under the control of the mechanicum in some way - it also appears on the engine of the baneblade.

The Machina Opus grants access to Mars. The Space Marines wouldn't use it lightly.
The Book and horned skull of the Librarius, the prime helix of the Apothecarion, etc are badges displayed at shoulderpads. The use of a symbol at a shoulderpad isn't the same as a building marked with it to show it belongs to a certain part of a chapters organization.

Insignium Astartes / GW 2002 / page 62 Honour Badges.
Machina Opus
"....only the Chapters Techmarines and their equipment are permitted to display that icon."

Computron wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

Each Thunder Fire Cannon has a crew of 1 Tech-marine. So per GW Chapters have as many Techmarines as they field TFC at once....

Realistically a marine would fire the thing with some sort of auto-loader or maybe the cannons are so rare that a chapter only has one or two of them, probably the later.

The TFC has a Techmarine in Pics, in fluff and in rules. Every place is filled with the combo of TFC and Techmarine.
So realism has no Place in 40k....

Computron wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

Storm Raven pilots are not built from an accessory sprue and their markings are..... yes Techmarine. Land Raider accessory sprue marines are painted red by GW. The red of the mechanicum.

Yah, but GW have been painting vehicle crews on rhinos etc red for a long time yet nothing elsewhere says they're techmarines. It may be that red is the colour of the armoury marines that permanently serve as tank crew. Or the painter just thought it looked cool, they're not known for consistency in their art!

Insignium Astartes GW 2002 ( Alan Merett ).Page 43:
Techmarines.
"The Techmarines uniform and insignia is unusual since it bears only modest reference to the Chapter. All Techmarines, irrespective of Chapter, wear red power armour. Chapter affiliation is displayed on a suitably decorated shoulder pad and the suit will display the Machina Opus badges of a Tech-Priest but otherwise their armour is free of unit, tactical or organisational markings. If there are ranks within the Armoury only the Techmarines are aware of them, and they are habitually secretive of such matters."

So Machina Opus + red PA isn't some painters idea, but a part of the background written by the guy who got a position at GW to "care" for the fluff.

Computron wrote:

 1hadhq wrote:

Codex space marine / Vehicle crews / page 15 says the crew sports the number of the vehicle. It doesn't say the crew are a bunch of imposters clad in Techmarine colors.

See above re colour. The codex also repeats the part where one of the reserve companies is trained to use fliers.

See above too.
The first time I have read about tactical markings of vehicle crews beeing vehicle numbers is a dex of 6th ed. Vehicles of the Armoury, aren't like bikes and land speeders and storm talons handed to specific companies to ride.
A marine ordered to act as vehicle crew ( Predator for example ) and a reserve company equipped with 100% bikes from the general reserve of the Chapter instead of jumppacks of their own company are apples and oranges.

Computron wrote:

It makes no sense to waste the limited number of techmarines as pilots.

Sense is to GW like sega cartrigdes are to nintendo consoles. Don't try to make them fit.

Computron wrote:
Of course I don't know why they'd use marines as pilots in a dedicated fighter as it's not meant to land so the chances of the pilot having to engage on the ground are really low, so why put a marine in there at all?

Because the resilience of the Space Marine plus the cool factor of an 100% space marine force override any chance of well thought fluff. There are a lot of support duties that a capable person would have the chapter serfs do.

Well, considering all that, I will be painting my Techmarines in red power armor with the correct Pauldron and for my purposes that arm, will be painting in chapter colors.

My pilots since they bear the Machina Opus will also be painted red seeing as only a Techmarine would be wearing that badge of honor.

Also, I kind of think when it says that the Chapter has x amount of Techmarines, it is only counting the Techmarines that aren't assigned specific duties and they are there to have a broad oversight of the entire Chapters machines so the Techmarine Gunners and the Techmarine pilots are counted when they count the unit that they are attached to so when a Chapters says that it has 10 Stormtalons for example, that is counting the 10 Techmarines with them without explicitly saying it. In actual military this is how things are done, a crew goes with it's machines and when you count the machine, you count it's crew without including the numbers within your other infantry counts. I hope that makes sense.

Techmarines are supposed to wear red armour of the Mechanicus, but like all things it can vary. The just depends on how 'Eavy Metal felt like painting that day.


And yes, Techmarines pilot Stormravens and Stormtalons. Source? The WD issue where Stormravens came out says its piloted by a Techmarine and Stormtalon too.

 1hadhq wrote:


The Seal of approval of the mechanicum, represented by the Chapters Techmarines is the same Machina Opus they wear as badge of office.
Seems the Tech guys love that thing very much.
Plus a vehicle isn't a marine. Badges at shoulderpads =/= certified engines.

Except dreds are marines. They might be near dead ones missing most of their original bits, but they remain marines.
We'll have to agree to disagree on what the presence of the machina opus represents.

The Machina Opus grants access to Mars. The Space Marines wouldn't use it lightly.
The Book and horned skull of the Librarius, the prime helix of the Apothecarion, etc are badges displayed at shoulderpads. The use of a symbol at a shoulderpad isn't the same as a building marked with it to show it belongs to a certain part of a chapters organization.

Unfortunately GW has never produced an apothecarion building, nor a librarium, so that possibility can't be put to the test. It has produced a manufactorum though and that got lots of cogs.

Insignium Astartes / GW 2002 / page 62 Honour Badges.
Machina Opus
"....only the Chapters Techmarines and their equipment are permitted to display that icon."

As I was arguing though, perhaps poorly, the armour of the tank crews is more the property of the armoury and therefore has a closer connection to the techmarines than the armour used by other branches of the Chapter. In that case the opus on the armour is used to show the closer connection to the Chapter's techmarines that the tank crews enjoy.

 1hadhq wrote:

Each Thunder Fire Cannon has a crew of 1 Tech-marine. So per GW Chapters have as many Techmarines as they field TFC at once....

The TFC has a Techmarine in Pics, in fluff and in rules. Every place is filled with the combo of TFC and Techmarine.
So realism has no Place in 40k....

Pretty much this. Rule of cool wins out again.

Insignium Astartes GW 2002 ( Alan Merett ).Page 43:
Techmarines.
"The Techmarines uniform and insignia is unusual since it bears only modest reference to the Chapter. All Techmarines, irrespective of Chapter, wear red power armour. Chapter affiliation is displayed on a suitably decorated shoulder pad and the suit will display the Machina Opus badges of a Tech-Priest but otherwise their armour is free of unit, tactical or organisational markings. If there are ranks within the Armoury only the Techmarines are aware of them, and they are habitually secretive of such matters."

Written back when the only fliers were thunderhawks.

So Machina Opus + red PA isn't some painters idea, but a part of the background written by the guy who got a position at GW to "care" for the fluff.

I'm not disputing that, but the numbers of techmarines in a chapter have remained static - 27 for Ultras - while the tools only they can use keeps going up. That means at any given time most of these great weapons of war are useless because there aren't enough techmarines to use them.

The first time I have read about tactical markings of vehicle crews beeing vehicle numbers is a dex of 6th ed.

That's the first time it appears and I haven't seen any official artwork, models to show this. What it shows though is that the crew can have armour that represents symbols of the tank, such as cogs.

Sense is to GW like sega cartrigdes are to nintendo consoles. Don't try to make them fit.

Kind of the point of this forum though eh?

The correct answer to this question is "It's up to you."

Even for a chapter that has the answer explicitly spelled out.

Do YOU think techmarines should pilot things? Then they do pilot things!

Do YOU think that techmarines should keep their grubby little Adeptus Mechanicus fingers off the controls? Then they do NOT pilot things!

They're -your- dudes.

Computron wrote:

The first time I have read about tactical markings of vehicle crews beeing vehicle numbers is a dex of 6th ed.

That's the first time it appears and I haven't seen any official artwork, models to show this. What it shows though is that the crew can have armour that represents symbols of the tank, such as cogs.

I was rather surprised to see that make a comeback, the marking described is from 2nd edition/3rd edition (I don't believe the marking was described in 3rd, but all of the vehicles models in the 3e vanilla codex so still had the old markings).

For several reasons it makes sense for Space Marines, rather than serfs, to crew their vehicles. Most Chapters have a strong sense of brotherhood, and would not easily trust a non-Astartes to fight alongside them, never mind carry them into battle (in the case of transports). Space Marines as aircraft pilots would make good use of their superior reflexes, and all would benefit from their many decades, if not centuries, of experience. Finally, many vehicles are venerable relics that would never be entrusted to anyone, even an Astartes, lightly.

That said, it doesn't make sense that pilots would be exclusively Techmarines, but what if the Machina Opus is a symbol to certify that the pilot in question has been trained and approved by a Techmarine? The symbol proves that the individual is not only qualified, but trusted by the Master of the Forge to crew one of the Chapter's precious relics, as a pilot, gunner, or anything else.

In short, the Machina Opus on a non-Techmarine symbolises that the pilot carries the authority of a Techmarine/the Master of the Forge. It's not a trivialisation of the symbol.

That's how I explain it, anyway.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
For several reasons it makes sense for Space Marines, rather than serfs, to crew their vehicles. Most Chapters have a strong sense of brotherhood, and would not easily trust a non-Astartes to fight alongside them, never mind carry them into battle (in the case of transports). Space Marines as aircraft pilots would make good use of their superior reflexes, and all would benefit from their many decades, if not centuries, of experience. Finally, many vehicles are venerable relics that would never be entrusted to anyone, even an Astartes, lightly.

That said, it doesn't make sense that pilots would be exclusively Techmarines, but what if the Machina Opus is a symbol to certify that the pilot in question has been trained and approved by a Techmarine? The symbol proves that the individual is not only qualified, but trusted by the Master of the Forge to crew one of the Chapter's precious relics, as a pilot, gunner, or anything else.

In short, the Machina Opus on a non-Techmarine symbolises that the pilot carries the authority of a Techmarine/the Master of the Forge. It's not a trivialisation of the symbol.

That's how I explain it, anyway.

Ahh, I take it you've come from the rhino thread which covers this or was that your suggestion there? It's a good concept.

I said it here first, then I quoted myself in the Rhino thread. Thanks!

EDIT: We are currently discussing what Sergeant Chronus' lack of the Machina Opus means for the subject.

That has given me something to consider now because that does make sense. It gives the designation and lets us know that the pilot has been certified by a Techmarine to pilot the machine. I do know from my own experience in the military that there is the mech crew and the pilot crew which may work together but rarely do they share each other's jobs. Also pilots are usually high ranking. I don't know, I guess I am just going to have to decide that when I get around to painting my Stormtalon. This was so much easier when I painted over the cockpit.

So now all we need to know is why can you see the pilot at all, especially if it is a techmarine? The cockpit should be as armoured as the rest of the craft, pilots don't need to see given all the sensors they have.

Computron wrote:
So now all we need to know is why can you see the pilot at all, especially if it is a techmarine? The cockpit should be as armoured as the rest of the craft, pilots don't need to see given all the sensors they have.

But, then their vision is limited to only those sensors, which also can be damaged or disrupted.

jayko657 wrote:

Computron wrote:
So now all we need to know is why can you see the pilot at all, especially if it is a techmarine? The cockpit should be as armoured as the rest of the craft, pilots don't need to see given all the sensors they have.

But, then their vision is limited to only those sensors, which also can be damaged or disrupted.

Weak canopy means they're more likely to turn to goo but at least they'll see it coming.

Computron wrote:

jayko657 wrote:

Computron wrote:
So now all we need to know is why can you see the pilot at all, especially if it is a techmarine? The cockpit should be as armoured as the rest of the craft, pilots don't need to see given all the sensors they have.

But, then their vision is limited to only those sensors, which also can be damaged or disrupted.

Weak canopy means they're more likely to turn to goo but at least they'll see it coming.

But if they did have an armored canopy, and the sensors were knocked out, they would probably turn to goo in that case as well because lack of vision while trying to fly an aircraft usually leads to either crashing into something or being unable to dodge incoming fire.

I always thought the red Techmarines and blue Librarians were codex-compliances, not necessarily requirements, ergo it would vary based on how compliant a chapter is to the codex.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I always thought the red Techmarines and blue Librarians were codex-compliances, not necessarily requirements, ergo it would vary based on how compliant a chapter is to the codex.

They are.

Codex says

Librarians blue
Techmarines Red (Mechanicus colours)
Chaplains black with skull helm
Apothecary white with red Helix
In all cases, there should be the unit designation (Horned skull/Cog/Helix) on the left shoulder in the corresponding colour, and the chapter insignia on the right in the normal pauldron colours (so blue with correct trim for Ultras, as they have blue shoulders, but parchment white for Blood Ravens who have red armour, black trim and parchment shoulder pads).

 Deadshot wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I always thought the red Techmarines and blue Librarians were codex-compliances, not necessarily requirements, ergo it would vary based on how compliant a chapter is to the codex.

They are.

Codex says

Librarians blue
Techmarines Red (Mechanicus colours)
Chaplains black with skull helm
Apothecary white with red Helix
In all cases, there should be the unit designation (Horned skull/Cog/Helix) on the left shoulder in the corresponding colour, and the chapter insignia on the right in the normal pauldron colours (so blue with correct trim for Ultras, as they have blue shoulders, but parchment white for Blood Ravens who have red armour, black trim and parchment shoulder pads).

Was going to say, I know the Iron Hands have a lot of pure-black Techmarines and Iron Fathers but they're about as close to non-compliant (pre-Clan book wrecking everything) as you get.