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Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?

I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p


For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?

All on a Toughness 3 model with a 5+ save.

 Happyjew wrote:
All on a Toughness 3 model with a 5+ save.

I'm assuming you're complaining because it can be instant-deathed?

For a start, he has Eternal Warrior, so no he can't.

Also he has a 3++ save, not a 5+.

He *is* toughness 3 though, so you got that part right lol.

I think it's fairly balanced given how fragile the model is. Focus enough infantry small arms on it and he's bound to fail saves.

Not complaining about insta-gibbing. And I missed the part about 3+.

Not wanting to derail but does anyone else think Cegorach may actually be the Deceiver (C'Tan)?

 Happyjew wrote:
Not complaining about insta-gibbing. And I missed the part about 3+.

Unless Eternal Warrior has changed, he can't be instagibbed, so no big weapons are likely to do much damage to him.

However CustomLime is right, the Solitaire's weakness will be lots of small arms fire. But then thats the weakness of a lot of good units.


Looking at the points cost, the solitaire does seem to be essentially an Assassin (same points, same rule about being a loner... think its even the same armour save?). So I expect it will be run as a new much faster close combat assassin character (on paper he seems a lot better than the current CC assassins).

The Harlequins seem a bit pricey - especially after you start kitting them out. I wouldn't want to take them naked, but 23pts a model with the Caress is damn expensive for T3 guys.

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Not wanting to derail but does anyone else think Cegorach may actually be the Deceiver (C'Tan)?

Apparently the answer is no. There's a few reasons for this, but I dont have links for them so I'll let someone else quote, if they know lol.

Niiru wrote:
Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?

I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p


For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?

I guess that I missed something.
The rules for the Solitaire are out?
I know this guy very well from the Gav Thorpe codex.
He has been a one man wrecking machine with 13 attacks on the charge.

Does he cost less then a WK?

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Not wanting to derail but does anyone else think Cegorach may actually be the Deceiver (C'Tan)?

Yes and no. I think i have a solid theory which i put on this thread, page 2. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/632815.page By no means definitive, but it fits into my personal fan-hammer.

As for the Solitaire he fits right in with my null-deployment Dark Eldar list. Nothing on the board at the start of the game, everything should be on by turn 2. And with the Solitaire being so dam fast, he should be able to be a threat to a lot of the board due to Blitz so he can make his charge along with the rest of my scary stuff ala Dark Artisan's and Grotesques. He is also rather sexy, and i REALLY loved Motley. So for me it's a no-brainer. The Harlequins themselves? That will depend on that fancy new transport of theirs, if the Enigma's of the Black Library help them out and how the Shadowseer works.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?

I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p


For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?

I guess that I missed something.
The rules for the Solitaire are out?
I know this guy very well from the Gav Thorpe codex.
He has been a one man wrecking machine with 13 attacks on the charge.

The rules are available for Troupes and Solitaries in WD53. However, it does not have the datasheet for the transport option, nor the special relics that the Solitaire/Troupe Master can take.

Niiru wrote:
Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?

I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p


For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?

Nah, the requirement to get them into combat is where they are terrible. CC is so bad for the points to damage ratio in this edition its almost laughable. The solitaire isn't that great, at 12 attacks on the charge vs marines he kills a whopping 3 marines putting him at 50pts per marine kill, where as say eldar guardians are 36pts per marine kill and do it at a 19 to 24" distance. Really the solitaire is better suited at stripping hull points off tanks, 1 from throwing a haywire, 1 from the caress and one from the kiss, that way he is actually earning back his point investment, trusting he isn't gunned down by bolters or lasguns, because even with the 3++ T3 and 3 wounds is junk.

Nevermind.

Uh, that's exactly what it says in WD--and the WD releases have been lifted from the Codices in the past.

Some specific parts of the rules(such as Warlord traits) have been omitted but nothing has actually been "wrong"

I would also love to feild them with my dark Angels as a cool offbeat allies

I'm personally not sold on the Blitz. You have to use what you roll instead of your normal 12" movement, and when you consider an average d6 roll of 3.5, it's more likely to be bad for you until the last few turns of the game. Seems like its best use will be after a Hit & Run before a re-charge just to get the extra attacks. :/ It's just not reliable enough to be a really solid tactical option like, say, the Dreadknight's teleport.

That being said, the new Troupe rules really excite me. Harlies used to basically be 22 points each, since the Kiss was nearly mandatory. Now, I see them as being 23 points, with the Caress as the weapon of choice (the new Kiss isn't really that good). So, for one point, they get to be Troops, get an even better melee weapon (one of the best in the game on Troops right now), gain Fear, gain the effect of assault grenades on the charge (new Flip Belt rules), 2+ LoS, a dedicated transport option, bigger squad size, the option for haywire grenades, and unseen wargear options for the Troupe Leader. 0_0 That's insane. These blitzing murder clowns are going to be the new standard for lightning fast assault armies.

I'm liking the harlequin's embrace too. I agree the kiss isn't so great now it was replaced more or less by caress.

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm liking the harlequin's embrace too. I agree the kiss isn't so great now it was replaced more or less by caress.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the developer's thought process was on the new Kiss... there just seems to be no situation in which it's better than the Caress.

The Embrace looks nice on paper, but the more I work through the math the less I like it. Harlequins, with only their 5++, are going to have an incredible need to eliminate return attack in order to survive, and the Caress just seems so much more reliable in that regard. Skipping two whole phases of dice rolling (To Wound and Armor) is just so strong, and it seems to make the Embrace really struggle for relevance against anything 3+.

I don't know... is there some situation I'm missing that makes an Embrace worth taking over a Caress in an all-comers list?

 Doomaflatchi wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I'm liking the harlequin's embrace too. I agree the kiss isn't so great now it was replaced more or less by caress.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the developer's thought process was on the new Kiss... there just seems to be no situation in which it's better than the Caress.

The Embrace looks nice on paper, but the more I work through the math the less I like it. Harlequins, with only their 5++, are going to have an incredible need to eliminate return attack in order to survive, and the Caress just seems so much more reliable in that regard. Skipping two whole phases of dice rolling (To Wound and Armor) is just so strong, and it seems to make the Embrace really struggle for relevance against anything 3+.

I don't know... is there some situation I'm missing that makes an Embrace worth taking over a Caress in an all-comers list?

I think it's more for light armoured hordes compared to the caress which is after power armour and terminators probably. It's probably too situational compared to the caress.

Well lets run some math for a guide.

a 10 man unit of Harlies is 225 to 255 with either all kisses, embraces, or all caresses, and haywire grenades on the squad leader.

If you manage to get them unscathed into combat, and that's a big if, you'll do the following:

Against 10 marines:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 6 dead at I10, followed by 41 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds, 4 more dead at I6. All dead with no swings back.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 6 dead followed by 31 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3 more dead.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 11 wounds, 3 more dead.

Against say 20 guardsmen:
Embraces: 20 hits, 17 wounds, 11 dead, followed by 41 attacks, 27 hits, 18 wounds, 12 more dead.
Kisses: 10 kiss attacks, 7 hits, 6 dead. 31 other attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 10 dead.
Caresses: 41 attacks. 6 autodead, 22 other hits, 15 wounds, 10 more dead.


Against tanks (I wont bother with kisses as they clearly wont be as good as others). Assume 1 HP gone from the Haywire grenade too. Anything with av 10 back armour will suffer 4 glances on average for a total of 5Hps before adding the specials

Embraces (remember hammer of wrath hits the side you are assaulting) :
Av10: 20 hits, 6 pens 4 glances
Av11: 20 hits, 3 pens, 3 glances
Av12: 20 hits, 3 glances
Av13 and 14: N/A

Caresses: All Av types: 41 attacks, 6 glances.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Not wanting to derail but does anyone else think Cegorach may actually be the Deceiver (C'Tan)?

Yes and no. I think i have a solid theory which i put on this thread, page 2. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/632815.page By no means definitive, but it fits into my personal fan-hammer.

As for the Solitaire he fits right in with my null-deployment Dark Eldar list. Nothing on the board at the start of the game, everything should be on by turn 2. And with the Solitaire being so dam fast, he should be able to be a threat to a lot of the board due to Blitz so he can make his charge along with the rest of my scary stuff ala Dark Artisan's and Grotesques. He is also rather sexy, and i REALLY loved Motley. So for me it's a no-brainer. The Harlequins themselves? That will depend on that fancy new transport of theirs, if the Enigma's of the Black Library help them out and how the Shadowseer works.

Hate to break it to you, but this is technically an auto lose. The rules state that if at the end of any game turn (i.e. the end of each yours and the opponent's turn 1) you have no models on the board, you automatically lose. You just need to have at least one model on the board by the end of both player's turn 1,

DE have a formation that lets them deep strike 2 units of Wracks in Venoms on turn 1. I believe it's key to their null deployment.

I did the same math-hammer as Ravenous D the other day leading me to the assumption that the Embrace is far and away the best all-round choice, especially as it's 3pts per model cheaper than the caress.

Assuming my maths was correct it's only against 2+ armour that it favours the Caress and that is negated to level by the 5++ if we're talking TEQ.

Embraces: Would do around 5.1 wounds vs 2+

Caresses: 6 autodead (4 with 5++), 2 more dead (1.2ish with 5++). Totalling 8 Wounds if no inv or around 5.2 with 5++.

It depends on what you're facing, caresses are the all around best against all targets (Heavy infantry, MCs and Any tank) where as embraces are great against medium and light infantry, MCs and tanks. 20 auto S6 hits on average is pretty huge.

The only thing I can see the use of kisses is on MCs and characters but the points investment just isn't worth it.

And all of this is dependent on their delivery method, because assault is god damn terrible for anything without a 12" move.

They'll be delivered on pseudo-Venoms, likely very fragile with a harlequin specific damage mitigator (not night shields or holo field I would think), but an assault transport fast skimmer nonetheless.

But since it should be able to transport a full Troupe, I guess it'll be slightly bigger than the Venom.

My big question right now is: how do they compare against the strong CC units like Wraiths or TWC ?

One thing I feel I should bring up regarding the Embrace/Caress comparisons is that the Embrace is HoW hits - so in order to get all of them you have to get every harlequin in BTB with the enemy.

When comparing the two, I just feel you should be careful about the assumption that 10 models will all get into BTB with their target. As, to me, this seems very optimistic if you're not fighting infantry-guard or an ork horde.

 Happyjew wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Ok so the new rules for the Harlequins Troupe and the Solitaire are now officially released... So what do people think so far?

I actually expected there to be a thread about this already, but it seemed not :p


For me, I'm re-reading the Solitaire's "Blitz" rule... Cos at first glance it seems somewhat crazy. Late game possible movement of up to 30", plus charge, and gets 10 attacks at WS9.... Whut? That's got to be scary, surely?

I guess that I missed something.
The rules for the Solitaire are out?
I know this guy very well from the Gav Thorpe codex.
He has been a one man wrecking machine with 13 attacks on the charge.

The rules are available for Troupes and Solitaries in WD53. However, it does not have the datasheet for the transport option, nor the special relics that the Solitaire/Troupe Master can take.

Thanks. Good to know.
I'll pick mine up next Saturday.

Maybe just me having a moment, but what does:

-May take one item from the Enigmas of the Black Library list.

Refer to?
page 27 of the WD? Or an items list not yet released? (WD54?)